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durenthal

State of the Knight June 2017

22 posts in this topic

Hi ACE, me again.

Right before disciplines came out, Knight was in a good place.  Dmg was finally decent, resource management was workable, and our utility powers were very useful.

A lot has changed in a month:

  • Weapon Efficiency is making the class far less fun than it was before weapon efficiency was added.  It's far too punishing compared to say, Confessor's mana costs.
  • I shouldn't have to slot all my disciplines and powers with a goal of having enough stamina to function at all.
  • Block is pretty poor mitigation these days.  Blocking to mitigate damage isn't really a thing any more. We block if the block will reflect some damage or it's a CC inbound, not to reduce damage.  That's a real shame.   Discipline powers like Runescarred Flesh (champ and legio) and illusory armor are more impactful than block in terms of mitigation, and require less tactical awareness, and don't prevent the caster from using other powers.  Mana shield gives confessors superb mitigation.
  • knight mitigation in general has suffered with the advent of disciplines.  Confessor and Champion are now both significantly more tanky than knights.
  • knights really need the 9 and 0 power slots unlocked.  Our base kit feels pretty essential, so finding slots for powers is really challenging.
  • Passive ability overload is real.  Knights need mental fortitude and "hit me" to function, leaving us just one "optional" slot.  It's a tough sell giving up the knight native passive (second wind) because doing so harms our survivability.  There are half a dozen other passives I'd love to slot, but simply cannot because your weapon efficiency mechanics have forced me into a permanent state of resource starvation, and I must slot whatever passives I can to mitigate that.
  • The Master of Swords discipline has a power that restores stamina.  It's a 2 part combo and the first part costs 17 stamina, and the second part costs 13, so it's quite possible that we don't have the stamina available to use the stamina recovery power.  And it appears that we only recover about 30 stam from it, so it's a wash even if I have enough stam to land it.  You eventually fixed this problem on noble blood after a year of me complaining about it, but added it right back to this combo.
  • The knight suffers from not excelling at anything.  Dmg is ok, utility is ok, mobility is barely ok, etc.  Champs are suddenly tanky as hell and do great dmg.  Templars rule group melee with their ridiculous parry knockdowns and durability.  Confessors are, well, confessors.  Duelists rule the ganking world, but aren't great in large melees.  Knight has legit dmg, good CCs (less important in a world with ubiquitous juggernaut), and nothing special to bring to the table.
  • I would really like to see skill nodes added to the knight tree that provide more dmg mitigation for block, and nodes that provide more stam, or more stam regen.

I will continue to play knight as my main AT because it is still playable.  But it feels like it's falling behind many of the other classes again.   The next wave of disciplines may change this entirely, of course.  Just letting you where I think the knight stands at this point in time.

 

Edit:  After some extensive testing, I've come to the conclusion that there is a problem with knight resource regeneration/cost that cannot be attributed to PCM.  I ran a build with -17% stam cost (final PCM of -0.17) with hit me added on top of that, and still ran out of stamina faster than I did before PCM and disciplines were added.

Edited by durenthal
Aguise, Dondagora, mctan and 5 others like this

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I take it the classes not mentioned are not worth mentioning cause they are just lacking so far behind others? 

*poke*

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The Knight's major problem right now is the clunky-ness of the block mechanic. If you use it to mitigate damage, you are left behind by the fast paced nature of a group fight, or you allow ranged opponents to gain a bigger lead on you. The damage bonus from blocking has such a short duration that by the time you catch the target, or regain enough stamina to do anything, the damage bonus is gone. 

Block is great for mitigating melee CC and ultimates (when used by an experienced and skilled player who can read their opponent), but it's a clunky and unreliable way of mitigating sustained dps. Most new Knights I see will hold down right-click, drain their stamina, and be helpless for a few seconds while they get pummeled. 

I'd recommend the following changes:

Allow blocking knights to move at normal speed.

Remove the 1 second cool down from block.

Increase the duration of the "big hit" damage bonus.

 

Edited by soulein
ps
Ranik, Aguise, Rysden and 2 others like this

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The game could really use some fixed point objectives, so people can see how the knight performs in a different type of pvp fight.  Looking forward to the next milestone!

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This is honestly the best post about Knights that I have seen in a while.  You have managed to perfectly explain the problems with the class that I am also having.  We are pigeonholed into certain passives.  This goes directly against what the devs want, I know but still it is frustrating.  We need more options as a Knight.

 

One major problem is the mobility of the Knight.  Of course I understand that the Knight isn't meant to be the most mobile class around.  But when we block, as we have to against say a Confessor, we have no possible way of sticking to our target.  Maybe if the chain attack actually worked the way it was intended to work?  I'm not sure what the solution is other than maybe what soulein suggested and increase the run speed while blocking.

 

One last thing - Please increase the duration of the "big hit" bonus damage!!!

I should be rewarded for blocking the huge CC of the Confessor or a huge Duelist hit.  As it stands right now, I only get to use my damage bonus in melee-only fights because it only lasts for very short time.

soulein and NchDu like this

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in some ways the mana to stamina change also made it worse as well: you lost the 20% 'mana steal' on #3 6 second shield bash part 1.

you can now no longer gain resource from allied support powers

e.g. druid yellow orbs and a legio's eternal rage do not appear to give you stamina regen on use?

also knights are punished against the OP field surgeon rehab that heals based on stamina - so knights will rarely get the OP full heal values it has.


loss of resource gain on hit and on block?


p.s. i did a similar "state of the druid" in feedback. also not good ;p


confessor can be both a better tank AND better healer than both of us ;)


and now others can pick up the spammable cc avoiding basic block too via master of shields e.g. legio/druid

Edited by Tinnis
Sumshine128 likes this

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9 hours ago, Rysden said:

This is honestly the best post about Knights that I have seen in a while.  You have managed to perfectly explain the problems with the class that I am also having.  We are pigeonholed into certain passives.  This goes directly against what the devs want, I know but still it is frustrating.  We need more options as a Knight.

...

I don't think that problem is just with the Knight. I know for a fact legio can also suffer from Rage starvation. I hear with the Myrmidon it's even worse.

Also why the heck is Nova a confessor power?! It should have been the updated version of the Knight's C power. 

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It's really pretty simply. The knight needs a different primary resource. Having everything use stamina is just stupid. Use stamina for your attacks. Use stamina to sprint. Use stamina to block and if you block a big hit, lose even more stamina. How did that mechanic not go away when switching from mana to stamina? Oh, and because knights use so much stamina, they have to train a skill just so they won't have to eat more than everyone else.

Give knights rage or fury or even mana, I don't care, just don't put everything on one resource bar. And for the love of god, fix the regeneration mechanics. Oath of Will sucks. The regeneration should be worked into other abilities, not a separate ability that does nothing else and is buried in a combo.

Rysden, Dondagora and NchDu like this

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35 minutes ago, Arkade said:

It's really pretty simply. The knight needs a different primary resource. Having everything use stamina is just stupid. Use stamina for your attacks. Use stamina to sprint. Use stamina to block and if you block a big hit, lose even more stamina. How did that mechanic not go away when switching from mana to stamina? Oh, and because knights use so much stamina, they have to train a skill just so they won't have to eat more than everyone else.

Give knights rage or fury or even mana, I don't care, just don't put everything on one resource bar. And for the love of god, fix the regeneration mechanics. Oath of Will sucks. The regeneration should be worked into other abilities, not a separate ability that does nothing else and is buried in a combo.

To be fair it is a great mechanic on paper. The simple fact you have to pay attention to anything you do increase the skill lvl required to be a good knight.

That said, i think the knight should NOT interact with the stamina like other classes do. Ideas that i can think right now that could solve most problems:

  • Go crazy on knight stamina regen, like i said knights shouldnt interact with stamina like other classes do. I have no idea on numbers but i believe this would certainly help get away of the resource starvation problem. Increase how much stamina a knight have is also a good idea.
  • Sprinting: I like the idea of knights using a slower running speed but also wasting less stamina. Something like the run people in the army use (marathons are also a good example). This together with chainpull could work pretty well.
  • Since i am not sure on the regen mechanics i would prefer if regen only activate when not using stamina. Meaning that if your regen is +10/sec (random number) and your block is -7/sec (same) you will NOT regen +3/sec while blocking but lose the -7/sec instead.

I like the idea of those weird mechanics so i'd rather they fix how knights stamina work than just dumb it down and use a common mechanic. Of course if they cant fix it it is better to go with something that works even if it is not the most original idea ever.

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The damage reduction from block has also been nerfed heavily. I've been crit for over 1k damage through my block... Not sure why this change was made, but it sucks for Knights.

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Kinda hope they (ACE) see the error of their ways when it comes to limiting the number of ability slots to 8 instead of 10. Templars and Knights have little wiggle room, which pretty makes taking ExMind a must have on them. I'd rather this not be the case tho.

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As a new player, I'm actually glad to see resource management on the Knight is not just a L2P issue. It seems other classes are regularly triggering non-basic abilities but I find if I do I'm quickly in a vulnerable state as I have no stamina left. I then feel like I can't block because it drains what little output power I might have left after gap closing.

I want to stick with the Knight because I'm coming from playing a tank in ESO and I really like the idea of learning what the other class combos look like and blocking at the right time to mitigate the damage and CC. In the current state, though, even when I recognize what's coming I either don't have enough stamina to block or I am able to successfully block but then end up rolling around like a discarded sausage afterward because I've got no juice left.

What are you all doing to help with your resource management? I've been cycling through a basic combo and shield follow up between each ability/combo, but then blocking drains whatever I'm conserving. Are there passives or disciplines you are taking to help?

I really like the idea and general feel of the Knight and it's abilities, but I guess I would echo what I'm seeing above and say I'd like to see more stamina regeneration on the Knight. And maybe this will come as I have more time to invest in the skills, but as a new player with limited exposure the temptation to move to a different class is strong.

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The Knight needs to be able to tank and Block as much as other classes can attack. I feel if we split the Knight's resource into Mana for normal powers and Stamina for Block and Sprint, things would feel much cleaner in general. And, instead of the Block draining stamina, I'd prefer it if it simply reduced Stamina regeneration by a fixed amount [which could go negative and end up in a drain]. This way enemy might be encouraged to bash on the Knight's Block more if they know it has a set limit. Along with this, making it immune to small damage and mitigate large damage would also help its usefulness, since it will be positional [and thus should reward for positioning and is counterable by positioning]. Or, in the stead of any sort of immediate or constant effect on Stamina, make the effect "Damage taken is done to Stamina instead of Health".

 

Point is, Knight should get Mana back so they have more freedom of choice and can properly use their iconic skill more.

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sign. at least knight have some usefull combo in their basic kit + shield with resource restore and block. myrmi in much more ass atm

minuses - he can't use most of their basic kit futures coz resource cost and limited slots =(

also, melee sucks except some OP like champ

 

I think all tanks should get much more HP and better basic mitigations, so they can use heals based on HP and +HP buffs on full power.

also they can make some tankish runes skills/passives with link to class type, so, for example, illusory armor can give +25% to mitigations for tanks and only 10% to dps classes.

also do not forget about possibility to get second bar very soon with minor runes and/or major rune (bow tray)

 

I hope changes will come in near future

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14 hours ago, Dondagora said:

The Knight needs to be able to tank and Block as much as other classes can attack. I feel if we split the Knight's resource into Mana for normal powers and Stamina for Block and Sprint, things would feel much cleaner in general. And, instead of the Block draining stamina, I'd prefer it if it simply reduced Stamina regeneration by a fixed amount [which could go negative and end up in a drain]. This way enemy might be encouraged to bash on the Knight's Block more if they know it has a set limit. Along with this, making it immune to small damage and mitigate large damage would also help its usefulness, since it will be positional [and thus should reward for positioning and is counterable by positioning]. Or, in the stead of any sort of immediate or constant effect on Stamina, make the effect "Damage taken is done to Stamina instead of Health".

 

Point is, Knight should get Mana back so they have more freedom of choice and can properly use their iconic skill more.

(bold font) this way knight can get god mode button.

idea to revert back mana bar is ok.

they can even remake block mechanic like "knight press RMB -> activate block -> no resource drain. if knight get hit, block will suffer some amount of stamina"

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19 minutes ago, makkon said:

(bold font) this way knight can get god mode button.

idea to revert back mana bar is ok.

they can even remake block mechanic like "knight press RMB -> activate block -> no resource drain. if knight get hit, block will suffer some amount of stamina"

Yeah, point is to not be punishing the Knight for trying to do his job. When directional damage becomes more of a thing, the block's mitigation should be severely buffed since the obvious counter to it is attacking from the sides or back.

makkon and Childsbane like this

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11 hours ago, makkon said:

they can even remake block mechanic like "knight press RMB -> activate block -> no resource drain. if knight get hit, block will suffer some amount of stamina"

i disagree, that would just dumb down the mechanic/the game, we dont need brainless stuff like that

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1 minute ago, elvo said:

i disagree, that would just dumb down the mechanic/the game, we dont need brainless stuff like that

it works in other game

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Try giving the Knight rage as a resource. Blocking could build rage in large chunks for every "big hit". The damage bonus from blocking needs to last longer, the mitigation needs to be brought back up from 50%, and reflect should be added to a discipline. 

Jjohnsin likes this

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