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Ashes of Creation - Kickstarter starts 1st of may!

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Anyone know if they've said who their investors are and or how much the they and the founders have contributed?

The creative director and CFO appear to be married and previously (currently?) involved in MLM so potentially have a decent sum invested themselves.

Reason I look to KS for upcoming games is the hope of less investor involvement, but being they've said the core game is already funded, makes me wonder where all the cash is coming from.

Then again, they might have $1 million and say it is enough when in reality, not so much.

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I like the look of AoC and I'm enamoured by their promises, but I have a question: what happens when all the dust has settled and all the big guilds have their nigh-impenetrable Metropolises? Will newer players or smaller guilds be forever behind? I haven't been able to find a lot of specifics relating to how things like gear and levels will scale and peak in terms of combat power... AoC is still in development so that's to be expected, but I'd like to at least know what their plans are for it!

(Intrepid also seem to be a little confused when it comes to how they want open-world PvP to work - they want to encourage people to contest nodes and caravans, but their system for discouraging griefing makes me think that no-one will ever want to be the aggressor... This makes me think that the game's going to fall closer to the "carebear" side of the spectrum, but I'm open to comments on that!)

I never got to play any of the older MMORPGs that people talk about here, such as Shadowbane, where guilds held direct power over the game - but I've heard a lot of people became tired of the servers stagnating once the status quo had been established. This might impact the shelf life of AoC in a way that Crowfall isn't due to CF's time-limited campaigns and ACE's promise of shallow power curves.

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13 hours ago, Xarrayne said:

I like the look of AoC and I'm enamoured by their promises, but I have a question: what happens when all the dust has settled and all the big guilds have their nigh-impenetrable Metropolises?

This might impact the shelf life of AoC in a way that Crowfall isn't due to CF's time-limited campaigns and ACE's promise of shallow power curves.

Wondering this myself. It sounds great as someone in on day one and for a period of time, but eventually the world will reach a point where it isn't growing quickly or at all and might lose the appeal. I've backed but might back out if they don't reveal a bit more into specific plans by the end of the KS. Without some evidence of their vision actually being possible, just another "we will do it all and change everything" hype mobile.

Even though I like what Camelot Unchain has planned on paper in comparison to CF, the potential for dead end or overly repetitive play is what drew me more to CF and the win/lose design.

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a win/lose mechanic with full world reset is needed otherwise the game will stuck in an uncle bob's state(big guilds controlling everything = 0 fun) in the long run. CF is the only upcoming game with this reset concept as far as I know and seems to have a good working gameplay idea.

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I think that with AoC there will be enough for everyone to do, but as you say servers can for sure stagnate, but this is more or less up to the player I feel, who sais that there wont be more big guilds, or why not join one yourself? They will for sure compete for power and try to siege down their enemies. Also with smaller guilds you dont always have to compete for the biggest metropolis out there. The concerns are valid, but it lies more in what people want, and it feels like everyone wants everything from the get go now a days. If I cant have the metropolis without doing anything no one should be able to, allthough i do understand some of the concern for the stagnation. But since there are events that the devs can trigger and add, while constantly adding things to the game to make it feel fresh all the time. If what they say and what they want for the game comes true, then I will think that the game will be insanely fun.

Also what stops two smaller guilds to join forces, or more guilds, to take down the big ass guild thats been ruling for 6 months now.

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On 2.5.2017 at 2:22 AM, BarriaKarl said:

IKR. I laughed in the part he said: "We are also doing this to give the community some rewards for supporting us since the beggining."

No, Bro. Are you asking me for money just so you can give me rewards?

Why is it not a reward? You pay money for a game and get the game plus some extra stuff, its like you buy the game from the get go and get more stuff with it. So essentially it is "rewarding" the people who fund it yes. And if you are crazy enough and pay 445 for the game you will get a lifetime sub that will never be obtainable again. And if you go for a lower one 45 bucks, thats usually standard now, even 60 bucks is standard for new games, that will make net you 2 months of play time, the rewards that they unlock from the KS campaign + all the other rewards for that bracket... how is that not a reward? If you get in with the game on launch without a ks package you will get the game sure, but that is all..

How can this even be mistaken for not a reward? Because you pay some sum that will make the game development faster and cleaner to get the reward? Its like working for money, the reward is the money ... 

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Yeah from what ive read so far seems like the node system may favor big zerg guilds. The more players doing stuff within your nodes zone of influence the faster and larger you node becomes.

There definitely needs to be some kind of diminishing returns type system in place.

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5 hours ago, Kreigon said:

a win/lose mechanic with full world reset is needed otherwise the game will stuck in an uncle bob's state(big guilds controlling everything = 0 fun) in the long run. CF is the only upcoming game with this reset concept as far as I know and seems to have a good working gameplay idea.

I definitely think CF's reset mechanic is a great way to prevent guilds from being able to rest on their laurels, but even then I guess it's inevitable that there will always be a few guilds who will be dominant... Whether it be due to skill, size of active playerbase or whatever there's always gonna be guilds who out-perform everyone else, the key is to make sure that everyone feels like they have a shot at victory without cheapening the value of that win - otherwise it just becomes a meaningless participation medal.

4 hours ago, pang said:

Yeah from what ive read so far seems like the node system may favor big zerg guilds. The more players doing stuff within your nodes zone of influence the faster and larger you node becomes.

There definitely needs to be some kind of diminishing returns type system in place.

 

4 hours ago, deiphoboz said:

I think that with AoC there will be enough for everyone to do, but as you say servers can for sure stagnate, but this is more or less up to the player I feel, who sais that there wont be more big guilds, or why not join one yourself? They will for sure compete for power and try to siege down their enemies. Also with smaller guilds you dont always have to compete for the biggest metropolis out there. The concerns are valid, but it lies more in what people want, and it feels like everyone wants everything from the get go now a days. If I cant have the metropolis without doing anything no one should be able to, allthough i do understand some of the concern for the stagnation. But since there are events that the devs can trigger and add, while constantly adding things to the game to make it feel fresh all the time. If what they say and what they want for the game comes true, then I will think that the game will be insanely fun.

Also what stops two smaller guilds to join forces, or more guilds, to take down the big ass guild thats been ruling for 6 months now.

Yeah it definitely looks like the advantage will be in the numbers with AoC as Pang said, and though I despise being in one of those zerg communities there's nothing to stop smaller guilds from making alliances with each other or even the zerg guilds, as Deiphoboz pointed out. That way you get to have your cake and eat it - you get to do all the big "end-game" content like raids and sieges while maintaining a decent level of autonomy and a closer-knit guild. They're also right in saying that reaching those achievements shouldn't be something that just anyone can do - as I said before, winning is meaningless if everyone gets it.

At the end of the day I guess it depends on how the Devs handle it - diminishing returns, increased resistance from the world as guilds make more progress and the threat of other players are all good ideas, and as with ACE I don't doubt that Intrepid are aware of all the potential problems and are putting heads together just as we are to ensure their game is enjoyable and long-lasting. It's as much in the execution of their ideas as much as the ideals themselves, but I see such great potential in both games' concepts and I really wanna get on board with both teams! I'll be watching both Crowfall and Ashes of Creation with eager anticipation, it's like MMO-RPG Christmas :wub:

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I really want this game to succeed, but the closer we get to the end of the Kickstarter the more I doubt it. I don't think the issue is going to be money, initially, I think the issue is going to be lack of technical experience coupled with an extremely complex game. I looked up the key members of the team. A team of 10+1 community manager and 2 owners who don't have any MMO experience just doesn't seem like they can build this. They say they have 40 years of MMO xperience. The teams making Crowfall and Camelot Unchained have that amount of experience in 2 people each- and those are teams of 30+ people.

With that being said, I pledged 455 for an early bird lifetime subscription, so don't be surprised if at least one becomes available the day this Kickstarter closes. I want to believe they can build this games but the evidence isn't there. Also the expectation of delivering in 2 - 3 years.....just no. Look at the similar Kickstarter MMOs, try 4-6 years.

I'm really surprised I haven't seen more focus on the fact that this team is not very experienced at all. Look for yourselves, you can pull up the resume for each one of the team members very easily on Linkedin for a really in depth look at what these people have in their employment backgrounds.

Crowfall: https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/people/?facetCurrentCompany=%5B%2210475463%22%5D                 https://www.crowfall.com/en/team/

Camelot Unchained: https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/people/?facetCurrentCompany=%5B%222349140%22%5D

Ashes of Creation: https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/people/?facetCurrentCompany=%5B%2217898945%22%5D

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22 hours ago, Santovenia said:

I really want this game to succeed, but the closer we get to the end of the Kickstarter the more I doubt it. I don't think the issue is going to be money, initially, I think the issue is going to be lack of technical experience coupled with an extremely complex game. I looked up the key members of the team. A team of 10+1 community manager and 2 owners who don't have any MMO experience just doesn't seem like they can build this. They say they have 40 years of MMO xperience. The teams making Crowfall and Camelot Unchained have that amount of experience in 2 people each- and those are teams of 30+ people.

With that being said, I pledged 455 for an early bird lifetime subscription, so don't be surprised if at least one becomes available the day this Kickstarter closes. I want to believe they can build this games but the evidence isn't there. Also the expectation of delivering in 2 - 3 years.....just no. Look at the similar Kickstarter MMOs, try 4-6 years.

I'm really surprised I haven't seen more focus on the fact that this team is not very experienced at all. Look for yourselves, you can pull up the resume for each one of the team members very easily on Linkedin for a really in depth look at what these people have in their employment backgrounds.

The team's experience has been brought up on various sites and Steven has responded. Not going to find the exact links but basically was....not everyone uses Linkedin and or has an updated profile along with saying devs do have varying amounts of experience. Looking at the mobygames sites, there is a bit more listed for some of them compared to Linkedin it appears. Being that they are San Diego based, not surprising to have former SOE/DB folks, which is what it is.

Regardless, at one time or another, devs start somewhere. Back in the early days of MMOs, there wasn't a ton of actual MMO experience, yet folks created games that some of us see as good if not better than what has come after with teams full of a lot more members, funding, time, experience, etc. 

CU/CF do have some real vets of the industry, but aren't short on newer blood either. Be it to game development or specifically to MMOs and what both are attempting to make.

I believe some lack of tech experience is why CF's combat as an example, has taken quite a while to get to where it is, which isn't anything spectacular imo. CU is at the 4 year mark and seems like it has a good ways to go still. Also not surprising that there is a heavy dose of inspiration coming from DAOC, Shadowbane, UO, SWG for these games. Some of the bigger names haven't done a ton since that "we" seem to value. I don't see many drooling over Blair's DCUO time, Todd and Wiz101, MJ and WAR. Just because some have been around for 20+ years, does't mean they've been pumping out comparable products the entire time.

As with the others, I'm cautiously optimistic about AoC, but do believe there is something to say about a non-dev dumping potentially 10s of millions into a product that they want to experience themselves. Surely comes with mistakes and a learning curve, but hiring folks that can compensate would be ideal. Supposedly they have or want at least a $30 million budget which is a decent chunk more than CF/CU. Not sure how much Steven is forking over himself, but if that isn't total bs, I have to appreciate the confidence and effort.

They have plans to double/triple the team size as needed, but getting quality folks probably isn't easy. Hopefully they pay well because it is pricey to live here in SD.

Until any of these products actually launch and are full fledged games, I'll keep an eye out and hope for the best. I've seen many criticize the use of Unreal assets in their demos, but I don't know the specifics of such. However, if that is what is available as base line assets, they should by all means take advantage as they look better visually than CU's home made engine and CF's take on Unity imo.

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I wouldn't worry too much about their listed experience.  Anyone can think of good MMORPG ideas, what matters is how well you can turn those ideas into a polished experience.

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6 hours ago, VIKINGNAIL said:

I wouldn't worry too much about their listed experience.  Anyone can think of good MMORPG ideas, what matters is how well you can turn those ideas into a polished experience.

So in other words...

they need the experience to turn those ideas into reality...:rolleyes:

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37 minutes ago, izkimar said:

So in other words...

they need the experience to turn those ideas into reality...:rolleyes:

Nope, those aren't the other words at all, you seem to have missed the point. 

And again, what matters is how well the people on the staff can churn out good ideas into a polished experience, and that is not related to who worked on which mmorpg 15 years ago.  As a matter of fact it is more likely that the talented programmers of today are much better at it than many that were good in the past.

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Ape, I'm actually really hoping to be convinced that I'm wrong and these guys can do it. So if you can cite something convincing, please do.  I want to believe, I really do.

 

Not sure I agree about the assets looking better than CU, maybe in the early days, not now though. I understand that not everyone uses Linkedin, but these guys all have Linkedin accounts. Seems strange not to include relevant experience, but I will admit it's possible.  What you've said about the veterans seems at least partially true. I would feel a lot better if the team wasn't ten devs/artists. If they announced that they were actually going to higher 20 more devs/artists I would probably leave my money in. As it stands, I don't see it.  VikingNail said it well, " Anyone can think of good MMORPG ideas, what matters is how well you can turn those ideas into a polished experience." I Just don't have any reason to believe that these guys have that. Steve Sharif appears to have the passion, and that is why I'm even entertaining this, but he needs a much larger team to pull this off, the experience may or may not be negligible. I tend to think it isn't as unimportant as implied.

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14 hours ago, Santovenia said:

Not sure I agree about the assets looking better than CU, maybe in the early days, not now though.

Steve Sharif appears to have the passion, and that is why I'm even entertaining this, but he needs a much larger team to pull this off, the experience may or may not be negligible. I tend to think it isn't as unimportant as implied.

 

14 hours ago, Santovenia said:

Seems my prayers may have been answered. Now I just have to wait 5 more years....RIP. Thank God Crowfall will be here long before this game matters.

Unlike CF/CU and some others, AoC doesn't "need" our support or so they say. To me this is pretty big.

KS has already been funded as well. If it continues at the typical pace, should pass CU and has already passed CF with ~60% of total backers. Although my guess is many of the CU/CF backers were alt accounts and why so many cheap packages were bought and backer number so high.

If Steven is dumping more personal cash into AoC than what CF/CU have combined potentially, this should go a long way. Money can't make devs do a better job magically, but it can increase the number of them and maybe bring in more experienced talent that cost more as well.

Visuals are obviously subjective, CU's characters have come a long way, but I'm still hoping the structures don't end up with the blocky Voxel look that player created stuff does now. Can't really compare a 4 yr in the works vs 1 year, regardless of engine and even then, it is all subjective.

No matter what, still have a good while until any of these are actual "games" and put to the real test. Concepts, alphas, white board sunshine and rainbows ideas can only do so much. On paper, I think CF is the safest as far as mechanics and potential of being delivered fully. However, what I'm looking for might change by the time any of them release and or I might simply like one better than the other. So the wait continues.

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