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Assassin powers & UI - Official discussion thread

133 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Nazdar said:

I'm not complaining that she's basically a WoW rogue ripoff (although, she is).  I'm complaining that the rogue archtype has been stale since I typed 'sneak; hide; backstab troll;' on MUDs in the 90s.  Yes, you can detect stealth as a counter, but it's not innovative, and rogue gameplay boils down to two camps:

  1.  I <3 Rogues!!!1!
  2. How is blick/stunlock fun... or even strategic?

It's a stale trope.  Someone on the archetype design team has an unhealthy fondness for rogue-style gameplay.  This doesn't need "tweaking in the future".  It needs a strategic review and a top-down overhaul.

Have to agree with you Nazdar, Rogue Stunlock is as passé and archaic as the holy trinity of Tank, DPS, Heals. 

If it was so fun and special as we all remember it, everyone would login their Twink Rogues into Warsong Gulch Friday night, instead of play-test Crowfall pre-Alpha. 

It's my opinion ArtCraft missed an opportunity here to do something epic. But I also understand resources may be needed elsewhere, and this copy-paste Rogue has a loyal audience which will provide an income stream for a short time.  

Edited by corvax
misspell
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24 minutes ago, corvax said:

Have to agree with you Nazdar, Rogue Stunlock is as passé and archaic as the holy trinity of Tank, DPS, Heals. 

If it was so fun and special as we all remember it, everyone would login their Twink Rogues into Warsong Gulch Friday night, instead of play-test Crowfall pre-Alpha. 

It's my opinion ArtCraft missed an opportunity here to do something epic. But I also understand resources may be needed elsewhere, and this copy-paste Rogue has a loyal audience which will provide an income stream for a short time.  

Holy trinity is more of a PvE dynamic. 

Also obviously your argument is hyperbolic.  Rogues can be fun without being so fun that they have to carry a complete gaming experience and inspire you to log into a twink for a sub based mmorpg that is over 10 years old. 

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6 minutes ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

Holy trinity is more of a PvE dynamic. 

Also obviously your argument is hyperbolic.  Rogues can be fun without being so fun that they have to carry a complete gaming experience and inspire you to log into a twink for a sub based mmorpg that is over 10 years old. 

You're the one making an argument, I was just stating my opinion, sorry you don't like it... Too bad

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4 minutes ago, corvax said:

You're the one making an argument, I was just stating my opinion, sorry you don't like it... Too bad

It's not that I like or don't like it.  I just don't think it is logical to state that if something was so fun and we enjoyed it so much we would be doing some weird version of it presently. 

Things change, even WoW rogues have gone through many iterations that change the playstyles dramatically. 

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To everyone saying that the assassin is a wow rogue, actually it is more like a shadowbane assassin than WoW rogue. Shadowbane also came before WoW so actually wow copied it and I'm sure shadowbane may have copied it from somewhere, but as stated from the begining this game will take alot from shadowbane so I'm very happy for this.

 

Personally I really like the ideas so far and to those worrying about getting stun locked I'm pretty sure i read they will have cc immunity. It may not be the same but it might be like they did in shadowbane. In shadowbane if you got stunned or power blocked once it wore off you'd get an immunity 3x the length of the initial cc i.e. 1 sec stun 3 seconds of immunity 9 sec stun 27 second immunity.

I know they said flight probably won't happen, but I'm really hoping that will be reconsidered. The way it added to shadowbanes pvp was one of my favorite abilities. I can't wait to play the assassin here's to hoping it gets released this weekend.

Also having damage remove stealth is a good idea unless stealth has a very long cooldown or very short duration.

Edited by WNxCrowfall
added last paragraph
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Man, I feel like so many of the "concerns" expressed in this thread wouldn't be concerns if y'all learned how to get over past poorly made socks like functional adults. :lol:

Anyway, yea, looks good on paper. I look forward to giving feedback on implementation in the (hopefully near)  future. I really like the look of it at least, from the shot provided. 

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4 hours ago, Helix said:

It does seem like the duelist is pretty redundant. It be nice to hear what they think the "specialist" role should be, cause two of archetypes in the category already have a lot of overlap. I'm also not sure comparing Knight and Myrmidon to each other is a fair comparison like someone else was doing. Both of these classes play very different. Duelist and Assassin both have the pop-out and blow someone up game play style, both have a secondary stealth tray which is very similar, and both have almost identical ultimate buttons.

Ever since they walked back voxels and digging holes / underneath things I kinda been wondering why the duelist is even in the game.

I think you are underselling the difference between the two.

The Duelist is still unique with the big bleed, big buffs, ranged attacks, faster stealthed movement, and wall tunneling. Some of the Disciplines can pull him even more to the ranged side of the spectrum. 

The assassin has to be in point blank range, needs to lock the target down to maintain back position, as well as keep track of poison procs.

That really is enough from the basic kits before factoring in discipline powers. Had we known what we know now about where Disciplines would take us, we could have culled out half the powers from most of the archetypes basic kit. 

 

 

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Someone did a little too much copy paste I think :P

 

Quote

The Duelist is yet another archetype that has really benefited from previous archetypes and the tech we did build for him gave us quite a few new toys for the powers toolbox.

 

Double jumps and gliding though? You got me freaking sold, Love that kind of things

Edited by Gummiel
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So, I waited a bit to see what the community felt about the Assassin reveal and I wasn't terribly surprised by the response. A few points I'd counter/respond back based on my look through;

  • Stunlocking isn't possible. Assuming CC diminishing returns, its just not a thing. Lets not slippery slope an opening stun to equate with a "stun lock".
  • Even if stunning someone for a considerable portion of time (lets consider knockdown the real enemy right now) was possible, adapt. Pick survivability over burst and raw damage (pretty much what everyone in the tests is gearing for).
  • Stealth rampant on your server? I'd imagine Anti-Stealth will see a dramatic rise. Anti-Stealth too prevalent on your server? I'd imagine stealthers will go to greener pastures. Its the nature of an always-evolving meta and the argument that the game will devolve into "roguebane" is referring to a game that failed. Lets give them some credit.
  • I agree that AoE damage (not single-target attacks) should be able to break stealth with one caveat; stealthers can train to reduce and eliminate that disadvantage.
  • The bulk of the comments seem to be at the striking similarity to existing "Rogues" in the MMO space. Its not a wrong assessment, however, few if any games let you drag and drop powers into your bars to customize your play like Crowfall will.
  • We haven't seen the variations to come from Promotions.
  • The only point I was actually disappointed by was that the "specialist" nature of this class was seemingly tossed in as an after thought. Without seeing the actual power tooltips, it didn't seem immediately clear to me if Assassins got any benefit from an existing "Exposed" debuff. Not sure why they could apply it if they can't. Probably an oversight.
  • I did not see any mention of the Assassin flavor/variation of stealth (the semi-visible nature) we were told about in the original Assassin reveal a few weeks back. That disappointed me greatly. They did mention Stealth/Anti-Stealth was still a work in progress though, so I'll wait and see...

Cosmetic stuff doesn't interest me. I consider flying/gliding cosmetic in this game right now. As its stands I'm very happy as I DO see a majority of what I wanted from this archetype here;

  • Consistent access to anti-healing tech (healing preventing shields).
  • Seemingly consistent access to snares
  • Some PBAoE action (the real rogue trope is single-target only damage).
  • Stealth and Emergency-Re-Stealth 
  • Positional Combat (debatable as to usefulness/effectiveness in the current state of combat with everyone running all over the place).

I'm a happy camper. My org will certainly be running a majority of these right now.

Edited by scree
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Very happy with the assassin so far, even so I am still a bit confused with the wings idea (still think it should be a discipline and / or a specialization).

Here are a few points I would like to mention:

  • Does Ambush breaks stealth? I guess it should, which would give two ways to engage a target, using DPS or CC, depending on the situation.
  • Poisons having different effects rather than simply different status (or even stats) is a really good idea. However, I suggest that some colors be added and / or some rework of the poison tags/logos to be done, as they are uneasy to differentiate from each other.
  • As for every rogue gameplay, I love the combo of DPS, CC, pips and positional attacks, which will make it both fun to play and hard to master.
  • I like the recon and dart attacks, very good to prepare for the kill.
  • Any chance to replace/adapt/choose the disease type damage for the Curse Weapon buff? To make it adapts with the poison passive chosen instead? I dislike the idea that this specific buff could be countered by a standard "assassin disease counter build". Surprise is the only strength rogues have, keep building on it. :)

Apart from those, cannot wait to give it a try!

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2 hours ago, scree said:
  • The only point I was actually disappointed by was that the "specialist" nature of this class was seemingly tossed in as an after thought. Without seeing the actual power tooltips, it didn't seem immediately clear to me if Assassins got any benefit from an existing "Exposed" debuff. Not sure why they could apply it if they can't. Probably an oversight.

The next power is Recon. Recon applies a debuff that is unique to all Specialist archetypes called Exposed. This is a very nasty debuff that causes the target to take extra damage and generates bonus pips for the Assassin

Benefit is there, but pales in comparsion to the interesting gameplay and skill cap that the Duelist has with their interupt mechanic

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Stealth
• are you considering making the stealth "logical" or will this be to much of a headache programming wise?
(lets give stealth a factor from 10 to 100, where 10 is almost visible and 100 is super-duper invis)
Nighttime/dusk/dawn
- could be factor 70-100 and should only be detectable by for instance the Ranger with a power on semi-long cooldown. 
- close to buildings and trees should give 85-100, open fields 70-85 depending on terrain.
Daytime
- could be factor 10 (open fields) to 60 (under/close to trees, close to buildings, or shade areas)

You get the idea, logical stealth requires more from the stealther than just "go invis" wherever.

Also, a power where you can stand in the open field and burn the ground around you for higher visibility would be cool. Templars and Fessors could use that (on a cooldown) to burn down the evergrowing flowers and more easily detect the burrowed chipmunks.

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17 hours ago, mctan said:

I am always most skeptical of stealth classes in PvP games. They give nearly unilateral power to decide whether or not to fight, which seems to run counter to the vision of a PvP game with conflict. Within a week of release, I imagine this game will be over 20% stealth mains, and after a month it will be over 50% after attrition. Yes, I am doomsaying.

I am most disheartened, in fact, by the idea of anti-stealth being a very particular role and choice. This is the opposite of what I was hoping for. Everyone, and I literally mean everyone, should be able to anti-stealth. Otherwise, roguefall is an inevitability, IMO. Hopefully everyone gets access to multiple anti-stealth disciplines.

At the very least, attacks out of stealth should be stealthers' weakest attacks, not some of their strongest. 

The other option is magical, time-sensitive and range sensitive stealth like Albion, but that is off the table.

Still, looking forward to seeing how things come together!

It wasn't an issue in Shadowbane. Scouts could track and remove stealth.  A good chunk of the classes had the ability to track stealthers. The only stealther that was "omg get out of here with your stuff" was the thief who could steal without engaging in a fight. Having the power to stealth wasn't an IWIN and while it was very nice getting around, it wasn't full proof. Seems like this game will have even more anti-stealth options. 

I doubt those numbers you pull out your ass for who will play stealther will be anywhere near that. Just too many other powerful ATs and there is also the eventuality that you one character will be able to slip into the vessel of another class. For solo play, sure. For group play I imagine everyone will have a secondary option to slip into that is up to par at least.

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15 hours ago, Vectious said:

Except a Knight is neither like a warrior or paladin. 

Myrm is not like a Shaman at all.

I mean, theres nothing even similar.

Im not sure what the point is randomly picking a Archetype and then randomly grabbing a class in WoW and saying there was any logic to it.

 

 

However, to compare the vanila Rogue to the assassin lets do that.

Stealth - Easy one that really shouldn't be counted.

Vanish - Duelist and Assassin both have this but its fairly common for stealth/rogue class.

Combo Points - Now this is something invented by WoW in particular and both the duelist and assasin have them. They even have the exact same amount of pips.

Point Consumption - Has to do with the combo point system but both the duelist and assassin is a full consumption of points and depending on how many they have are different results. Identical to the Vanilla WoW Rogue.

Toggle Stealth - Not too uncommon but mainstreamed with WoW Vanilla Rogue. Instant and basicly a 'mode'.

Stealth Bar - Again not to uncommon but mainstreamed with WoW Vanilla Rogue.

Ambush - Stealth only ability thats a 'opener' Like...identical to the rogue's down to the amount of combo points generated. Even named it the same.

Poison - Almost all rogues have it but their implementation of it is almost identical to the WoW Vanilla Rogue. Difference being WoW Rogue apply the passive to their weapons as a temp buff.

Blink - Well the assassin admittedly doesn't have it (that we know of) but the duelist does.

Kidney Shot - Literally named the exact same as the Vanilla Rogue WoWs 5 combo point stun finisher.

 

Im not saying its similar in the fact they have stealth, poison, positional attacks. Im saying the actual abilities, mechanics and implemental of them..... down to their NAMES are identical. 

So basicly, its a nearly perfect clone except alot of WoW Rogue Clone abilities did not get carried over and instead 2-3 different ones.

Im sorry, but thats not nitpick or cherry picking thats...blatantly a copy paste.

Least it has wings?

 

All of those points except for the pips can be accounted for nearly ass rogue classes prior to WoW. Even shadowbane had.

1. Stealth - Fade/Invisibility

2. Stealth bar - UI QoL thing, which games back then didn't have really.

3. Poisons - Were in shadowbane from weapon proc spell, to different types of ambushes, to steal breath

4. Ambush/Backstab - 

Backstab

Backstab "Sneak Attack!"
You must be using Sneak to activate this power
requires Sneak Power ( 1 )

 

This and others required stealth so is technically the Ambush mechanic of being in stealth.

5. Kidney Shot - Is simply a stun, which Shadowbane and others had. Built into Shadowbolt and Shadow Touch.

Even names are traditional prior to wow except maybe kidney shot. But even then the concept of the excruciating pain of being attacked in the kidney locking people up has been around far longer than wow in dungeons and dragons and fantasy alike.

 

 

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"In other words, don’t freak out about anything at this stage." -Blixtev

-wipes tears from my eyes- Best laugh I've had all month.

 

Seriously, though, I'm super excited. Aside from some miscellaneous unanswered questions, most of which Scree beat me to the punch on and none of which are terribly important to me, I've got all I need to buy the game if I hadn't already.

And to all the people who apparently didn't read the first couple paragraphs and/or don't know much about the predecessors to WoW like Shadowbane... The fact that you think that this is ripping off WoW was worth a chuckle, but even if it WAS, tell me, how would you go about implementing a traditional rogue WITHOUT using ideas that have already been used? It's not like there are an infinite number of unique variations of a stealthy backstabber to choose from. Not everything needs to be 100% original - tried and true concepts like an assassin that behaves like an assassin are classics for a reason. And if you're already worried that their very existence will singlehandedly destroy the game, maybe reread the first sentence of this post?

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3 hours ago, Tibby2 said:

Stealth
• are you considering making the stealth "logical" or will this be to much of a headache programming wise?
(lets give stealth a factor from 10 to 100, where 10 is almost visible and 100 is super-duper invis)
Nighttime/dusk/dawn
- could be factor 70-100 and should only be detectable by for instance the Ranger with a power on semi-long cooldown. 
- close to buildings and trees should give 85-100, open fields 70-85 depending on terrain.
Daytime
- could be factor 10 (open fields) to 60 (under/close to trees, close to buildings, or shade areas)

You get the idea, logical stealth requires more from the stealther than just "go invis" wherever.

Also, a power where you can stand in the open field and burn the ground around you for higher visibility would be cool. Templars and Fessors could use that (on a cooldown) to burn down the evergrowing flowers and more easily detect the burrowed chipmunks.

Not really possible if the Assassin will be low on defense because of their ability to stealth. Would mean nighttime would be the only time you weren't a easily seen, low-defense victim. 

I rather they just make robust anti-stealth mechanics that people have to invest in.

Bounty Hunter/Track to show who is near you. Reveal to see through the stealth (but not just reveal target until you damage them)

AoE - To knock out of stealth

Bigger Health/Def so that a stealther opening on you even 1v1 could mean death to the lower def stealther.

 

Honestly games like WoW made people lazy. The PvP was an after-thought. Rogue could stun lock too easy. Having someone stealth open on you was bad because people had atrocious reaction time. Pure pvp games like Shadowbane trained you not to be atrocious at reactions.

Comparatively, when I first started playing WoW from Shadowbane, I played where I was constantly moving my camera view to see what was around me. If a rogue opened on me, I would immediately react. When PvP is an after-thought you don't play with this kind of play-style or learned reaction to fights.

 

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2 minutes ago, goose said:

"In other words, don’t freak out about anything at this stage." -Blixtev

-wipes tears from my eyes- Best laugh I've had all month.

 

Seriously, though, I'm super excited. Aside from some miscellaneous unanswered questions, most of which Scree beat me to the punch on and none of which are terribly important to me, I've got all I need to buy the game if I hadn't already.

And to all the people who apparently didn't read the first couple paragraphs and/or don't know much about the predecessors to WoW like Shadowbane... The fact that you think that this is ripping off WoW was worth a chuckle, but even if it WAS, tell me, how would you go about implementing a traditional rogue WITHOUT using ideas that have already been used? It's not like there are an infinite number of unique variations of a stealthy backstabber to choose from. Not everything needs to be 100% original - tried and true concepts like an assassin that behaves like an assassin are classics for a reason. And if you're already worried that their very existence will singlehandedly destroy the game, maybe reread the first sentence of this post?

Looked at Assassin reveal and was like "well RIP Druid". Kind of knew that Assassin would catch my attention just as they have since way back in Shadowbane.

But... haven't we all already "bought the game" with our back pledges lol. I was convinced way back when I first pledged this game's wind was blowing the way I like; a return to FFA PvP and risk and rewards. Building your character, politicking, and ability to be true mercs again. Now I just know what my main will be to accomplish this.

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7 hours ago, thomasblair said:

I think you are underselling the difference between the two.

The Duelist is still unique with the big bleed, big buffs, ranged attacks, faster stealthed movement, and wall tunneling. Some of the Disciplines can pull him even more to the ranged side of the spectrum. 

The assassin has to be in point blank range, needs to lock the target down to maintain back position, as well as keep track of poison procs.

That really is enough from the basic kits before factoring in discipline powers. Had we known what we know now about where Disciplines would take us, we could have culled out half the powers from most of the archetypes basic kit. 

 

 

I agree with this. As someone who plays the Duelist a lot and eventually will have either the assassin or duelist as one of the three archetypes I play there are some key differences between the two which you outlined above.

The duelist and assassin are definitely more alike than any other two archetypes. That's bound to happen as more archetypes join the game. I imagine stalker and ranger will have some overlap as will confessor and frost weaver.

 

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36 minutes ago, Navystylz said:

Looked at Assassin reveal and was like "well RIP Druid". Kind of knew that Assassin would catch my attention just as they have since way back in Shadowbane.

But... haven't we all already "bought the game" with our back pledges lol. I was convinced way back when I first pledged this game's wind was blowing the way I like; a return to FFA PvP and risk and rewards. Building your character, politicking, and ability to be true mercs again. Now I just know what my main will be to accomplish this.

 
 

Yeah, I was sold on the game's vision well before I upgraded to amber - I've spent so much time selling Shadowbane to people who missed their chance to play it that I should be getting a retirement stipend from Ubisoft, and I'm the singular reason that nearly ten people besides me will be joining Crowfall once alpha and beta tests start. Though to be fair, four of them would probably have heard of it by themselves by now, but I digress.

What I meant was more along the lines of "if the game was out today and I had never heard of it, I would buy it just for the Assassin this describes." Hell, I would probably throw my wallet at my monitor out of sheer excitement and/or Fry-esque stupidity. Who can say? +_+

Edited by goose
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7 hours ago, thomasblair said:

I think you are underselling the difference between the two.

The Duelist is still unique with the big bleed, big buffs, ranged attacks, faster stealthed movement, and wall tunneling. Some of the Disciplines can pull him even more to the ranged side of the spectrum. 

The assassin has to be in point blank range, needs to lock the target down to maintain back position, as well as keep track of poison procs.

That really is enough from the basic kits before factoring in discipline powers. Had we known what we know now about where Disciplines would take us, we could have culled out half the powers from most of the archetypes basic kit. 

 

 

I think you are way overselling what amounts to a bleed,a buff,  minor range attacks, a movement speed different, and a blink.

Basicly what you just said is that he has 4-5 different powers and thats all you need to be different from other archetypes. Screw mechanics and play styles, just some abilities that are not all that unique. 

And have you actually played a Duelist? You dont think he needs to be point blank to do the majority of his damage? 

Thats depressing to know that is your vision on archetypes.

And how did you not know where discipline runes were going? That are not that much different than shadowbane (thankfully). 

 

 

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