srathor

I do not like how gathering in Crowfall makes me feel

81 posts in this topic

Anthrage just ganked me on Live 5.2.7.

I have been ganked many many times before. 
This one feels special though. 

I was on my rat. Why? because the rat is the best at getting away. With the loot I have spent much time preparing to gather. With the loot I have spent much boring time actually gathering.
Please note the word boring. Gathering in Crowfall is a chore. It could be used as punishment. Add on top of that the chance that at any second you could be killed does not make the chore any better, it does not make the activity of holding F and exposing you in a pvp game any more fun. 

What is the first rule in any pvp game. Do not stand still. 

Bleh I don't feel like typing up all this poorly made socks. None of it matters. None of it will make a damn bit of difference. 

Gathering in Crowfall is not fun. When I do it, I feel like my time is being deliberately wasted. I feel weak, and exposed.
I feel like I am wasting the guards that I have to have around me time as well. 
I feel like I am fighting the game, and the other players are just the tools of the devs to punish people who dare to gather.

I do not like this feeling. 

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10 minutes ago, srathor said:

It could be used as punishment. 

Haha, good one. xD

Currently i would agree. It was - in my opinion - fun during the BigWorld 3.x, though. Maybe because it was new? Or because people were more often gathering together, because there wasnt much else to do? Maybe because the world now feels smaller, with all those POI's around? I don't know. But i think the sneaky harvester profession will find it's place again, once the real campaign worlds are online and there are more nodes in the world again.  

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I still cannot fathom why gathering requires you to be OUT OF COMBAT mode.

You're essentially using rune tools to do DAMAGE to the nodes so why not require players to be in combat mode? 

This would prevent harvesters from getting dizzy downed at least. You're already at a huge disadvantage since you're staring at a node while hitting it and making a bunch of noise. Why add dizzy down to this?

EDIT: Worth nothing this is currently being compounded by advanced nodes mainly being located at PoI's in the current testing map. Ultimately advanced nodes should be more scattered so solo harvesters are a bit harder to find. PoI's will be a group based activity for the most part. 

 

Edited by blazzen
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There was mention during the live stream, when someone brought up the zoom to harvest issue,  that harvesting is "changing", but only that small amount of a tease was hinted at.

Here is to hoping that they have heard all the complaints, seen the pain of tool decay and damage, and comparisons to crowfall switching "grind PvE mobs" to "grind stationary rocks", and have come up with an entirely new model without breaking too many things.

I would be much happier if they added "harvest ore" as a tray power item, and some sort of beam channel sucked up doobers until the rock was gone for example.  I think they may have also ran into the technical issue of "creating objects is expensive".  Well every one of those doobers is at least one object, and there is often a very noticeable hitch in the game when a large node breaks.  Just dropping them into an inventory stack would prevent needing to make all those new objects.

They may need to change the model for technical reasons as much as aesthetic. 

Fingers crossed.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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3 minutes ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I would be much happier if they added "harvest ore" as a tray power item, and some sort of beam channel sucked up doobers until the rock was gone for example.

does that really make it less boring? Also, wasn't that kind of what they wanted really early on? 

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16 minutes ago, XpCjU said:

does that really make it less boring? Also, wasn't that kind of what they wanted really early on? 

Depends on how fast it is.  Right now part of the problem is all the TIME spent swinging.  If those nodes popped much faster (5-10 seconds), and harvesting tools were built into a discipline, it would not be such a chore. Say at best a node could break at 1/4 every second, the points where doobers trigger, and lack of training could double or even quadruple that time. Fully trained, a node drops in 4 seconds, untrained 16.

They have three levers to pull for managing how many resources enter the universe.  How fast the nodes respawn, how fast you can take nodes down, and how much material taking a note out gets you.  As long as they don't crank up how fast nodes spawn or amount of materials they drop, the take down speed does not really matter unless it's longer than the respawn time.  

I could see them varying the system enough, that a group would want a "harvester" in each combat raid group, just like you always bring a healer/tank/dps, in order to get maximum value out of running around, you would also will want a guy who was missing a few combat powers, and had a harvester tray equipped.

Then you pause the group for under 60 seconds at each bank of nodes, scouts could roam for the next location or targets, and guards stand around a be all social.  I've done that sort of thing with other players before with the current mechanics, and always the problem was people getting impatient with the TIME the harvesting took to get done. When it was trees and apples, it's wasn't a problem, everyone had something to do, but on the ore nodes, people were annoyed at twiddling their thumbs.

EDIT: 

That change would also help the early game issue.  Around the temples there is always ample slag/cobble/knott, the issue is how long it takes to gather those items.  If each node dropped in 4 seconds rather than what it does currently, and the power was aimed so you could do it with a bit of range, that early gather phase would be much much less onerous.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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44 minutes ago, srathor said:

I was on my rat. Why? because the rat is the best at getting away. With the loot I have spent much time preparing to gather. With the loot I have spent much boring time actually gathering.

Did you try to get away? Or to fight back?

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I tried to get away. Had C charged. He outplayed me. I couldn't C with the long term dot on me. But I had a window and took it. Warped away. He got me still So I stopped moving and destroyed what I could. 

Remember. I am gather/crafter specced. With gatherer gear on. And laborer, with escape passives. 

Fighting would have been spitting into the wind. 

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A gatherer speced toon should be able to get away from most classes but not all. It should only be spec scouts or assassin's that should be able to have a chance at getting a laborer. 

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3 minutes ago, Rollo said:

A gatherer speced toon should be able to get away from most classes but not all. It should only be spec scouts or assassin's that should be able to have a chance at getting a laborer. 

I don't agree, gathering should be dangerous. Whenever people are outside their safezones there should be the danger of getting jumped and killed no matter what they or you are specced into.

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There is always that danger. For everyone. 

But the risk of loss is much much more for a gatherer, than a wolf. The gatherer starts with loot. Like potions. Have to have them. and they are on a 12 minute timer. Like Tools. With really weak durability you have to have multiples. So they are open to loot.

There there is the vulnerability aspect.
A gatherer specs for gathering, not combat. Disadvantage 1.

A gatherer gears for gathering, not combat. Disadvantage 2

A gatherer has to disc for gathering, not combat. Disadvantage 3

A gather is making much more noise, it brings combat. Disadvantage 4

A gatherer is focused on the nodes by design. Disadvantage 5.

A gatherer is forced out of combat to gather. Disadvantage 6.

A gatherer has a minimum number of hits no matter how good the gear. At least 20 seconds per node of no movement and making lots of noise with no looking around. Disadvantage 7.

Getting the point? They are doing a gathering revamp. I want to know what they are thinking. Because my past experience of version 1 is not a good one. 

 

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On the current gathering being boring and tedious. I completely agree with srathor.

On the idea that gatherers are overly exposed, I also agree.  Hunters should actually need to HUNT, not just surprise, and the dizzy down if hit while harvesting is just insult to injury.

On the idea that being specced to escape meaning he should always get away, nope.

Anthrage has been around for a while, so I suspect he knows how to track and kill 1v1, which is something that should almost always be possible.

Also, gathering solo is supposed to be dangerous.  

A real problem is it that it's not really a fun enough activity to do as a group, so most players won't, and most gathers just put up with doing it solo.

 

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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1 hour ago, srathor said:

Anthrage just ganked me on Live 5.2.7.

I have been ganked many many times before. 
This one feels special though. 

I was on my rat. Why? because the rat is the best at getting away. With the loot I have spent much time preparing to gather. With the loot I have spent much boring time actually gathering.
Please note the word boring. Gathering in Crowfall is a chore. It could be used as punishment. Add on top of that the chance that at any second you could be killed does not make the chore any better, it does not make the activity of holding F and exposing you in a pvp game any more fun. 

What is the first rule in any pvp game. Do not stand still. 

Bleh I don't feel like typing up all this poorly made socks. None of it matters. None of it will make a damn bit of difference. 

Gathering in Crowfall is not fun. When I do it, I feel like my time is being deliberately wasted. I feel weak, and exposed.
I feel like I am wasting the guards that I have to have around me time as well. 
I feel like I am fighting the game, and the other players are just the tools of the devs to punish people who dare to gather.

I do not like this feeling. 

 

22 minutes ago, srathor said:

I tried to get away. Had C charged. He outplayed me. I couldn't C with the long term dot on me. But I had a window and took it. Warped away. He got me still So I stopped moving and destroyed what I could. 

Remember. I am gather/crafter specced. With gatherer gear on. And laborer, with escape passives. 

Fighting would have been spitting into the wind. 

 

It's unfortunate you see things this way. While I do agree Gathering is a chore, it is part of the game and an important part of gameplay. Choosing to spec as a gatherer, to gather without protecting, is part of the game. I sacrifice my gathering ability by speccing in combat skills. As painful as the activity is for you, imagine how much more so it is for me who does not specialize in it.

All of this is besides the point however, because the real significant point here is that I didn't gank you. You ganked you. For some reason, you chose to destroy your loot rather than let someone else get it. In release, in a close contest on a campaign world I might understand such a decision, but in this context, it's rather cynical, craven and gross. That questionable choice aside, I looted only your Tin ore. No apples, no other ore, none of your many potions and not even your +19 Blue mining pick. As most people who know me can confirm, I never dry loot people, and I certainly don't dry-loot people like you whom I like. Hell if you'd asked me to stop attacking you I would have - as you yourself say, you spec for gathering and escapes, being able to counter that is a challenge, and the only thing out of the exercise I was interested in.

Instead, out of pure spite you decided to delete the fruits of your boring and painful labor, and while I am sorry for your waste of time - it's the reason I don't loot people I don't dislike - frankly you have only yourself to blame.

In any case, while I agree gathering is hard and Gatherers are at risk, I for one don't want them to dial down this risk in release. The Harvesting revamp we have coming will hopefully make it less painful, but it should never be less risky in my opinion.

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As one of the well know 'targets' of solo gathering I'm going to toss my hat into the ring with many of the comments here.

Yes doing anything solo in Crowfall should be dangerous.

but .... its a game not a job and right now there is a level of tedium that does not sync with the desire to 'play' a game. I don't have the answers but the community has been is discussing the items @srathor and @blazzen have commented upon for a while now. My hope is that the upcoming 'changes' can find a balance where playing a gatherer can be close (see I am only saying close not the same) to as rewarding and fun as playing a combat player. If not it will truly be the chore of partially spec'd combat players and alts which , at least to me, goes against the vision we all heard during the KickStarter and in many articles and live streams since then .

Edited by Anhrez
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38 minutes ago, srathor said:

I tried to get away. Had C charged. He outplayed me. I couldn't C with the long term dot on me. But I had a window and took it. Warped away. He got me still So I stopped moving and destroyed what I could. 

I suppose you could try using Field Surgeon's Purgative to strip the DoT first, and then escape with C.

I'm not a fan of destroying loot as a response to being attacked. Dragging resources out of inventory should drop them on the ground as doobers instead. it might even buy you some time to escape while the attackers stop to grab them.

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5 minutes ago, Jah said:

Dragging resources out of inventory should drop them on the ground as doobers instead. it might even buy you some time to escape while the attackers stop to grab them.

Interesting idea, I kind of like it.  Reminds me of the "loot pinata" idea when you kill someone.  

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if i was running away and could drop some loot they would have to decide to keep after or me or stop and pick it up .... could be fun 

I'd have a macro that would drop things stored in a certain location in my inventory

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8 minutes ago, Jah said:

I suppose you could try using Field Surgeon's Purgative to strip the DoT first, and then escape with C.

I'm not a fan of destroying loot as a response to being attacked. Dragging resources out of inventory should drop them on the ground as doobers instead. it might even buy you some time to escape while the attackers stop to grab them.

This alone could have saved the devs a pile of time with all the chest shenanigans.

Dropping an item drops a simple backpack shaped item, filled with everything dropped by any player within 5 m. That would save them having to make graphics for every possible doober item dropped.  I'm sure that is a just a huge amount of unplanned work.

Corpses I think must have a bunch of this code already to copy/paste/modify.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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1 hour ago, srathor said:

Anthrage just ganked me on Live 5.2.7.

I have been ganked many many times before. 
This one feels special though. 
.....
I was on my rat. Why? because the rat is the best at getting away. With the loot I have spent much time preparing to gather. 
.....
Gathering in Crowfall is not fun. When I do it, I feel like my time is being deliberately wasted. I feel weak, and exposed.

....
I feel like I am fighting the game, and the other players are just the tools of the devs to punish people who dare to gather.

I do not like this feeling. 

So you got ganked while out solo farming? Seems like in a game about guild vs guild combat, the correct result for all solo harvest ventures is to end in significant tears.

Getting outplayed and ganked is part of the game cycle.  It's going to happen.

Where was your guild? Do you not have a guild yet?  If you have a guild and went out solo anyway, again that's poor choices on your part.

This game is going to require interdependence (even with skill changes).  You cant go out harvesting alone and expect it to end in anything other than getting ganked.  

I've not gotten to play yet, and certainly a lot of folks are posting that the harvest system is bad (didn't ACE say they were overhauling it yesterday?), but this doesn't seem to be about harvesting.  

In a pvp game like Crowfall, poor choices get you killed and hours of your work destroyed.  That's what consequences are about. Either you harvested without a guild or the guild dropped the ball on protecting you.

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