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Isn't it getting a little too much?

30 posts in this topic

TL;DR: I'm respectfully questionning ACE's fundraising strategies, thinking they should be fine at 10M$ for an MMO that's already been in development for two years. I think they're going too far and some aspects are morally fragile IMO.

 

(Please excuse the English errors. My first language is French. My points should still stand regardless.)

 

Hello, Crowfall community / Dev team,

 

Crowfall has raised ten million dollars since it's Kickstarter campaign, and now Artcraft Entertainment is getting investors and selling things that don't currently exist (nearly the whole shop) for even more money.

 

Yooka Laylee, for example, got two million dollars from it's Kickstarter campaign and they're shipping their game in a few months already. A complete single-player game that's going to sell a lot when it launches (believe me, it will). They also have planned DLC that will be free to backers.

 

Crowfall has five times that amount already, and *I know* that it's an MMO and not a single-player game and that it needs more development time, more resources and a bigger dev team (I'm getting my bachelor's degree in computer sciences next year, developping small games as a hobby, I know. I know).

 

They're also making money from the community via pledge rewards and turning some of them into testers. Video game companies usually *pay* people to test their games / report bugs and anomalies / gather feedback. Crowfall let's you do that job if *you* pay enough money to them. (Questionable morality here, but hey, I paid for my pre-alpha access too)

 

Where I'm getting at is, isn't ArtCraft Entertainment going too far with their fundraising plans? Don't you guys have enough money to just make the game without having to add elements to the game with the purpose of making more money? (Winking at the Villa / the blood wine statue)

 

I used to go to the news page to look at what was in development, which new class was being shown, monthly Q/As and stuff. It's still there, but recently, I've been seeing a lot of "This [unexistant game product] is on sale!", "Packages will be more expensive next year!", "Be an investor and get exclusive items when the game launches!", "Please fill out this form / checklist and help us test the game! (so we need less internal testers)".

 

Am I being a bit ignorant, or are they taking too much of our money? Do they really need *more* than ten million dollars to make an MMO? Be objective there, guys, and try to see where I'm coming from.

 

I have not heard of any other MMO Dev team that did what ACE is doing right now (and I've played a handful of them).

 

Now, I know that this post is negative towards ACE, but every kind of feedback should be allowed IMO (and in the pre-alpha test they send a message before leaving saying that "feedback isn't going to upset them").

 

I mean, I backed you guys and I really want this project to work. I want to play with my friends and have a great time in this game. I'm just concerned about your funding strategies.

 

Before I get bombarded with negative comments, please remind yourself that Crowfall probably won't be F2P and that it will have an in-game store with a facultative monthly subscription. The money will be going their way at launch without a problem.

 

Thank you for the read!

 

Inb4 random insults

Inb4 "Don't like it, don't buy it"

Inb4 "Don't compare Yooka Laylee to Crowfall"

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I dont think SWTOR is the best example. I mean, they did go the route of like 90% of the game voice acted.

 

However, 100mill about average. 

 

https://mmos.com/editorials/most-expensive-mmorpgs-ever-developed

 

If you are interested on how the cost of them have been over the past few years.

Kith, JamesGoblin and Kraahk like this

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As this game is not your normaly MMO and is creating its own systems to be able to play you cant think that the game would be out so quickly. Not only that from what I been told by people who make games you should not compare the time it takes to make a mmo's and a single player game. Also we can talk about how they are planning on having DLCs for Yooka-laylee where 10 years ago it would just be part of the game or an expansion pack.

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TL;DR: Respectfully, I don't think your post really has any substance. And you're opining on things of which you admittedly have no experience or expertise.  

 

You essentially ask a series of rhetorical questions -- which is meaningless, in terms of argument -- without offering any sort of basis for your apparent doubts.  In fact, I'd turn it around and ask you to question yourself as to why you think a certain dollar amount is "too much" or why what "you've heard" about "other dev teams" has any significance whatsoever.  From your admission you are not an expert in the field, you have no experience in the field, and really have nothing upon which to base your opinion.  

 

I'd venture a guess that you really enjoy the game and you are anxious for its release. That's awesome, many of us are in the same boat!  But because this is a long, drawn out process your excitement has no outlet... so you sit around questioning things of which you have (and I'm not saying this to be mean) no clue.  Take a deep breath.  Play the game.  Maybe learn more about video game development and you can assuage your doubts.  And maybe learn more about the economics behind a game... It's ridiculous for you to comment so glibly that, "the money will be going their way at launch without a problem."  

 

And I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say it's great to have another Crow on board!  =)

 

Edit: glaring typos, ha

Edited by Nohmad
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Sat in on today's funding webinar, where there were many questions answered about the how's and why's of them raising funds.

 

The very question about future funding needs was actually asked (by me), and the answer to pretty much your entire litany of concerns is simply no. They will only raise funds when they need more, and they still need more, so they are still raising.  They won't raise more than they need to because every time they do they dilute their own interest in the company at the same time. (This does not apply to "purchases").

 

If your just now getting your bachelor degree in computer sciences, good for you, but these guys have been doing this longer than you have even been alive. I trust their judgement on how much they need, far more than any other person or group I can imagine, and I was actually in online game development for a number of years.

 

This round of fund raise is absolutely incredible.  It's possibly the first time in the history of game development that players can get in on the ground floor of a new development studio, and with the exact same stock, potential, and interest that the very founders of the company have.

 

Just imagine if you could have bought a 200$ piece of BioWare before shattered steel was even finished.  That's about where Crowfall is now, and these guys have seen and done it all, and have offered to put all of us in the same boat as they are. I don't think that can be overstated.  

 

Just imagine the ROI if CF is even marginally successful in the MMO world.  Go look up the annual revenue of hearthstone in 2014 for example. 114M in 2014.

 

https://mmos.com/editorials/most-profitable-mmos-mmorpgs

 

EDIT: Look at that list, and tell me there isn't a vacuum in the genre that is currently only filled by WoW. That is a huge potential opening for a new and professionally built for gamers game.

 

Over 10X the current raised funds for this game.  Even 1/10th that level of success is break even, and I am convinced that CF is well on track to taking a much higher position that 10th.

 

I only wish I had more money I could safely risk on this venture at this time, and I hope and pray they will issue a second community round in 8-10 months so we can all have another kick at the cat.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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What you should be arguing is that the developers are old farts in the MMO industry and their level of motivation and drive to work has greatly diminished since their time starting out! That is the argument i would be making. They are old and dilly fart around the office working at a snail's pace. As opposite to 15-20 years ago when they had drive, motivation, and higher levels of testosterone, except for Dogget! He rocks!

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While I can not agree with your stance on the fund-raising as I have backed and invested, I thank you for the headsup on Yooka Laylee.  Just grabbed it for my kid as I hadn't heard about it before and he's having a blast.

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I've been working in IT (not in gaming) for 10 years now, you'd be surprised how much money is actually needed for things. The project I am on in my company is spending $1.5mil per month, that's for Dev, QA, BA, overhead etc. That is what we're spending on current maintenance and enhancements both big and small. We spent more per month during the initial 2 years development time before any of our customers saw our product. The amount of money they're asking to make an MMO is tiny relative to other MMOs.

 

My main concern is scope creep when it comes to games in development. But so far I haven't really seen that happen. There's been some design changes of the details here and there, but those changes make sense and has a reason behind them. 

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Sat in on today's funding webinar, where there were many questions answered about the how's and why's of them raising funds.

 

 

 

Sorry to piggyback, but I missed the webinar you mention. Is there a recording of this one? Thanks.

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TL;DR: I'm respectfully questionning ACE's fundraising strategies, thinking they should be fine at 10M$ for an MMO that's already been in development for two years. I think they're going too far and some aspects are morally fragile IMO.

 

(Please excuse the English errors. My first language is French. My points should still stand regardless.)

 

Hello, Crowfall community / Dev team,

 

Crowfall has raised ten million dollars since it's Kickstarter campaign, and now Artcraft Entertainment is getting investors and selling things that don't currently exist (nearly the whole shop) for even more money.

 

Yooka Laylee, for example, got two million dollars from it's Kickstarter campaign and they're shipping their game in a few months already. A complete single-player game that's going to sell a lot when it launches (believe me, it will). They also have planned DLC that will be free to backers.

 

Crowfall has five times that amount already, and *I know* that it's an MMO and not a single-player game and that it needs more development time, more resources and a bigger dev team (I'm getting my bachelor's degree in computer sciences next year, developping small games as a hobby, I know. I know).

 

They're also making money from the community via pledge rewards and turning some of them into testers. Video game companies usually *pay* people to test their games / report bugs and anomalies / gather feedback. Crowfall let's you do that job if *you* pay enough money to them. (Questionable morality here, but hey, I paid for my pre-alpha access too)

 

Where I'm getting at is, isn't ArtCraft Entertainment going too far with their fundraising plans? Don't you guys have enough money to just make the game without having to add elements to the game with the purpose of making more money? (Winking at the Villa / the blood wine statue)

 

I used to go to the news page to look at what was in development, which new class was being shown, monthly Q/As and stuff. It's still there, but recently, I've been seeing a lot of "This [unexistant game product] is on sale!", "Packages will be more expensive next year!", "Be an investor and get exclusive items when the game launches!", "Please fill out this form / checklist and help us test the game! (so we need less internal testers)".

 

Am I being a bit ignorant, or are they taking too much of our money? Do they really need *more* than ten million dollars to make an MMO? Be objective there, guys, and try to see where I'm coming from.

 

I have not heard of any other MMO Dev team that did what ACE is doing right now (and I've played a handful of them).

 

Now, I know that this post is negative towards ACE, but every kind of feedback should be allowed IMO (and in the pre-alpha test they send a message before leaving saying that "feedback isn't going to upset them").

 

I mean, I backed you guys and I really want this project to work. I want to play with my friends and have a great time in this game. I'm just concerned about your funding strategies.

 

Before I get bombarded with negative comments, please remind yourself that Crowfall probably won't be F2P and that it will have an in-game store with a facultative monthly subscription. The money will be going their way at launch without a problem.

 

Thank you for the read!

 

Inb4 random insults

Inb4 "Don't like it, don't buy it"

Inb4 "Don't compare Yooka Laylee to Crowfall"

 

when is yooka layee being released op

 

askin the hard hittin question here

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Thank you all for the much needed answers! I feel better educated now :)

You welcome.  I know 8 million sounds like a big number, but my best guess, top of head, is that the current burn rate for them is between 200K-300k / month.

 

31 professionals on staff ain't cheap.  How much do you expect to make off your degree per month? Then do the math.

 

 

Sorry to piggyback, but I missed the webinar you mention. Is there a recording of this one? Thanks.

 

 

Sorry, I do not know if they have or will have a recording of this one.  It was done with a webinar software system, not a twitch stream, so I don't know if it was recorded, or if they can even legally release a copy if it was.  I would ask support.

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It will be too much if ACE has to cede creative control to an investor.

Money is the fuel that keeps the lights on and greases the wheels of progress.

When the ship that is CF finally (if ever) comes in, JTC and Gordon will have to share the profits with every investor (no backers), 

but until then the team has to get paid, etc.

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Sorry to piggyback, but I missed the webinar you mention. Is there a recording of this one? Thanks.

If you go here:

 

https://app.microventures.com/crowdfunding/artcraft-entertainment

 

and click on the Webinar tab, you can listen to the one they did back in December. 

 

The one they did yesterday isn't linked, but they may add it.

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Small indie Dev team? Don't think theres a such thing as too much.

 

It'll be too much though if we start to see feature creep and delays caused by said feature creep ala Star Citizen. I am confident though ACE is smart and honest enough to get the base game done first then expand upon it.

Gummiel likes this

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I think the OP is, how shall we say, slightly naive.

 

MMO software is very complex compared to standard single player and other MOBA type multiplayer games. Its not a linear relationship between software complexity and development costs  -  its more exponential.

 

Its easy to search for 'ball park' figures for development cost of MMOs and they basically range from $50M to $200M. So a ~$10M budget is a very tight budget indeed for an MMO.

 

IMO they could easily do with double that amount. They probably need more server engineers, a full blown internal test and QA team and to get a significant user base at launch they need to spend more money on marketing.

 

That's not to say they will not succeed with the current funding but with more funding it will reduce the risks.

Edited by Dirkoff
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