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Gordon Walton - are you the one who brought us Trammel?

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The reason I related it to the browser game specifically is that game is 'open world' PvP were crafters can lose their stuff to PvPers. 

 

The game is interesting in that the crafters actually have quite a lot of power compared to PvPers... even during war time.  This is not a game mechanic - but a social standard set by the gamers themselves.

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Its been a long time since Uo pre trammel .

 

I was one of those PvP'ers that left and came back after trammel was released . The Game was so different after that the pvp and danger was gone felucia was a ghost town ... even there wasn't dangerous it was so unpopulated .

 

But its realy time for a new MMORPG with all the elements in place . I think the recent trend for survival games and even minecraft has shown a change in attitudes over the recent years people who were happy to be pandered to before by thempark games are now seeing the appeal of a game where you can fail . Lets have a real mmorpg where everything is done by the players ... from tying a rock to a stick for your first weapon , to building massive citys with player trading centers and  housing .

Tyrant likes this

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The one thing I hope Crowfall addresses that UO never did: Symbiosis.

 

It's absolutely imperative for the long-term sustainability of the product that the diversity of playstyles you choose to attract (no matter what an individual's personal proclivities gravitate towards) serves a purpose that is not only meaningful to those who prefer it, but who's role is plainly obvious to the ecosystem of the world, and vital in the support and life-cycle of the others even if only through transitive properties. 

 

This. It was largely true for SB as well. There has to be an avenue for the different playstyles to coexist. There has to be something else besides PvP. Professions and crafting need to be an exclusive part of the game. There needs to be a choice to become a PvE player, and those players need to be relevant (This is not a pitch for instances or safe zones). The PvE players could become an integral part of the world economy (For SBers, no spam rolling forges). In other words, make all worthwhile gear (weapons, armor, potions etc) player craftable only. PvP builds should be extremely limited in their ability to craft, just as crafters will be very limited in their ability to PvP. Save the Sheep!

thayn, amaziah aryeh and shadow2015 like this

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The Social Mechanics for Shadowbane, began to mirror that of UO, however the games limitations and the lack of some updated content/support started it's death spiral as well.  I am sure there were many other factors.  I do know that when I finally asked myself what I really wanted out of online gaming it was a deeper richer experience full of immersion and realistic consequences where my choices really matters and I could for real friendships.  PvP does all of that, and Wolfpack was always on the right trail, but Shadowbane needed more content or support then it got, and the Clans needed a reason realistic enough to fight for.

 

I wonder how the Ex-Wolfpackers are seen by those who were not involved in the production of Shadowbane, How would you Gordon describe Todd's gaming ideologies, does your background and his mesh well?  What I mean to say is I am curious about you guys gaming debates, we here in the community complain and argue all the time, because we are all so distant right now.  However you guys all work together, I'll bet you some of those discussions are epic and the differences in ideology become far more apparent. 

Sinij likes this

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Holy crap this is epic. I wish we could have this discussion with Smedley next.

Okay, so a few things that really stoof out to me. First:

[open world FFA pvp] was clearly driving away between 70+% of all the new players that tried the game within 60 days.

Wouldn't we like to see Crowfall be a strong force in the industry, giving some backbone to other developers by showing them that they don't HAVE to be a wow clone? Eve Online is still in the process of learning this, and you can track their success at bringing in people who don't like FFA pvp. As they make it more *fun* for "carebears" every patch or so, the game get's more subscribers.

Without the "sheep to shear" the hard core PvP'ers were disenfranchised.  They didn't like preying on each other (hard targets versus soft targets), and they became a smaller minority in the overall game.

And this is the root of the issue. People who like 'hardcore' pvp seem to frequently seek out 'sheep' to kill. They like to brag about how cool they are, their K/D ratio and all that, but they are just MMOBullies picking on the weak. If 'hardcore' pvp'ers matched themselves against others who LIKE pvp and left the 'carebears' alone, games like UO, SB, and Eve would have toppled Blizzard a long time ago (IMHO). Unfettered, predatory, 1-sided, and non-consensual PVP only HURTS games.

We were not successful in bringing back the (literally)100's of thousands of players who had quit due to the unbridled PvP in the world (~5% of former customers came back to try the new UO, but very few of them stayed).  We discovered that people didn't just quit UO, they divorced it in a very emotional way.

This is why CF has to get this right, right out of the gate, and why it's seeming more and more unlikely that open world, FFA pvp will be in CF. Yay!

If I had the chance to do it again, (and we had different fiscal and time constraints), we would have done something more like keeping the current current worlds with the original ruleset (like we later did with the Seige Perilous shard, which was too late in my view), and make new shards with a more PvE ruleset

Enter Crowfall... their chance to do it right the first time.

We are specifically making our game for players who will like the kind of experience we will create, not trying to cast a wide net to get a mass market audience.  We want the folks who will appreciate an intense gaming experience with real risk, winning *and* losing.  While we want as many players who are engaged in our game as possible, we won't need millions of players to make our game work.

At the end, I'm thinking that there will be Open world zones where FF pvp will reign, but that there will be a lot of territory for 'carebears' to run around and have fun. Maybe even completely separate servers!

Edited by Toxophile
amaziah aryeh and shadow2015 like this

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Ask me about the NGE when it's been 15 years.   :)   

 

Saddest day in my MMO history. 

 

It's a sad fact of most game development that changes which are bad for a specific game are made due to financial concerns. This has lead us to a more homogenized game experience where it has become more important to create accessibility than quality of game experience. 

 

Ask any long term MMO player what their greatest memories are and they'll generally respond with something that came out of one of those inaccessible systems.

 

The entire reason I started playing MMOs was listening to a friend describe a scenario his father experienced in EQ1. I believe it went something like "My father was traveling with a party of his friends, and they were all archers, when a goblin jumped out onto the road and they all shot it dead." When it comes down to it that's not much to write home about but in games back in '99 that was a phenomenal story. 

However if my friend had been watching his father play an MMO in 2008 and described what he saw I suspect it would have had much more to do with what this character looked like, the items he had, and the story of a quest he completed and far less about who his was with. In that way it would sound much like any other game and I likely wouldn't have bothered getting into it.

 

My experiences in SWG were very similar. I wrote bios for my character based on experiences I had with other players in game. Not about what I got or what I achieved on my own. I interacted with other players every day. I had networks of friends and contacts. I even hunted Jedi on a Bounty Hunter before probe droids worked and this was all through social means and personal knowledge. I knew which Jedi belonged to which guilds and where their home towns were. At one point I tracked a Jedi down to his home town and killed him while he was AFK. Sure it's not honorable but I was a bounty hunter. 

Post NGE, that all went away. When I logged into SWG I played through some stories, completed some content, maybe spoke with a couple friends who were still around, but nothing I did used social connections any longer.

 

However this is also the very reason I'm watching Crowfall. Right from the point when I read this wasn't a game for everyone I was onboard to at least see which way it goes. Making the best game for a few people responsibly, IMO, is always a more noble goal than trying to make a decent game for everyone. 

Edited by Django
mctan and Tyrant like this

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Great dicussion thread. I always think back to UO fondly as it was my first MMO. Back in 2007, I was writing freelance for a magazine and they asked me to do a 10yr anniversary article for UO. I reactivated my old account and fired up the character I abandoned for EverQuest long ago. I wandered around, killed a few things, checked out some of the places I used to hunt PKs with my still active guild and got lost in some memories. The game was different but was still familiar enough to me that I remembered how to play. After playing for a little while I had my story.

 

Your first MMO is like your first girlfriend. You have fond memories of all the nice things you did together, maybe even some of the naughty things, but as time goes on you forget a lot of the bad things. Until one day, many years later, you call her up and go out to lunch. After spending some time together it all comes back to you and you remember why she is your EX girlfriend.

 

Trammel didn't kill UO.

 

The bugs (remember people walking around in death robes with a smithy hammer one shotting people?)

The third party hack programs (UO Assist, UO extreme, others)

The great notoriety wipe and addition of faction warfare (the prelude to Trammel)

The deteriorating community

 

Those things were killing UO long before Trammel came about. If anything, the addition of Trammel thinned the heard of douchebags that were killing the community and created a game experience a greater percentage of players could enjoy. As a business decision, it was an idea that saved a dying game. A game that is still played today. Trammel killed UO for those who liked to prey on the less skilled players and take their stuff, then it killed it for players like me who used to kill the players who killed the less skilled players.

 

The assumption that one patch or one update can kill a game is unrealistic. In reality it's an accumulation of things that kill a game. As a community, we're looking for entertainment. We all have our criteria for picking a game to play but we're looking to become someone different for a little while. Not all of us are the hardcore "What Ho!" role players, but we are all role playing someone in a game. We're not project managers, sales people, cops, lawyers, or whatever it is you do. We're G'rthuk the orc warrior going to slay the dragon. When the gaming experience becomes less than what we expect, we start to grumble. When we grumble, others grumble and so on. Then the community fails and the game dies.

 

I don't think anyone is expecting a game to be 100% perfect for everyone and if game developer tries to make that game they will fail. What I do know is that MMO gamers want to be enterianed and in the end, be treated like paying customers. If you can come up with a game concept that will keep people entertained and challenged then you have the first part of the equation. The next part is keeping them satisfied enough to retain them. If you can create a gaming experience that there is a synergy between PVE and PVP and find a way to maintain that community you have a recipe for success.

 

I'm glad that my guildmate pointed me to this website, I will be keeping an eye on this one.

I mostly agree.

I am especially wary of the homepage for Crowfall, where it is stated that "we're doing something new".

Every time I read a sentence like that, I think to myself  "what was done before was not bad.. it was just mismanaged".

 

 

 

Interesting to finally see this reply.  I've been waiting years for it but over those years my understanding of what happened, compared to what would happen anyway, changed.

Personally, I'm of the mind that Trammel was just a scapegoat.   

 

Ultima Online was always going to change because it was during a time of 'revolution' in online gaming.  It was a 2D game in a world striving to become 3D.  It was born in an era of 56k modems and the idea of voice communication was a new and relatively unknown.  Scripting and automation would ruin UO later anyway.

The way we played games was changing.   

Trammel was a bad thing in the end, but it only sped the process up.

 

 

For me, Darkfall Online was and still is, the best game since UO.   I recall the memories of the game in the same fashion I do for UO.  Obviously crowning myself King of Agon on the EU server for building the Nithron Throne world wonder (Some enemies love it when I mention it) and then the subsequent huge war that would follow, due to the amount of people we disgruntled off achieving that goal. The espionage, the propaganda on the forums, the bloodshed, the sleepless nights, the resource management and logistics, leaders delegating work and commands before during and after sieges... all falling on the players to organise and run.

 

Darkfall catered to the new way we play games now but still had the engaging gameplay and vital interactions required and delivered in the likes of UO.

The more your players have to interact with each other to play the game, the more the game will become playable, I feel.

 

I really hope we can tap into the beautiful skilful combat that Darkfall had too. Truly a gem in the MMO world if you ask me.   Very competitive, but legends were born and broken.  Even a current Fnatic CSGO team member played and enjoyed Darkfall because of its combat.  Pronax.

 

Getz likes this

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Well in any case, im looking forward to experiencing all the new and unique colossal mistakes this game will produce.

 

Cheers!

Edited by foomerang

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Excellent responses from:  Lucius, Sirwilliampd, Armageddon, and Toxophile.  100% agree with you guys.

 

I wish more people could understand (or at least stop bashing) the idea that lots of people enjoy both PvP and PvE.

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This is a very interesting thread.

 

Not sure if this is a common or rare type, but I liked being an "adventurer" for lack of a better term...  wandering around, exploring and doing PVE but with the constant threat of the wolves in the population. GM'd hiding pretty fast and was damn good at using it to escape. That's an experience I want to recapture with this game...  going out into a world of many different types of players and never knowing what that next passerby would do. But having some safe havens to check in to (towns) was important.

Getz likes this

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No server should be free of the threat of pvp, or if there is, then NOTHING on the server should be of any value to players/game economy. If you want a PVP-less server, it should be there for tutorials, base quests, and dps dummies. You simply cannot justify anything of "value", which could potentially effect the economy, being farmable by bots in a zone free of pvp danger. At minimum, you make it akin to EVE 1.0 space, where gankers pay the price but so does the AFK bot Ice Miner. PVP-Off zones are an open invitation for gold farmers and bots to set up shop and custard your currency.

 

Greifers of low level toons in the 1.0 space safe server would be disincentivized from pvp merely bc of durability loss on high lvl gear coupled with zero return of investment for killing a worthless scrub thats doing his tutorial mission. HOPEFULLY, the other zones will offer plenty of meaningful things to do, that your play time will be better spent in the pvp zones as opposed to greifing scrubbies for no reward.

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Excellent responses from:  Lucius, Sirwilliampd, Armageddon, and Toxophile.  100% agree with you guys.

 

I wish more people could understand (or at least stop bashing) the idea that lots of people enjoy both PvP and PvE.

No one is bashing PVE.

 

PVE is more meaningful when the threat of PVP looms.

PVE is more rewarding when by virtue of PVP, you deny others the fruit of the PVE encounter.

PVE servers where PVP is turned off invites nothing but bots and farmers to ruin your economy.

 

 

PVE servers with PVP-OFF rulesets have ZERO PLACE in this game. 

mctan, Bombastuss, Sinij and 6 others like this

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No one is bashing PVE.

 

PVE is more meaningful when the threat of PVP looms.

PVE is more rewarding when by virtue of PVP, you deny others the fruit of the PVE encounter.

PVE servers where PVP is turned off invites nothing but bots and farmers to ruin your economy.

 

 

PVE servers with PVP-OFF rulesets have ZERO PLACE in this game. 

 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

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@GordonWalton 

 

My question is this... Are you saying you won't be making this same mistake when the accountant calls you because all the carebears are quitting in this new game of yours?  

Edited by artkil
gethin likes this

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Good question and thanks for response. The early rush of full loot, killing sprees, and finally losing was intense. Rinse and repeat then trammal which sent me packing to anew game (rallos zek eq).

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@GordonWalton 
 
My question is this... Are you saying you won't be making this same mistake when the accountant calls you because all the carebears are quitting in this new game of yours?  

 

 

I would have thought my answer to this would already be clear from what I wrote.   We'd be better off building a new game for that audience, than trying to modify a game in midstream to accommodate a different audience.  It might work financially but it would make the game it less of what it was.  Believe it or not, people that make games are not strictly motivated by money.

 

P.S. I think I am the accountant for ArtCraft btw.

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