Anthrage

Crowfall too gear-based?

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Gear only impacts out going damage currently.  None of the mitigations appear to work or update correctly in the paper doll.  I would hold off on judging what "gear" looks like until the vessel system is implemented.

This is important context to add, we are still in early testing with a lot of systems not up and operational.

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"designed very carefully" I am having this same sentiment of many of the game system related to crafting and gear in the game. 

 

Currently there is a lot of exponential development of stats through crafting and I somewhat expect vessels to fall into the same system. A system like this can go a miss if there is just an extra step that allows more growth of certain stats and propels them to OP status. Once in the OP status then your vessel access concerns would be significantly emphasizes if you need special materials to make them.

 

So the gear system they have is very diverse but also volatile, a small tweak could make 1 thing OP and kill the diversity the system should be bringing. To keep gear impactful and diverse without messing up PvP is going to take a delicate hand in balance. 

 

This balance point of gear brings up the other issue I have, that vessels and archetypes should have more focus on specific goals and be generally available while the disciplines add the extra layer. In this case you would be able to pull the archetype for the situation you need instead of requiring a discipline that you might not have access to because of the gearing situation. I would prefer to see the skill tree reflect Disciplines instead of archetypes Train three+ disciplines and archetypes are open ended.

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Gear only impacts out going damage currently.  None of the mitigations appear to work or update correctly in the paper doll.  I would hold off on judging what "gear" looks like until the vessel system is implemented.

Mitigation works. I have tested it and seen the damage numbers change when wearing/not wearing armor. You won't see the mitigation amounts on your gear reflected in the paper doll because there is a hit location system. Most attacks will hit your chest unless they target a specific area of the body, like ground targeted effects hitting boots. The single number on the paper doll can't show you varying mitigation numbers based on different armor slots. Hopefully in the future we will have tooltips on the paper doll stats, and the tooltip for the mitigation numbers will have a breakdown by armor slot. I'd also like to have a much better indication of where stats are coming from than what the vessel enhancement window currently provides. Show in the mitigation stat tooltip a breakdown of where the stats are coming from (X amount from skill 1, Y amount from skill 2, Z amount from armor class, etc.).

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As mentioned, durability should handle quite a bit of the problem, Vessels included.   The devs have so many factors they can tweak to make Durability paramount, incl. gear availability, death frequency and penalties, maximum durability, gear store rules, dedicated crafter viability, etc.  It's going to be interesting to see how fast the crunch for replacement gear and node control slows down entire CWs.   Maybe we'll end up fighting with sticks.

 

The great side of the Vessel "gear" system, other than just making crafting more colorful, is that it partially compensates for the weak Training system.  Some would argue that Training has to be somewhat capped, to encourage new player participation.  With Vessels, you can swap whole classes, customize with Disciplines on the fly, and force strategic decisions on training for multiple Vessels.  I think this should be expanded as much as development resources allow.  We may not see the best stuff until after the initial release, because variable Archetype powers are hard to balance.

 

Re the "1/3 passives, 1/3 gear, 1/3 skill"...  I agree that could be hard to accomplish if Vessels are considered just more gear.  Also, 1/3 of your power should not be determined by the current Passive tree -- stats obtained from length of play and minor customizations.  The "passive" power of vessels can be increased (stats & promotions), and the devs can even punch some Vessel power into "skill" by making them hard to obtain.  In fact, those ratios are probably just oversimplifications; the first 1/3 could have meant all passives and Archetype customizations from any source, the second 1/3 random drops & whole crafting economies, and the last all "skillful" work, incl. out of battle prep.  Who knows.

 

My 2 cents.

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I didn't feel that this thread really understood the point I was making about gear, SOLELY in the context of Vessels, but it looks like after the livestream, a few people arrived at the same area of concern or questioning in this thread. Now that we have a better idea of just how important Vessels will be, and their nature as gear, is there more to say on this topic?

 

Setting aside whether too much importance or potential advantage is embodied in Vessels, how about the very high value the related crafters will have in the marketplace, in guilds and the game overall? In fact both ends resource supply and crafting loop are going to be hugely important, so much so that I feel a group that is top tier in terms of combat capability but lower tier in terms of their gathering/crafting might lose out to a group that is middle tier in all areas.

 

Maybe not that impressive an insight, but I think we all have a better idea now of how significant Vessel creation and possession will be.

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I agree. In fact I'm not even sure how this is going to play out, and I don't think the devs do either. This is a pretty radically different set of systems connected in such a way as to make for a whole new dynamic, across the board. In a strategic, competitive sense, there are so many chokepoints competing groups can attack a rival at, it's a bit overwhelming. Tactical, economic, production, resource, animals, even food...it's going to be radically chaotic, and yes, very very interesting.

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I agree. In fact I'm not even sure how this is going to play out, and I don't think the devs do either. This is a pretty radically different set of systems connected in such a way as to make for a whole new dynamic, across the board. In a strategic, competitive sense, there are so many chokepoints competing groups can attack a rival at, it's a bit overwhelming. Tactical, economic, production, resource, animals, even food...it's going to be radically chaotic, and yes, very very interesting.

 

Dang it, you are making me upset I can't play the finished game yet!

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The thing about gear that is different in crowfall than other MMO's is that the gear we have is not permanent.  In other MMO's once you get the best gear in the game, you have it forever.  In crowfall, you have it until you get ganked by a group of the enemy team and they loot it off your corpse (in certain campaigns at least).  There's also item decay that ensures you can only repair your equipment so many times.

 

So, gear will constantly be fluctuating.  If it takes 10 hours of gathering materials to craft a set of top tier gear, but only 2 hours to craft the next best set of gear I would probably go with the second best set simply because it may not be worth spending a huge amount of time getting the best gear when I know it will either be broken or stolen in the next week or so.

 

it's fine for someone ends up with an overpowered set of gear, they're only going to have it for so long.

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The thing about gear that is different in crowfall than other MMO's is that the gear we have is not permanent.  In other MMO's once you get the best gear in the game, you have it forever.  In crowfall, you have it until you get ganked by a group of the enemy team and they loot it off your corpse (in certain campaigns at least).  There's also item decay that ensures you can only repair your equipment so many times.

 

So, gear will constantly be fluctuating.  If it takes 10 hours of gathering materials to craft a set of top tier gear, but only 2 hours to craft the next best set of gear I would probably go with the second best set simply because it may not be worth spending a huge amount of time getting the best gear when I know it will either be broken or stolen in the next week or so.

 

it's fine for someone ends up with an overpowered set of gear, they're only going to have it for so long.

Vessels are going to fall into a whole different spectrum on this issue. 

 

With most gear being part of the factory run process, there will be multiple copies of each type of top tier gear, where as with vessels being "hand crafted", those truly unique and powerful vessels are going to be harder to come by.

 

Given that state I would hope that the "life expectancy" of a vessel be much higher than that of standard equipment. If gear breaks on average within 20 deaths, and a run can make 20-40 copies that same gear, vessels should at least last a couple hundred, so there is a greater sense of value and importance in getting a great one. It should be something you run around in for weeks, or even an entire campaign, not something that burns out after a couple of conflicts.

 

I also wouldn't mind seeing a repair over time mechanic, so if you parked a vessel in a mausoleum, it would recover a couple of durability every day it wasn't used, and possibly had sacrifices and rituals preformed over it.  So you may want a great one to sit out a campaign in your EK, so it's available for a new campaign later.

 

That's just my opinion though.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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Remember that the whole point of campaigns is a mad scramble for resources.  Sure, players who are on a lot of the time in organized groups may be able to get a lot of the richest farming nodes early, but unless you happen to be in that ideal situation you're probably going to be working hard for resources so having dozens of spare pieces of equipment and vessels just sitting in your storage closet is unrealistic.

 

I remember the devs talking early on that it would even be possible to starve an opposing side to death as resources get depleted.  Hoard all the available food, raid enemy supply lines and steal or destroy all the food you can find.  When winter comes around and there no longer is any to gathering nodes then it becomes a battle of attrition, the side with the most supplies has a huge advantage.

 

So in a game where even apples are going to be a limited resource late game, I don't see people as being able to create mountains of spare gear for themselves.  I could be wrong but that's not how I saw the game as the devs described it.  And those few people that do hoard tons of gear for themselves at the expense of their team mates arn't helping their team win.  If their team loses then they don't even get to keep most of their loot due to the losing team's embargo on what they can bring out of the campaign.

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So, gear will constantly be fluctuating.  If it takes 10 hours of gathering materials to craft a set of top tier gear, but only 2 hours to craft the next best set of gear I would probably go with the second best set simply because it may not be worth spending a huge amount of time getting the best gear when I know it will either be broken or stolen in the next week or so.

 

it's fine for someone ends up with an overpowered set of gear, they're only going to have it for so long.

Until all of the other systems for teams, guilds, and merchants are set, there is no reason to think anyone but the most hardcore gamers would achieve the peak equipment.  The division between crating and combat skills would also help level things out.  One person trying to do to much would limit the maxes of a min/max strategy.

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The biggest question about vessels that I want to be answered is where disciplines and such factor into them. Like, a dedicated scout might invest in exploration and stealth and tracking and want to eke every bit of speed they could out of their vessel and disciplines and advantage/disadvantage combinations. It'd be neat to know how many of those numbers are attached to which parts of the character.

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The biggest question about vessels that I want to be answered is where disciplines and such factor into them. Like, a dedicated scout might invest in exploration and stealth and tracking and want to eke every bit of speed they could out of their vessel and disciplines and advantage/disadvantage combinations. It'd be neat to know how many of those numbers are attached to which parts of the character.

Disciplines will come in the form of runestones that you equip to your character (like the runestone harvesting tools).  You collect/craft them and switch them out as needed, they are not directly part of your vessel, which is only your base archetype.

 

It's possible that could change but that was the last I heard the devs talk about it

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Disciplines will come in the form of runestones that you equip to your character (like the runestone harvesting tools).  You collect/craft them and switch them out as needed, they are not directly part of your vessel, which is only your base archetype.

 

It's possible that could change but that was the last I heard the devs talk about it

I know how they're slated to work. I've even seen the spreadsheet detailing what some of them do. But my inner theorycrafter wants launch-day numbers, damnit! I WANT MY SQUIRREL TO WALK FASTER THAN YOUR HORSE RUNS.

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Yes, without a commander rune in shadowbane - u are custarded in a large scale siege combat against a stun priest for instant. And without resource items - u had no chance to compete in small scale PvP in shadowbane vs. a guy with resoucce items. It just create a larger gap between players who know the game mechanics related to items vs those who don`t have much sparetime to invest into the game and combat itself. 

I wish ACE keep it simple with mastery and future runes to get into the whole combat picture, but hard to master related to player skills. 

Edited by mythx

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