Soulreaver

The Ranger Toolkit and CC

23 posts in this topic

Back with another rant.... or what ever u want to call it.

 

My attempt to talk about something other that what weapons look like and if the Ranger has a Gerbil Pet following her around!

 

Seriously:

This will be my attempt to brainstorm the ranger class for idea, thoughts and possible consepts.

ATM the Ranger is viable and even with a lot of abilities that doesnt work she is strong.

 

Crowd Control available :

When looking at the various classes there are several versions of what could be considered a "Hard CC", meaning a Crowd Control that renders the target immobile for a certain amount of time : Knockups and downs. Stuns and dazes... and so on.

Then you have "Soft CC" which are slows and blind

 

* The Knight : Stun , Daze, Slow and Knockdown.

* The Confessor : Stun and Knockdown. Tornadoes just for the hell of it with the knockup.

* The Druid : Daze and Stun. Knockup from Wicked Winds

* The Duelist : Knockdown. Stun.

* The Legionaire : Knockdown, AoE pushback.

* The Myrmidon : Root and Knockup.

* The champion : Blind and Supress.

* The Ranger : Slow, Supress and Knockup (not working)

 

Thoughts :

I encourage group play so that the synergy of the classes compliment each other.... with that in mind there is a difference between nearly all of these powers and the rangers CC.

 

All except the Ranger it is the caster of the ability controls onto whom the CC is applied. Let me elaborate... (maybe Im over exadurating a little but bear with me).

 

The Ranger :

The only CC the ranger has are bombs (presently not reliably working) and the slow Stake applies.

 

Placing a bomb doesnt nessarily mean you CC anyone, let alone the target you want.

Placing a Stake doesnt mean you slow anything nor anyone with the current cast time.

 

The debate :

With the current kit, and assuming that bombs work, is the CC from the ranger a viable offensive/defensive set of tools?

 

Should/Would a different approach to CC for the ranger provide anything to the class? In that case which CC would seem applyable or would that make the class OP?

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I think once ranger gets out of the old combat system and everything works I think our stakes need to be looked at and needs to slow players down more and stop players from able to  just blink, fly or jump across it to get to us or other team members.

Only after that I think the basic kit for the ranger will be fine.

 

I cant think of much outside of a slowing effect that would suit a Ranger outside of a nock down but we have a Nock up which works great with Confessors and myrmidons. The reason I don't want to have another hard CC is because there are already a few archetypes that have them if and when they work. If we give the Ranger one like the current archetypes then we don't bring much different to the fight.

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I think overall skills need to be updated and changed across the board. Game has new tech now with the more recent Archetypes and players have gotten to try these for a while and kinda more or less pointed out all the issues with them and possible solutions. ACE has already stated they will move skills around and change others to make it feel right. Although i still think the games combat system needs to get slowed down a bit, way too spammy and fast pace for large scale combat. And no im not talking about lag etc, game seriously needs to get slowed down a little for large scale combat to work, as well as more reliable CC and more aoe CC to destroy them zergs.

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The bombs are a great way of CC, when in a scenario where it's follow up CC: Meaning once another class has used their CC; (knock down/stun/ what ever) chances of the knock up being used at the right time, actually has a chance of happening. On this I agree... They are also good for Zoneing.

 

Imo, I would adress the 2nd part of Forest Step.

It basically only has an offensive usage. Its preventing escapes since it is used after the teleport. This slow would be better used if it was on another Melee ability, and enableing the Ranger to -afterwards- step out of melee, and into ranged tray. It would be well suited to be part of the Disengage scenario if everything worked... Slow - Disengage. That would make sense. It doesnt at this time.

 

Stake :

The whole issue with stake is prely the cast time. 6 seconds, for an AoE slow that is avoidable as well as 100 (not the listed 200) attack power. Is rarely worth the time spend to put it down.

 

I dont think that the class needs a Hard CC. I think it needs control over the application of her CC.

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The bombs are a great way of CC, when in a scenario where it's follow up CC: Meaning once another class has used their CC; (knock down/stun/ what ever) chances of the knock up being used at the right time, actually has a chance of happening. On this I agree... They are also good for Zoneing.

 

Imo, I would adress the 2nd part of Forest Step.

It basically only has an offensive usage. Its preventing escapes since it is used after the teleport. This slow would be better used if it was on another Melee ability, and enableing the Ranger to -afterwards- step out of melee, and into ranged tray. It would be well suited to be part of the Disengage scenario if everything worked... Slow - Disengage. That would make sense. It doesnt at this time.

 

Stake :

The whole issue with stake is prely the cast time. 6 seconds, for an AoE slow that is avoidable as well as 100 (not the listed 200) attack power. Is rarely worth the time spend to put it down.

 

I dont think that the class needs a Hard CC. I think it needs control over the application of her CC.

 

Regarding her bombs, I would much prefer that the ranged trap applied a short duration stun or root, rather than a knockup (which last I checked it was failing to apply). Even when the knockup works, you can't actually use it to land more damage, as they are moving too fast to land an arrow, and they are out of melee range for you to attack them with your daggers.

 

I do realize that the knockup itself deals damage due to falling damage, but if they are knocked straight up, this damage is fixed as it can't be used to knock people off of walls. And, for those of you concerned about flavor, all you really need to do is change it from an explosive trap to a bear trap.

 

Secondly, I totally agree that her slow needs to be moved to a skill that isn't behind forest step. A short duration slow off of an attack that can only be used within a few seconds after a teleport that has a 45s cooldown is only useful in a very small set of situations, and can still be difficult to land in those cases.

 

I think moving the slow to another melee skill would be good, but I'd also like to see a short to medium duration slow be applied to targets of her trick shot, giving it a bit more utility outside the rare cases where there are 3 or more targets that are conveniently grouped up so that you can get the crit buff, as well as actually making the skill useful in 1v1 scenarios.

 

As for the Hard vs Soft CC debate, I agree that she doesn't need much hard cc, but I do think she needs some, as well as a bit more soft CC to back it up. She is, after all, one of the classes that is most dependent on CC in order to land damage, as she has no hit-scan abilities and is entirely projectile and hitbox based.

Edited by Raizex
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I do feel as if the Ranger is not as viable as most other Archetypes, I think this is due to some of the Ranger's Bow abilities.

 

Ricochet Shot: Hit one person with an arrow to hit another one nearby and another one. A decent ability but meh in 1v1

 

 

Explosive Trap: Place a bomb that explodes when  a nearby enemy gets close, knocking them up and doing damage.

This ability is the ability I have a problem with, i thought this ability would be awesome, but the knock up lifts them slightly and does practically no damage. Useless.

 

Stake: Long casting time to create an area of effect that increases range damage. Meh, this ability is okay but i personally would prefer something different.

 

Melee Abilities: The Melee is a little weak and needs some damage increase. In contrast the damage is supposed to come from the bow anyways, so I don't have too much complaints in that regard apart from the damage.   (but only by a little.)

 

TL;DR: I think the bomb should have the damage greatly increased and improve the knock up/away or change it into a knockdown because it is useless in its current state.

 

Alternatively, it would okay if it were a trap that roots the target instead such as a bear trap or vine trap.

 

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Well as Ranger is a specialist. I have never seen them as a great 1vs1 fighter but a great group fighter. Which is why they have always change many things about ranger.

 

Ricochet Shot has never been that great but does get better when you have higher training.

 

Explosive Trap has been played with so many times by the devs to the point it used to kill players when they where nocked up and great when combining with other archetypes like confessors and myrmidon.

 

stake could be good if they looked at how its CC worked and the plus damage it does.

 

Melee abilities have been  again played with by devs to find a good balance with. I remember for a few weeks plate melee rangers where the way to go. "Spin to win" 

 

ranger needs a lot of TLC but I don't see that happen till we get near the stalker and they really work on timing and hit boxes. With a bow we can do the most damage in game if we can hit anyways. So this could be why they have not done much with us as soon as they do fix things like hit boxes they will have to change our damage  and they just don't want to open that box just yet.

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Well as Ranger is a specialist. I have never seen them as a great 1vs1 fighter but a great group fighter. Which is why they have always change many things about ranger.

 

Ricochet Shot has never been that great but does get better when you have higher training.

 

Explosive Trap has been played with so many times by the devs to the point it used to kill players when they where nocked up and great when combining with other archetypes like confessors and myrmidon.

 

stake could be good if they looked at how its CC worked and the plus damage it does.

 

Melee abilities have been  again played with by devs to find a good balance with. I remember for a few weeks plate melee rangers where the way to go. "Spin to win" 

 

ranger needs a lot of TLC but I don't see that happen till we get near the stalker and they really work on timing and hit boxes. With a bow we can do the most damage in game if we can hit anyways. So this could be why they have not done much with us as soon as they do fix things like hit boxes they will have to change our damage  and they just don't want to open that box just yet.

 

You know what they say, "the squeaky wheel gets the grease." If we just pretend like everything is fine, they might never actually get around to giving the Ranger the TLC she deserves.

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I was thinking that small tweak would actually go a long way...

 

- Stake : Lower the cast time to 2 seconds, and lets give it a try like that. The slow it has provides CC which is much needed..

- Give us Knockback on Bombs back and see if that doens't balance things out once more.

 

Start there..

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Ranger has tons of potential.   I would be happy for now if the Ranger just worked more fluidly like the Ranger video, a few skills were tweaked, and arrow inventory / selection was implemented.   Currently it's just clunky.   

 

The basic attacks and power charge-up are its most interesting, working feature.  Keep that.

 

Stake, Spin Step, & Rapid Fire just need tweaks.   E.g. Stake is not only fine, it's a top 10 skill; however, the animation needs to feel like it was intended -- a quick tactical barrier -- not a cumbersome block of slow somethingness placed in our way.

 

Accuracy is improving, but still not sufficient to chose Ranger over other Archetypes.  

 

Melee skills are low damage and redundant, so the debuffs designed into combinations have to work.  Rangers have to split Combat investment into Melee and Ranged, which will also put pressure on ensuring Melee skills are worth the space.  (Currently, imho Rangers are pure ranged, grouped DPS.)  Melee crits and breaks have to work.   I would prefer the current melee skills be consolidated into 1-2 skills, leaving room for 1-2 new Scouting skills.   

 

Explosive Trap...  see above.

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Pure Range :

Stalkers are pure Ranged DPS, Rangers are middle ground.  They are able to move in and out of range, or imo they should be able.  ATM though they either move IN or OUT of melee.  They can't juggle both due to broken mechanics.  So that leaves it up to the players to adjust and make the according gameplays.

 

Melee :

If anything their Melee Toolkit is on the boundry of being OP, they have their hickups and flaws - being that a few of them don't even work... but still, they are by far -not- a pushover.

 

Ranger Ranged UI :

The Hitbox is broken, and the feedback of arrows is broken.  You rarely even see if you're firing an arrow and the delayed damage messages doesn't help at all either.  Still it hits like a truck!  The combinations buffs you can pile on top of each other here makes it extremely viable.  It needs tweaking!!! It's just not horrible.  Meaning once the UI and hitbox change I'm sure it will feel different (that is IF it changes)

 

Movement :
​We're still too rooted while in Ranged tree!!

Cooldowns :
​I'd start with tweaking these first, making them lower would help greatly on her mobility and survivability.  Not that this survivability is lacking she is just countered extremely easy and as such could do with a bit more movement to make up for that.

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I feel they made ranger for basically defense in cities seiges where you just sit on the wall shooting down at people who get to close

Your too immobile with range tree to chase people so you cant realy go offensive in open fields realy well or chase people off when they walk away from the wall, they have there explosive traps to try and trap ramps and wall segements directions (Notice the aoe of the trap is perfect size to cover the width of the walls. archery stake is pretty much tell you to defend the spot you put it down but if you put it in the open you get focused and pushed out of it.

The lack of CC in the melee tree kinda seems to make you run round spamming spin hopeing to hit people since alot of the other ability dont seem to be as reliable unless somone else knocks em down for you (although maybe thats my ping)

City defence specialists is what they seem to be designed for and nothing else, feel it be rather pointless to play and skill up in because seiges arnt realy a daily thing in these types of games.

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Eh, I generally disagree. Ranger skill cap is relatively high...I think they will definitely shine in sieges and area defense. But even in open world they're pretty bonkers, and server lag and camera hitching is the thing that really messes em up.

 

Positioning in open world is really important, but even so you can keep up with a fessor for at least a short while...Or force them to burn they're whole stam bar which makes it easy to hit arrows. Ranger has the best stam regen in the game with 6-6 in melee. And they can do pretty solid single target burst: arrow --> dodge --> Jab --> lacerate.

 

Definitely could see some improvements but as is, the ranger kit is pretty stupid and can be used to great effect in big world imo

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I would like to see a revamp of the melee tray. Maybe not that much, but I would really like to have more traps (or how you want to call them) in melee tray.

Something which could maybe slow enemy or root or so. 

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I feel they made ranger for basically defense in cities seiges where you just sit on the wall shooting down at people who get to close

 

Your too immobile with range tree to chase people so you cant realy go offensive in open fields realy well or chase people off when they walk away from the wall, they have there explosive traps to try and trap ramps and wall segements directions (Notice the aoe of the trap is perfect size to cover the width of the walls. archery stake is pretty much tell you to defend the spot you put it down but if you put it in the open you get focused and pushed out of it.

 

The lack of CC in the melee tree kinda seems to make you run round spamming spin hopeing to hit people since alot of the other ability dont seem to be as reliable unless somone else knocks em down for you (although maybe thats my ping)

 

City defence specialists is what they seem to be designed for and nothing else, feel it be rather pointless to play and skill up in because seiges arnt realy a daily thing in these types of games.

 

I would say they are more designed for hitting the eventual caravans. Combine the traps, stakes, two arrow rain attacks, a good number of bleeds and as I recall armor reduction, and a melee combo that jumps you ahead and slows. I mean, most of those are bugged and not working, but I read the intention of the combination as something you use to block up a path, hit the slow moving pack animal and any clustered defenders, jump into melee to apply debuffs, disengage so they run into your bombs, then either dart in to finish them or right past hem to attack the "cart" and steal their loots. The fact that when the Ranger launched they said she was intended to have some limited, immobility based stealth but they couldn't get it functional also fits that theory.

 

Now we all know it didn't turn out that way and they very well might have scrapped it, but personally I hope they achieve that sort of pick the battlefield fighting style since it's so dissimilar from most classes.

Edited by Vonpenguin

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I thought rangers get arrows with "on-hit" effects, like burning, poison, stunning, etc. If that's not the case, I'd definitely like to see on-hit effects based on arrow type work with all (or most) abilities. Imagine a stun arrow with barrage or ricochet! I'd like to see smoke screen arrows too that blind people in a large radius. In fact having area-of-effect denial smoke type arrows (poison cloud, conflagration, magic arrows that create giant ice fields that cause people to slip and fall) would be amazing IMO.

 

I'd just get rid of explosive trap or move it to the melee bar, and replace it with explosive arrow that does different things based on some of the ideas suggested above.

 

The ranger doesn't necessarily need a larger or different toolkit on the range tray if you can do stuff like this with arrows.

 

The melee tray definitely needs something done with it too. Having it burdened by the necessity of accumulating energy is problematic, especially when the ranger is forced into melee confrontations and doesn't really have a solid way to disengage.

 

Since the ranger is a specialist, she shouldn't be a "straight out" damage dealer. Give her utility options like the above. Give her offensive AND defensive arrow types (ground based aoe heal aura fields, cleanses, etc). Make her/him into the "batman" of crowfall; a tool for almost any situation.

 

"Specialists" right now are just damage dealers with a different title.

 

Damage should not be the only reason you bring every archetype, or the ranger.

Edited by helix
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Why is the ranger being talked about like its just a ranged dps class?  It's support and can be played in a multitude of ways with which  to handle different scenarios but if you want an Archer class designed to do ranged pew pew there will be a better option: stalker. 

 

 

I'm excited to see how the traps, poisons, diseases and different support abilities play on in prolonged skirmishes and their overall role in sieges. 

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20 hours ago, mandalore said:

Why is the ranger being talked about like its just a ranged dps class?  It's support and can be played in a multitude of ways with which  to handle different scenarios but if you want an Archer class designed to do ranged pew pew there will be a better option: stalker. 

I'm excited to see how the traps, poisons, diseases and different support abilities play on in prolonged skirmishes and their overall role in sieges. 

Many players agree, and would love to see the "Toolkit" expanded.  Likewise for the Assassin, even before release.

Some comments were just trying to correct existing skills, vs. future "toolkit".  Others focused the topic's CC angle.

My comment "Currently, imho Rangers are pure ranged, grouped DPS." was about the current kit, incl opinion it wasn't yet viable for solo melee.  (Soulreaver partially disagreed.)

--- Related Topic 1

What is up with ranged & melee trays?  Exactly which classes, if any, are getting more trays?  Will two trays mean we can swap out more skills, and/or more Runes?  Are ranged and melee meant to be equally viable, or are dual weapons considered an advantage such that one or both types are intentionally weakened?  How should we then invest in the Melee & Ranged Combat Tree?  Wouldn't ATs with two ranged trays, e.g. Druid, have a significant (unnecessary) advantage?

--- Unrelated Topic 2

Why do we have Rapid Fire?  Normally I think of spraying bullets over high mob-count, low HP PvE.  Even the increasing crit count doesn't seem to fit, since the hits are small and the crit is reset.  What might work for Crowfall is something like a flat stun chance.  I might pull off stuns on multiple targets, and modify my chances with gear & the Combat Tree.

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