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Assassin powers & UI - Official discussion thread

133 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Darthus said:

Re: Stealth being a toggle and not permenantly translucent:

https://crowfall.com/en/news/assassin-powers-ui/

Stealth Mode

Stealth mode, as with the Duelist, is a way of turning your character invisible to other players. Currently, all players have the ability to potentially detect stealth characters, but eventually this will change when our anti-stealth features come online. Note that detection is also positional – your target’s chance to detect you will be increased or decreased depending on the direction they are facing.

Detection being positional and chances increasing or decreasing based on position implies "revealing", which applies not simple translucency. In addition, later in the same post they show there is an alternate bar for "in stealth", exactly as was done in WoW, which implies a toggle. Combined with the above that there is a "stealth mode, as with the duelist", I'm assuming means you hit a toggle, and are now translucent, just as the Duelist goes into the ground. However, as far as I can tell with Duelist, the stealth is organic, you can see the mound of dirt, or you miss it. The description above implies that there is a "revealing" mechanic, in which case, what's the point of stealth being translucent? The above also implies that us all being able to see the mound of Duelist dirt is actually not final, that in order to do that, you'll need a special "detection" ability.

This is inaccurate. Or rather, incomplete. The visible dirt pile for the Duelist is what you see when you can see THROUGH their stealth. That is what someone with the detection skill sees when a Duelist is in stealth. To everyone else, the dirt pile is invisible.

Similarly, what they have said about the Assassin implies that to someone who CAN see her, or while she is NOT in stealth, she is translucent.

At no point that I am aware of have they claimed that this was no longer the case.

3 hours ago, Darthus said:

The WoW argument is semantics. Shadowbane may have started it, WoW popularized and calcified it, and it doesn't change that I (and from what I read, a number of others) are not a fan of that style of that kind of rogue/thief, and their very similar names and skill descriptions to the WoW rogue, (along with the statement of it being a staple), imply that they are not trying to change the core mechanics, but instead leave it the same as the staple, with small tweaks.

When the question is whether or not Crowfall is ripping off someone's idea, pointing out that the original source for the idea was actually made by many of the same people making this one isn't a semantic argument at all. A semantic argument would be if I said "that isn't ripping WoW OFF, that's just friendly imitation."

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4 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

Noted that is your view, just felt like giving myself an excuse to read the giant post again, it is some pretty daring and refreshing ideas - not 100% new as you say, but certainly a diviation from what is the more normal and safe option

I do like that the camouflage system they are going for depends on both appropriate gear and environment (and you can't carry around much e.g. a set for all locations!) and is by no means and easy on and off mechanic either.

Also the scout's astral spirit projections...

Also I love this particular idea about the veil...a whole other invisible fight could be raging right beside you (or within the giant battle as a whole that is both visible and invisible)

“battle within a battle,” as the VW/VS fight within the Veil while another battle rages around them. This has the potential to be very, very cool for all concerned. Nobody, not even the most powerful stealther, will be able to roam the Veil with complete safety, and the VW/VS setup will mean that while within the Veil, the stealther will have to pay attention, and not just sit somewhere unseen, untouched, and unheard. Moving around within the Veil comes with its own risks besides the VW/VS mechanic. For example, the player can be revealed by the abilities of other classes, and the sounds that they make in the Veil are echoed outside of the Veil. 

e.g. not just the case that if two enemy stealthers see each other while 'invisible' one of them hits the other to remove them both out of stealth into view with a hit... they can fight each other while both still inside the veil...right besides those in the visible world...unless they decide to intervene or are banished there themselves against their will..

Can't argue with any of that. It honestly sounds interesting enough by itself to make me consider trying CU out sometime, but I care far less about that title than this one, and I remain more excited about Crowfall's Assassin than any facet of Crowfall's competition. :P

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2 minutes ago, goose said:

This is inaccurate. Or rather, incomplete. The visible dirt pile for the Duelist is what you see when you can see THROUGH their stealth. That is what someone with the detection skill sees when a Duelist is in stealth. To everyone else, the dirt pile is invisible.

Are you sure about that?

Because that's a really, really poorly made socksty detect hidden.

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Just now, coolwaters said:

Are you sure about that?

Because that's a really, really poorly made socksty detect hidden.

No, I'm not sure about that. It's just all the information we have right now. They even said it in the post.

"In the meantime, while we’re waiting on these features, we’ll continue to grant “detect” ability to all players so that stealth isn’t completely OP."

Blair also said it in a video months ago - what we see when we look at a burrowed Duelist right now is the same thing someone with a Detect Hidden skill that equals or exceeds the Duelist's Stealth skill will see.

That may no longer be true when the game launches, but as of the last information we were given, it is still true.

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6 minutes ago, goose said:

Can't argue with any of that. It honestly sounds interesting enough by itself to make me consider trying CU out sometime, but I care far less about that title than this one, and I remain more excited about Crowfall's Assassin than any facet of Crowfall's competition. :P

The only issue I have with this assassin...is I was just picturing more unique elements themed around the wings within the powers (not true flight, I know that would be silly). Granted such things as the double jump and feather fall are hard to judge at this point without seeing it in action. And just too much initial duplication with the duelist role from first glance (and some ranger powers)

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3 minutes ago, Tinnis said:

The only issue I have with this assassin...is I was just picturing more unique elements themed around the wings within the powers (not true flight, I know that would be silly). Granted such things as the double jump and feather fall are hard to judge at this point without seeing it in action. And just too much initial duplication with the duelist role from first glance (and some ranger powers)

That's reasonable. So far, the Duelist and the Assassin have both met my personal expectations of them more or less precisely, so this isn't an issue that I have personally run into. But at the same time, there's still a lot of the game's core functionality that we haven't gotten our hands on yet, and I am in no hurry to form lasting opinions about incomplete systems.

Edited by goose
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4 minutes ago, goose said:

I guess you are more easily disappointed than me.

Then you can waste a disc slot on an ineffective detect disc that may, occasionally, show your target as a mobile pile of poo.

I'll skip that trash.

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Some older source materials about stealth mechanics while I hunt down the video I quoted... They don't all have bullet points in the descriptions, so it might take me a bit.

https://imperium.news/crowfall-exclusive-interview-passive-skills-stealth-ops/ <--interview that our very own Scree had with Gordon about stealth mechanics in June of 2015.

Edit: ugh. you know, I've hunted this video clip down like 3 times already and I don't care anymore. I'm pretty sure it's in either one of the Q&As or one of the older Fly on the Wall videos, and if anyone cares, they can find them on YouTube.

Edited by goose

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Yea, goose, at this point it remains the only definitive document we have on stealth beyond the occasional Q&A we've had answered by the devs. I have NO clue how close the current vision matches the one taken down 2 years ago.  I have a request out for a followup, but we'll see ;)

I really have mixed feelings about the Stealth topic. Tons of people come to Crowfall expecting them to reinvent the Stealth gameplay or else assigning some sort of dismal failure at ACE's feet for failing to do so. Its not fair to expect every single game system within Crowfall to be reinvented "just because". I was quite okay seeing stealth re-done in the Shadowbane manner and so far that seems to be the course they've charted. 

Being able to see someone in stealth, as far as we know, is a comparison of the stealth _skill_ and the perception _skill_ when a stealthed target is in the front 180 degree cone of a player. This implementation is in game right now. If a stealthed character moves up behind a player, that player cannot see him. Go test it out, I'll wait here. The only reason that players can see a Duelist's dirt pile is because the stealth skill is locked at zero right now and perception skill has been granted to everyone.

Their are two components we assume will exist in Crowfall. The perception, anti-stealth skill, which allows players to see those within stealth, and the abilities which may remove players nearby from stealth. Keep in mind that just because someone can see someone in stealth, doesn't mean his or her party can. Also, a person in stealth can still execute a variety of nasty surprises from that stealth that a perceptive player may not want them to; hence the ability or power to remove nearby stealthies is useful.

In considering the design of this game, its unfair for either side of the equation stealth or anti-stealth to have too many of their primary combat bars taken up with stealth abilities (for those of you who were hoping it was more complicated then a simple toggle). Not saying its right or wrong, but its how it is. 

I'm more interested in their "unique take" on Assassin invisibility then I am on anything else right now. I question its ability to work the way they want knowing tech and how stealth is implemented in other games for a very real reason (client-side hacks). Removing a player in stealth from being reported to the clients is how most games protect the security of stealthed individuals. If you report semi-stealthed characters to the client, that means the potential for those hacks will fully invalidate any stealthed characters.

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Infect is a poor name.

Disease infects the victim, but not poison.

Both poison and disease can be insinuated into a victim, so I like Insinuate better.

One is imbued with his nature by his creator, so I don't see how to cover all 3 with one verb.

 

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