Cragor

Combat improvement suggestions

16 posts in this topic

I purchased the early access today and don't have that much knowledge on all ability mechanics yet, but these are my thoughts what should be improved based on playing ranger for one day.

 

Weapon swapping:

I've had a lot of trouble with weapon swapping. The problem is that it doesn't have high enough priority in the ability queue. Usually when I try to tap weapon swap quickly and use an ability immediately after swapping I can't because I was in the middle of an animation while pressing weapon swap and the button press didn't register. This leads to the second problem that I have with the combat. Also tapping weapon swap is something that you can't reliably do since the swap doesn't have a cooldown. It's easy to double tap it and end up in the same weapon stance as you were before the swap.

 

Animation cancelling:

The ranger has 2 channel abilities that you can't cancel any other way than using dodge roll or using the heal ability. (these are the only ways I know of) Casting these channel abilities at the wrong time (Barrage and Archers stake in rangers case) make you as easy target as a training dummy unless you waste your stamina or healing skill to "stun break" yourself.

 

How would I fix these?

 

-I would make weapon swap top priority ability which cancels all other actions. This would help with switching between stances fluidly.

-Having the ability to keybind and swap abilities on the action bar would decrease the amount of misuse of skills on keys which have essential abilities on one weapon set and very situational abilities on another. (I know this will come sooner or later. Just something I'm really looking forward)

-Being able to cancel channel abilities with movement.

-Add maybe 0,5 second or 1 second cooldown on weapon swap. This way you will never accidentally double tap weapon sets and go back and forth between them.

 

These are my biggest gripes from my first day of play. What do you think about these suggestions? Have the same things annoyed you as well?

 

EDIT: I've read some of your opinions regarding animation cancelling and I've probably used a wrong term on what meant with it. I don't want animation cancelling which lets you shave frames of animations for higher dps. I want cast/ability cancellation. Either cancel abilities before they do any damage or cancel channel abilities early so that it will only deal a partial of its damage. I hope this makes my suggestion a bit clearer.

Edited by Cragor
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I seriously hope animation canceling isnt a thing like it is in ESO, that is such a bad mechanic.

I agree, however I get where he is coming from. Doing an animation cancel in order to do something else, like a defensive reaction/dodge is OK. Doing an animation cancel in order to reduce the frames of animation in order to attack faster once the attack hits, is a problem.

 

I think if you merely made some things override others, in SOME circumstances, it could be a good thing. I think it just needs to be careful that once an attack HITS, you cant cancel it, if its PRIOR to the attack, you can.

 

Though TBH, I think this might require a good chunk of work for the DEVs....  

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I have a feeling we're going to have to just live with this one.  

 

Can any of you Crowfall veterans please tell me the following is completely wrong?:

 

  * Crowfall has long animations all over the place; they're here to stay

  * combat is intended to be "responsive", but intentionally slowed to allow "reaction alternatives"

  * only a subset of powers will be cancelable, using a small number of specific commands

  * hence some Archetype outputs will very much depend on your "skill" = ability to not only pick combos, but weave in frequent cancels regardless of the cancel skill's usual function, typically implemented using short mouse macros.  fail to master it and you'll spend your days in the graveyard.

 

I was never a huge fan of the obvious alternative - rapid animations and fixed cooldowns - during Tab-targeted games, since combat reduces to repetitive key sequences while staring at CD counters.  Such games make everyone play like healers watching HP bars.   But isn't it possible in a game like Crowfall to do without cryptic cancelation skills, or make a simple cancel mechanic ubiquitous?  Black Desert's cancels suck.  I can't remember what Tera used.  Never played ESO.

Edited by Dominate

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What I said about animation cancelling was a bit misleading. I don't want animation cancelling where you can shave off a few frames of animations to increase dps. I want to be able to just stop using skills in the middle of a cast. I would compare it to the way GW2 does this.
If they would give us an options to be able to cancel casting, they can't have after animations on skills or at least give some global cooldown after the ability is finished to avoid animation cancel. Having a delay after a skill usage is why people animation cancel in the first place. There are ways to animation cancel already in this game. You can use your heal or dodge to animation cancel.

I just don't want people to get punished for misusing a channel abilities. Better word would have been ability cancel instead of animation cancel.

 

Edit: Grammar

Edited by Cragor

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At the moment weapon swapping feels really clunky. The way weapon swapping is done now makes it really hard to use it efficiently. There are 2 scenarios which I've had a lot of trouble with and I shortly talked about this in the original post as well.

 

1. Pressing weapon swap once and a skill immediately after.

When I press the weapon swap key, I wan't it to switch weapon sets. There are situations where you might be in the middle of some animation because you keep spamming your buttons so that there is no downtime between abilities.When you just quickly press weapon swap and want to do a skill on the other weapon set this leads to you using a skill on the wrong weapon set. This is insanely annoying when in conjunction of having no good way to cancel the ability cast.

 

2. Spamming weapon swap so that you can make sure the game registers it after another skills animation is over.

Because there is no cooldown on switching weapon sets, it's really easy to accidentally press it twice and go back to the starting position and use a skill on the wrong weapon set.

 

This is a problem that makes the game artificially slower. I don't want to take a 1 second pause after each skill to be 100% sure I am actually switching to the right weapon set. This is easily fixed by giving the swap ability a small cooldown (There is an animation where you switch weapons and you can change your weapons million times before the character animation even finishes. At least make the cooldown as long as the character animation is or something idk.) or making it top priority skill such as dodge and heal skills are. Preferably do both in my opinion.

 

I've been playing only on a ranger so far, so I'm not quite sure how big of a problem this is on other classes. I'm calling this mechanic a weapon swap because you literally swap weapons on the ranger. Seems like at least some classes have some kind of stance swaps as well. If there is an official term for this, please let me know.

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At the moment weapon swapping feels really clunky. The way weapon swapping is done now makes it really hard to use it efficiently. There are 2 scenarios which I've had a lot of trouble with and I shortly talked about this in the original post as well.

 

1. Pressing weapon swap once and a skill immediately after....

 

2. Spamming weapon swap so that you can make sure the game registers it after another skills animation is over...

 

 

I fully agree with this stuff. I played druid all weekend. This is my first time getting to test. I was incredibly satisfied with most of combat, except for these aspects.

 

Felt too easy to switch and switch back, before you ever switched. Also felt too easy to feel like you had switched, to realize you never had. I know there's the sounds upon switch, but I mean... I understand the intent isn't to make this a "twitchy" game necessarily, but faster swaps on bars would help a lot. I have yet to play ranger, but for a "support" class like druid, I feel like these swaps being faster would help a lot. Your support power is already limited by essence burn. I'd like to be able to swap faster to instantly drain and switch back, or to be able to actually hit someone with the 4 ability on the death bar. The slow switch combined with the time it takes for the 4 ability to pop the orbs gives opponents infinite time to realize what's going on.

 

Also for things like the druids AoE heal (4) on the life bar. There is a considerable amount of delay between casting it, and when you can actually use another skill. Some kind of "black out" on the skills on your bar bar (like it does when a skill is on cooldown already) until\ skill use is available again, would be awesome. I know back in the UO days there were plenty of delays you just had to learn the timing for, but something to speed that learning process up would be awesome.

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What I said about animation cancelling was a bit misleading. I don't want animation cancelling where you can shave off a few frames of animations to increase dps. I want to be able to just stop using skills in the middle of a cast. I would compare it to the way GW2 does this.

If they would give us an options to be able to cancel casting, they can't have after animations on skills or at least give some global cooldown after the ability is finished to avoid animation cancel. Having a delay after a skill usage is why people animation cancel in the first place. There are ways to animation cancel already in this game. You can use your heal or dodge to animation cancel.

 

I just don't want people to get punished for misusing a channel abilities. Better word would have been ability cancel instead of animation cancel.

 

Edit: Grammar

 

I think being able to cancel certain abilities with a dodge roll or something, with the penalty that the skill goes on CD and mana is used, and obviously the dodge roll goes on CD, is a good idea. We don't want to make it too attractive or too easy an option to use because people should be thinking about what they're doing and suffer the consequences of a bad choice. But sometimes you do really need to be able to get out of something and being able to do that selectively in a fight is a good, skill based, and fun choice.

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dodge cancel is fine imo i mean weaving attacks like in eso

 

Although I agree with this, I think tray swap definitely needs to anim cancel. It feels very clunky right now, the OP described it well. I completely agree with him on tray swap, I suggested this a few times before. 

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Im still not completely sure why there is a tray swap anyway.

 

Why not just leverage the power combos that seem more incidental to replace cast times then actual functional. 

 

The only time i have ever really seen tray swapping work was for a stealth class that had a stealth bar and a out-of stealth bar. A quick response game like this the tray swap just feels out of place.

 

 

Edit: Blair actually addressed tray swapping indicating they were as fast as they could be with out causing bugs.

Edited by Vectious
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Let me rephrase, if its weaving attacks like ESO where you do an attack cancel the animation into another attack but the first attack still goes through, THAT is a bad mechanic.Aion also had attack weaving like that. In GW2 you could animation cancel but if the animation didn't go through neither did the attack, you could press ESO dodge or tray swap in that game to cancel and its fine.

 

this is bad animation cancel

 

There is several ways to animation cancel in ESO but whatever you cancel still goes through and that is the problem.

Edited by krevra
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I purchased the early access today and don't have that much knowledge on all ability mechanics yet, but these are my thoughts what should be improved based on playing ranger for one day.

 

Weapon swapping:

I've had a lot of trouble with weapon swapping. The problem is that it doesn't have high enough priority in the ability queue. Usually when I try to tap weapon swap quickly and use an ability immediately after swapping I can't because I was in the middle of an animation while pressing weapon swap and the button press didn't register. This leads to the second problem that I have with the combat. Also tapping weapon swap is something that you can't reliably do since the swap doesn't have a cooldown. It's easy to double tap it and end up in the same weapon stance as you were before the swap.

 

 

It's not just you man. The tray swap is awkward and slow and it's a problem. Not a game-breaking problem, but its tiresome.

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Edit: Blair actually addressed tray swapping indicating they were as fast as they could be with out causing bugs.

 

True. In my opinion, that being the case, your proposed solution is very attractive. If it doesn't work well then don't cling to it just because it's different.

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True. In my opinion, that being the case, your proposed solution is very attractive. If it doesn't work well then don't cling to it just because it's different.

 

Except tray swapping isn't even different. So many games do it these days lol. Honestly just give us more keybinds and call it a day. Learning to keybind isn't rocket science. If casuals can play TERA in droves with 30+ keybinds then a bunch of PvPers can play Crowfall with 10-20.

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@Cragor, thanks for the clarification.  I like your solution.  The CD solves the double tap problem.  The swap's cancel can be harmless and it makes the CD predictable.

 

I hope the assumptions are right.

 

--------------

 

For those interested in the larger issue of Animations & Cancels:  that Blair quote is worrisome.  It might suggest that Animations and Dodges will suffer a similar fate -- lengthy, not really designed for reaction times, and unequal among Archetypes.  If so, we might be better off asking for a simple, ubiquitous cancel in place asap.   E.g. the middle mouse button.  

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