zauberer

TimeBank allows 33% boost for Paying Players ?

13 posts in this topic

Pic to explain all that

So I was told that you can buy premium tickets for real money and trade them in the game.
This is good for Free to Play users so you can get premium anyway.
But I still have a problem with the Time Bank Systems because it allows a 33%boost for paying players.
Let me explain.

Lets say a non paying Player (Red Arrows) and a Paying user (Green Arrows) both skilling towards "Great Ranged"
Lets say they need 60 days to get there.
Problem is there is this other player / 2nd account who is skilling "Armor".
He skills "Armor" for 30 days and then collects 30 days of time in "Armor".

The Paying User is now able to buy or trade for premium those 30 days in "Armor" and is now 30 days ahead of the non paying user.
Sure the non paying user can trade it for ingame items but that is still a loss of ressources to the him.

I thought about some fixes for this problem.
At first I thought of limiting the time you can spend in a tree to your overall account time.
This would fix that problem but totally destroy the catchup mechanic.
So I thought of limiting the time you can spend in a tree to the time the game went live.


People will still be able to buy tomes for other trees but cant get ahead of other players in one tree.
Catchup mechanic would still be working.

In my opinion a 30% time boost to non paying players is considered as Pay to Win,

Just tell me what you guys think about that, maybe I forgot about something. Your opinions please.

 

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It is potentially an issue. It's been brought up and the the Devs are aware of it. I think we need to see the system in action first but they have stated that if it appears to be a problem they will address it.

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Really I don't see any reasonable XP boost as an issue.  Almost every MMORPG I have ever played has had XP boost events, items, or subscription options. Certainly all the really popular ones have, including the MOBA's. like LoL.

Two years from now it's not going to matter one iota if the guy you're facing got his skill from having a zero day account with no boosting, or just made it a week ago and bought tomes. This is not a first past the post race.

If the game doesn't work with people of mixed skill level playing TOGETHER, players with zero skills standing side by side with players that started multiple years earlier,  then the game doesn't work.  

Edited by KrakkenSmacken
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I think the #1 thing people are forgetting is that the tomes won't be out for the first 3-6 months of the game. By then many people will be further into the training trees which makes it a lot harder to feed a main account with tomes from alts. The longer ACE waits to implement tomes the harder it will be to abuse them. 

FearMe and KrakkenSmacken like this

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1 hour ago, blazzen said:

I think the #1 thing people are forgetting is that the tomes won't be out for the first 3-6 months of the game. By then many people will be further into the training trees which makes it a lot harder to feed a main account with tomes from alts. The longer ACE waits to implement tomes the harder it will be to abuse them. 

I guess this is the point. It's not going to be usefull at the beginning of the game, so it's not going to be a huge problem. Buying EXP for real money by trading VIP ticktes doesn't seem to be a problem to me at all. If u have much more time then others you would be able to harvest more ressources and buy more EXP that way. 

Buying EXP in general on the other hand is a problem imo. We need a catchup, but it should not be driven by ingame (or money) effort. I would recomend to give every new player free EXP based on the time since release. Like 10% Of the time that has passed since release. This way new players would be able to get some basic stuff to start with, but no one would be able to rush through 50% of the system by using time and/or money.

Or a completely other mechanic, that should be driven by the core concept of "high risk - high reward". Like in EvE - Online where you can buy some pretty expensive stuff to shorten the time needed for a new skill level. But if you die the item is also lost. Something like this would better fit to the core concept of Crowfall. 

So long
FearMe

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We have beat this topic to death in several other threads. @KrakkenSmacken point about first past the post etc is mostly true when we view this scenario at 2 years down the line. My problem with tomes was the ability to, 3-6 months down the line when they are released, be able to hit that 2 years worth of training in an additional 3-6 months. The other issues is that 2 years down the line a player with boosting and no restrictions can be at 4+ years worth of training. The efficiency of boosting only gets better as time passes. The arguments of how much advantage that gives a player/guild is still relatively unknown.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jkzIVYi2nHknx2JWkK69VF2Ly8de_jfdWWGnmlj2qZ8/edit#gid=1675419144

Edited by Verot

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45 minutes ago, Verot said:

We have beat this topic to death in several other threads. @KrakkenSmacken point about first past the post etc is mostly true when we view this scenario at 2 years down the line. My problem with tomes was the ability to, 3-6 months down the line when they are released, be able to hit that 2 years worth of training in an additional 3-6 months. The other issues is that 2 years down the line a player with boosting and no restrictions can be at 4+ years worth of training. The efficiency of boosting only gets better as time passes. The arguments of how much advantage that gives a player/guild is still relatively unknown.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jkzIVYi2nHknx2JWkK69VF2Ly8de_jfdWWGnmlj2qZ8/edit#gid=1675419144

Interesting spreadsheet. 

Some of the diminishing returns are off I think. For example, a Non-VIP account would only be able to produce a maximum tome size of 24 hrs. That would compound the diminishing returns.

I wonder what the effect would be if all accounts were restricted to making one Tome every 96 hours (4 days).  So alts could at best transfer 8.3% of training. (1/3/4)

Todd has said, if it turns out it's a problem, adding restrictions to tome use is a thing they can add.

Edited by KrakkenSmacken

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Just now, KrakkenSmacken said:

Interesting spreadsheet. 

Some of the diminishing returns are off I think. For example, a Non-VIP account would only be able to produce a maximum tome size of 24 hrs. That would compound the diminishing returns.

I wonder what the effect would be if all accounts were restricted to making one/ 24hr Tome every 96 hours.  

Todd has said, if it turns out it's a problem, adding restrictions to tome use is a thing they can add.

Non-vip accounts can't produce tomes at all because the minimum needed is 72 hours. This means that non-vip who have attained the level of training they want can't participate in the lucrative Skill Tome market, another benefit to VIP.

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3 minutes ago, Verot said:

Non-vip accounts can't produce tomes at all because the minimum needed is 72 hours. This means that non-vip who have attained the level of training they want can't participate in the lucrative Skill Tome market, another benefit to VIP.

I'm not 100% sure that's the case.  I know the part of the livestream you are talking about, it's really early, and I don't think it's clear that all tomes are 72hrs, it may have just been the cap.

IF what you say is true, and tome production is only allowed for VIP players, that takes away even more risk of 10 account alt training farms as being in any way effective.  I was always under the impression these farms would be pay once, use forever, non-VIP accounts.  

I'm going to post that question in the dev forum, because that particular restriction I think is assumed to not exist by most.

 

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1 minute ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I'm not 100% sure that's the case.  I know the part of the livestream you are talking about, it's really early, and I don't think it's clear that all tomes are 72hrs, it may have just been the cap.

IF what you say is true, and tome production is only allowed for VIP players, that takes away even more risk of 10 account alt training farms as being in any way effective.  I was always under the impression these farms would be pay once, use forever, non-VIP accounts.  

I'm going to post that question in the dev forum, because that particular restriction I think is assumed to not exist by most.

 

In fact chat was already laughing at the concept ppl creating a 1 minute tome of high level and trading unsuspecting players for things of value. being able to clearly see how much time is in the tome and the level/area its for will be vital in the trade window 

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16 hours ago, KrakkenSmacken said:

I'm not 100% sure that's the case.  I know the part of the livestream you are talking about, it's really early, and I don't think it's clear that all tomes are 72hrs, it may have just been the cap.

IF what you say is true, and tome production is only allowed for VIP players, that takes away even more risk of 10 account alt training farms as being in any way effective.  I was always under the impression these farms would be pay once, use forever, non-VIP accounts.  

I'm going to post that question in the dev forum, because that particular restriction I think is assumed to not exist by most.

 

Just because the booster accounts would need to be VIP does not take away from their effectiveness it simply raises the barrier of entry. Recall that with VIP, I can effectively train 6 skills at once. A player could just as easily supplement the cost of the VIP by trading some portion of those other skills to other players. Ultimately though the restriction is money and desire as it always will be under an uncapped skill tome model.

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18 hours ago, Anhrez said:

In fact chat was already laughing at the concept ppl creating a 1 minute tome of high level and trading unsuspecting players for things of value. being able to clearly see how much time is in the tome and the level/area its for will be vital in the trade window 

Well it's not a finished system, and I am guessing the 72 hours was to represent a tier 1 node to completion, so they could just as easily push that into 3rds, and make ALL tomes 24hrs.

It would ramp up the diminishing returns a notch, like compounding the interest weekly instead of monthly, but it would prevent any unsuspecting players stupidity from even being a thing.

With that change, and a limit of crafting 1 tome per day regardless of VIP status, ATL account training would be reduced to diminishing returns of  1/3rd of personal training), which  would make it restrictive enough that 99% of people would not bother pick up an ALT account for the sole purpose of passing on a single training line.

 

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I can't disagree with you that if non-vip can create skill tomes it will result in a bit more DR by changing how often one would incur the DR. This is likely the reason that even though VIP can bank 30 days worth of training, they can't create a 30 day skill tome. With all of that being said my spreadsheet still holds up for the player who has the money to spare, $150 a month for 10 alt farmers is not out of the question for many players. Also keep in mind, that some of the early backer packages contained over 5 years worth of VIP.

Without additional restrictions on top of what was revealed, the system is ripe for abuse. We all quickly identified ways to eliminate abuse, that is not the issue.

Edited by Verot

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