ClockworkOrange

ALT prevention

141 posts in this topic

Scripting skills will be very very obvious for ACE to detect. Even if they can't detect the actual software being used they could very easily put in bot traps to catch people using scripts for things like this.

For example 10% of the time you queue up a skill you have to solve a CAPCHA or some other form of anti-bot deterrent. If ACE sees accounts that log in with crazy regularity that continually fail these tests then they can swing the Blair Hammer.

Edited by Zybak
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5 hours ago, Zybak said:

Scripting skills will be very very obvious for ACE to detect. Even if they can't detect the actual software being used they could very easily put in bot traps to catch people using scripts for things like this.

For example 10% of the time you queue up a skill you have to solve a CAPCHA or some other form of anti-bot deterrent. If ACE sees accounts that log in with crazy regularity that continually fail these tests then they can swing the Blair Hammer.

So Non-VIPs are destined to suffer?

I hate bots but the VIP change is basically forcing my hand on this, so you can see how good this change is. In the previous thread there was already people talking about how to bypass that. If your playerbase has to come up with ways to bypass mechanics you implemented to actually enjoy the game something is wrong.

I still think they should take a step back and try to enhance VIP appeal instead of making non-VIPs suffer.

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4 minutes ago, BarriaKarl said:

So Non-VIPs are destined to suffer?

This made me chuckle. Suffer seems a bit harsh of a term in this case. Which is forcing a person to login 5 times over 3 days to manage skills.

Like, basically thats what it is. One person doesnt have to login 5 times over 3 days while the other does. 

 

And thats only on Tier1 skills. Get in to tier 4-5 and its 5 times over a course of 12-15 days. 

 

Suffering on a epic scale indeed.

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On 7/15/2017 at 10:48 AM, Zybak said:

People seem to be forgetting this. You actually have to play the accounts to get value out of them. Sure it'll be nice to have a crafter of a certain type in your back pocket but actually going in and setting up all factories and crafting the items still takes time (assuming you have the resources). Sure it's nice to have a good miner but it still takes you time to go and mine stuff in the world.

Well you sort of argue a case for more general skill trains. And then they can restrict it at the vessel level what you are allowed to do. If you want to stop harvesting and craft, you have to go and switch vessels.

But for crafting, the factories and blue prints will actually -remove- the amount of time and effort that crafting requires. Pushing it toward a more alt driven thing then it is now. 

 

And yes, you do have to actually play the accounts. But they are all skilled up and ready allowing you to experience more of the game.

That is why i plan to run multiple accounts, not because i want all the power and be self sufficient but because at any given time i want more options for my game session then beating on a rock. If a game only offers me one way to enjoy it, when i want to do something else i will go and play a different game, the more frequently this happens, the less i login the first place until i stop all together. 

 

Also, you ignored the elephant in the room, and thats import/export. Alt accounts breaks this mechanic. As long as you can trade resources, this can be abused. (And you can argue you dont even need skill trains to abuse this)

Edited by Vectious

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4 hours ago, Vectious said:

This made me chuckle. Suffer seems a bit harsh of a term in this case. Which is forcing a person to login 5 times over 3 days to manage skills.

Like, basically thats what it is. One person doesnt have to login 5 times over 3 days while the other does. 

 

And thats only on Tier1 skills. Get in to tier 4-5 and its 5 times over a course of 12-15 days. 

 

Suffering on a epic scale indeed.

That's only one skill path, everyone gets two (General/Class), and they won't be lining up with each other.

The worst part is there are periods for both types, where there is zero flexibility on when you log in.  VIP or not, at the 5th pip, if you're not on when it dings, you begin to lose training time. Say you're on that final 2 hours on one of the capstone skills that require 100% complete and you have been waiting for a very long time to get to it.

Now your choice is 

A.) Stay up two hours into your sleep cycle,

B.) Switch training to another thing and only turn it back on when you know you will be around for the ding.

C.) Find someone who has built a bot/macro that lets you sleep and get your training done the way you want to.

Sorry, monumental difference in the long run or not, that basic of a level of mechanical design failure and lack of foresight in how it will be experienced is just incompetent in my books.

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8 hours ago, Vectious said:

This made me chuckle. Suffer seems a bit harsh of a term in this case. Which is forcing a person to login 5 times over 3 days to manage skills.

Like, basically thats what it is. One person doesnt have to login 5 times over 3 days while the other does. 

 

And thats only on Tier1 skills. Get in to tier 4-5 and its 5 times over a course of 12-15 days. 

 

Suffering on a epic scale indeed.

That is per tier 1 skill...   more like log in 3 times every 9 hours, day and night for 3 weeks straight and then you may have some 8+ hour skill ticks built up to get a few good nights rest.   Start a different skill tree and do the 3 week routine again.  It WILL keep people from buying the game.

I am probably overestimating the burden but for certain lots of others are underestimating it.  I can say it plainly and clearly, players without VIP will likely be dissatisfied with the advertisement of the game as Buy2Play. 

Edited by Frykka

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15 hours ago, Vectious said:

This made me chuckle. Suffer seems a bit harsh of a term in this case. Which is forcing a person to login 5 times over 3 days to manage skills.

Like, basically thats what it is. One person doesnt have to login 5 times over 3 days while the other does. 

 

And thats only on Tier1 skills. Get in to tier 4-5 and its 5 times over a course of 12-15 days. 

 

Suffering on a epic scale indeed.

Double that 4 each account. U forgot class skills.

And Blair seems ready to renege on 3 skills in the queue 4 VIP. WTF ACE?

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The way skill time is broken in 5 parts makes it certain that non-VIPs will lose training no matter what tier. There is a high chance the skill will ding when you arent home or sleeping. So thinking that this only affect tier 1 skills is naive.

You can perhaps train other skills to minimize down time but this isnt that good a choice. That isnt perfect and i can come up with times where that cant be done. I believe that with first PIP of any tier will be impossible to not waste time for example.

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35 minutes ago, chancellor said:

Double that 4 each account. U forgot class skills.

And Blair seems ready to renege on 3 skills in the queue 4 VIP. WTF ACE?

Citation please.

 

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On 7/16/2017 at 8:23 AM, chancellor said:

Personally, I think that it's proper to use such a program if ACE violates the implied relationship between entertainer and audience not to intentionally annoy one another.

JTC seemed to understand this implied covenant when he insisted on passive training instead of grinding for "experience". I figure someone just slipped this super-annoying grinding mechanic into CF under Todd's radar.

I only got to like this comment once. It deserves a 1000 likes.

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On 7/16/2017 at 9:43 AM, Zybak said:

Scripting skills will be very very obvious for ACE to detect. Even if they can't detect the actual software being used they could very easily put in bot traps to catch people using scripts for things like this.

For example 10% of the time you queue up a skill you have to solve a CAPCHA or some other form of anti-bot deterrent. If ACE sees accounts that log in with crazy regularity that continually fail these tests then they can swing the Blair Hammer.

Don't you dare put a CAPCHA in the game. Again, annoying players to solve problems are half baked solutions.

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On 7/16/2017 at 9:23 AM, chancellor said:

Fret not. If this annoying mechanic makes its way into soft launch, someone will have written a macro to defeat it without having to log in so often just to maintain the account.

Personally, I think that it's proper to use such a program if ACE violates the implied relationship between entertainer and audience not to intentionally annoy one another.

JTC seemed to understand this implied covenant when he insisted on passive training instead of grinding for "experience". I figure someone just slipped this super-annoying grinding mechanic into CF under Todd's radar.

Really hope you're right. Found out he's back today from two weeks away so there is that.

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1 hour ago, ClockworkOrange said:

Don't you dare put a CAPCHA in the game. Again, annoying players to solve problems are half baked solutions.

Ugh seconded. Captcha's in a video game? That's a horrible way to address botting and penalize non-botting players for something a minority would engage in.

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Again, it's impossible to completely prevent alt accounting without breaking some other aspect of the game, but it is possible to dissuade it with various mechanics.

For Crafting, the method would be customization options. If one crafter who makes staves is different on some fundemental level than another crafter who makes staves, it would make it infinitely more difficult for a small number of people to wholly cover all viable possibilities. For instance, Crafter A makes Fire-Lightning Damage Staves. Crafter B, however, makes Fire-Crush Damage Staves. And so on and so forth, along with various other elements. Essentially, make the Crafting Disciplines be specialized even within their craft, and you'll get as innumerable possibilities for crafters as there are for fighters. An alt crafter could still be able to craft some things, but you'll need tons if you want to get the variety that self-sufficiency needs.

For Heal-Botting, I'd say the best method would be to add Healing Fatigue. This mechanic is similar to Resolve/Stun Immunity. When you're healed, it gives you 5% or so Healing Fatigue. This means that the next heal will be 5% less effective on you. With this, Healers will not just be allowed to spam healing, but will have to be coordinated and smart enough to manage Healing Fatigue on their team. Would also mean we could make more powerful Heals.

Not much to do about Wall Fixers, as I see, though I'm sure there's something to be done, for instance making it so that repairing walls during a Siege impossible. Not outright unreasonable.

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On 7/16/2017 at 11:43 AM, Zybak said:

Scripting skills will be very very obvious for ACE to detect. Even if they can't detect the actual software being used they could very easily put in bot traps to catch people using scripts for things like this.

For example 10% of the time you queue up a skill you have to solve a CAPCHA or some other form of anti-bot deterrent. If ACE sees accounts that log in with crazy regularity that continually fail these tests then they can swing the Blair Hammer.

It doesn’t have to hook into the client to work. Therefore anything that doesn’t has the possibility of being legal. Look up sikuli and you will see you can do a lot with pixel based recognition. Also saying they can “very easily” put traps in place shows your ignorance on the subject matter. The devs will always be a few steps behind. That’s how it works. 

Edited by Tark

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On 7/16/2017 at 10:15 AM, VIKINGNAIL said:

Botting may be easy in low skill-ceiling games, hopefully ACE increases the skill-ceiling.

On top of it I am sure they will use some sort of anti-cheat and take an aggressive stance on botting, last we heard they understand the severity of such issues and how they can destroy games pretty badly. 

Due to the game being in pre-alpha and them focusing on getting the game to release they probably aren't sweating over the people that gravitate towards cheater-like tendencies right now. 

Blair stated you can’t speed hack in this game when I know you can with relative ease. I’m kind of annoyed he pretended you can’t do it. It’s going to be an issue down the road and I hope they don’t take it lightly.  

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4 minutes ago, Tark said:

Blair stated you can’t speed hack in this game when I know you can with relative ease. I’m kind of annoyed he pretended you can’t do it. It’s going to be an issue down the road and I hope they don’t take it lightly.  

Maybe since you know you can with relative ease you could report it to ACE to help them out.

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Just now, VIKINGNAIL said:

Maybe since you know you can with relative ease you could report it to ACE to help them out.

I did. Half tempted to do it in an ek just to show them it’s not “lag”. 

Blair doesn’t play so I understand his skepticism. 

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11 hours ago, Frykka said:

That is per tier 1 skill...   more like log in 3 times every 9 hours, day and night for 3 weeks straight and then you may have some 8+ hour skill ticks built up to get a few good nights rest.   Start a different skill tree and do the 3 week routine again.  It WILL keep people from buying the game.

I am probably overestimating the burden but for certain lots of others are underestimating it.  I can say it plainly and clearly, players without VIP will likely be dissatisfied with the advertisement of the game as Buy2Play. 

Well only every 3 days they have to worry about that 3 times in 9 hours sprint. And it doesnt HAVE to be in the middle of the night, ideally you would do it in the day and since its a 72 hour repeat cycle, you would have it timed perfectly as to not be a sleeping burden. 

 

And i dont see how a person would think they are not getting a Buy2Play model when the only key difference is committing to logging on a few extra times, which honestly, at release people wont be logging off very often. So i doubt it will even be a issue. And again, you can always spend time to earn this feature via the game. 

Dont get me wrong, they need to revamp the scaling between pips by alot, but 5 times in 3 days isint bad, just need to break up the first 9 hours a bit.  

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Just now, Tark said:

I did. Half tempted to do it in an ek just to show them it’s not “lag”. 

Blair doesn’t play so I understand his skepticism. 

I'm sure if you report it thoroughly, and how it was done they will address it when it fits into their schedule. 

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