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Kyutaru

Cormorant
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  1. If you actually believe TERA has strong healing, I don't think you're going to be disappointed with Crowfall. A priest's job in TERA is not simply to sit there spamming heals which are easily dwarfed by any tab-target MMO's caliber. They contribute to DPS more than you may think through their support powers which are completely unrelated to healing or staying alive. Healing in TERA is also not a solo effort. The entire team needs to cooperate with you to receive your floor-targeted circle healing. Attempting to heal a pack of newbies who are moving around as they see fit is a challenge. In addition the players are responsible for supplying their own healing through on-hit effects and emergency potion chugging, the Priest doesn't do it all alone. Elder Scrolls had a similar method of healing as did Guild Wars 2 yet you disliked both of those, perhaps because you saw lump-sum instant heals being used every 30 seconds instead of life leeches and Heal per Hit effects. Same system, different delivery. Don't ever say the Guardian and Templar lacked in the healing department either. Now that we've drifted so far off topic, I'll remind you of what was under contention prior to your tangent. The difference is reactive vs proactive. Healing is a reactive solution, Buffing is a proactive solution. When Crowfall shifted away from healing as a primary focus it moved in the direction of reinforcing the usage of preventative measures to avoid receiving damage. It's effortless to read a combat log and understand what just happened. It's genius to read a battlefield and predict what is about to happen. If that still eludes you, I have nothing more to add.
  2. Yes, it does, you're taking a single statement out of context with the rest of what I've posted on the subject when I've given examples supporting it. I'm not saying that you can faceroll your keyboard and still win as long as your gear is better than the other team's. I'm declaring that when one style of gameplay depends on avoiding an attack manually while another relies on passive stats like armor and blocking there's a clear and definite difference in how important numbers become. Strong healing is associated with the latter gameplay style, where your defenses amount to what gear and buffs you presently have on your person and that's it. Tab targeting doesn't allow for much more while the active defense of action combat does. Crowfall's devs are partly responsible for Shadowbane and Star Wars Galaxies. Look at the buffs those games have. This is not what we will get by a long shot.
  3. I asked that balance not be brought into this a few posts ago because we're always assuming things will be tuned until they are right regardless of how the mechanics work. In any well designed system there are counters for everything, regardless of how complex the system becomes. No one here is arguing that healing breaks the game and makes it incapable of balance, we're addressing the EFFECT it has on gameplay and the type of gameplay it forces. The negatives come from the metagame it encourages. Each method has a different impact on the gameplay and I literally just listed some of the important distinctions that make support powers less of a safety net. Healing is by design a stronger system mechanically which detracts from the action mode side of the equation and keeps the game all about numbers, as has already been pointed out above. That in itself makes it by default more OP than the alternative. Again: We are NOT discussing balance or whether or not there are counters to healing in this topic. There are plenty of games that have balanced healing and made it a tactical element of that type of gameplay. The developers are not removing healing from the game because they're afraid they can't make it balanced. This is all about its impact on the gameplay experience. Going back to what I stated previously... Healing is a reactive solution applied when a problem has already taken root to undo the mistakes while something like thorogood's example is a proactive preventative measure applied before you even have knowledge of whether it will be of any use. Healers mend the mistakes of the past while Buffers plan for the future.
  4. That's not at all the same thing. - You can heal the target when it's at 30% health and it will reach full. If you armor buff the target at 30% health, it's often too late to matter. - Crowd control can interrupt a heal the same way it can interrupt an armor buff. But while healing just happens and is over, armor buffs can be removed. They also expire, granting moments of vulnerability unless the cooldowns are short enough to allow overlap. - Healing negates the effort that players put into damaging your target. An armor buff merely discourages attackers and penalizes them if choose to proceed. The damage they would have done can then be turned against someone ELSE in your group. - The counter to healing is MORE DAMAGE, as if you weren't already pumping out as much as you possibly can. The counter to armor buffs is a one-click dispel. Truly, they're completely different beasts with distinct impacts on the gameplay.
  5. The difference is reactive vs proactive. In order to heal someone for 10,000 damage, they need to first TAKE 10,000 damage. Which means the enemy needs to be competent enough to blow their burst dps load on your target. Then the healer simply waves his hand and all that work along with 50 dps cooldowns gets wasted. But if you buff someone with a -75% damage ward, the enemy can choose to IGNORE them. That person is now effectively a tank and focus firing the tanks before everyone else is generally a bad idea that you should only attempt when forced. The tank isn't what's going to kill you when he's the last man standing. Similarly, if you fail to buff the target BEFORE it takes stupid amounts of damage then the target is still going to die even with the armor buff on. Another problem with healers is that they turn PVP into a Burst DPS race. How many hitpoints you have only determines how small your window is. Ultimately PVP becomes about Total DPS vs Total Sustain. Mitigation and Damage buffs become king along with temporary (even short) crowd control because you're trying to destabilize the equation and tip the scale in your favor for even a brief moment long enough to down the enemy. Damage over time is effectively useless by itself unless the sum total of all DoTs exceeds a reasonable amount of Burst DPS. But remove power healers from the equation and sustainability becomes a factor. Death by damage over time or slowly whittling away at your enemy actually becomes plausible. Setting a trap that detonates on enemies out of your reach is actually viable because they can't just undo all the damage they just took. Peppering an encroaching army with catapults, archers, and ballistae MAKES SENSE from a tactical point of view but it's completely pointless when the enemy can just undo all the damage instantly. You aren't required to stay 10 feet away from your enemy hammering the maximum possible damage rotation regardless of your class because there isn't some critical threshold of healing per second that you must overcome for the battle to even be winnable. It shifts the focus of the game from NEGATING DAMAGE TAKEN to the concept of AVOIDING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.
  6. I also enjoyed the class balance of WAR aside from how overpowered Bright Wizards were and how stupidly powerful Order was in general. There was no down side to playing an Ironbreaker and I was at the top of total damage most matches, unless a good Bright Wizard was around, purely through staying alive with its broken amounts of crowd control and survival while dealing consistent damage. My Chosen felt more like a wizard tank who didn't know what he actually liked more, spells or armor, creating conflict within the class spec. But those ideas worked well in a tab targeting game. Having a guy chain himself to an ally and absorb half of all his damage taken WHILE being tanky and healed to full constantly WHILE his ally is jumping around casting in midair might be a bit much for a game with free targeting aim. Ideas like having a Warpriest cause healing to players standing near him when he swings his hammer sounds great in theory, but it kind of falls flat when you remember there is FRIENDLY FIRE and players may not appreciate being anywhere near your kill zone. So far they haven't advertised any class as such and have said there won't be primary healers. There will be healing but it won't be a role. There will be SUPPORT archetypes but that means so much more than mere healing. Some people specced their Priest in Shadowbane for pure buffing because if there was one thing a Priest had going for him it was awesome buffs. It had heals, they just didn't allocate a lot of points to them.
  7. Lephys touched on a good point regarding the reason for MMOs taking this direction. Skill-based combat is all the rage now and more players want it. But it comes at a price as far as perceptions go. I want you to take your ideas of what constitutes tactical gameplay and shelve it for a moment. Declaring that the Rogue class is capable of 1000 dps while the Warrior class is capable of 100 dps is a passive element of the game, something beyond player control that decides in advance what is possible with their character. How much skill is involved with passively mitigating 80% of all damage thrown at you? How different would it be to have to actually block, dodge, or parry manually? A game like Chivalry has players do just that and the result is highly skilled gameplay where any class can defeat any other class even though Knights are about five times tankier than Archers. Since it's an MMO and we don't have the capabilities (yet) to have massive servers calculating the position and orientation of thousands of players' blades in the thick of a brawl there will have to be some concessions. However, I genuinely see the future of MMO gameplay being just that, once everyone is using Google Fiber and heatless CPUs/GPUs finally release. In the mean time, some elements must be passive while others will require active input. From the videos and explanations of Crowfall, active blocking will be a thing. Previously it was merely a proc chance, something you didn't have to expend time doing and could go balls out spamming powers while negating 30% of all attacks thrown your way magically. Keeping a high 80% mitigation partially resulting from passive elements like that AND having active blocking would just be too much power. So mitigation must understandably take a hit. But it's not just blocking... aim-based healing, aim-based crowd control, free targeting damage powers... you can very well miss your target. Essentially, when elements of combat are switched from being passive to being active, the numbers backing them must decrease. When players are given direct control of how and when they block, there needs to be some reason for them not to hold the button down indefinitely. Healing being nerfed to a secondary role is just part of this process because instantaneous life replenishment makes Hitpoint management a passive characteristic in combat. It's something your character doesn't need to worry about at all while your healers worry about it full time for you. In an active skill-based system, health conservation becomes YOUR priority and players will shift towards avoiding damage entirely rather than rushing headlong into the fray of a melee like a berserk barbarian pressing buttons hotkeyed to damage (so much skill that). I don't think any of us want something different as far as the roles go, we all want the tactical gameplay and role-based combat to exist. The difference is in the numbers and actions required. Some are advocating for PASSIVE gameplay where your gear, spec, and macro rotation (numbers) do all the fighting for you like a true RPG while others are pushing for the ACTIVE gameplay where having the best armor and the strongest sword can still mean you lose to that level 1 dagger rogue just like any good action game. From the dev announcements, Crowfall is pushing towards that action RPG combat like TERA has. The more combat is determined by passive number comparisons, the less the active factor of it matters and vice versa. Another upcoming game that's taken this approach is Star Citizen. They could have gone the route of EVE Online easily. Tab-targeting, target locking, auto-firing weapons. Instead, everything is manual aim. Even the electronic countermeasures and "healing" ships require active real-time implementation that requires skill to pull off at all, not simply target a ship and press a button to disable its engines. A smart pilot may even be able to avoid an attempted crowd control stunt pulled on them because of this, or physically block an attempt at healing with his own ship. None of this detracts from the tactical sense of the game. It only makes the combat different from what you're used to.
  8. It'll be like every animated movie ever. There's a program you can run for it. if (creator==Disney) return orgasm; else if (creator==Dreamworks) return elation; else return pain; Of course, there's also the occasional patch and update 1.1 added the following lines: else if (creator=="Square Pictures") return suicidalthoughts;
  9. But Fallout didn't do it, they had bottlecaps too. The set value of items is like how MMOs have values on their trash loot. By your example, EVERY existing MMO has a barter system like Fallout because you can simply load the Sell window with countless trash drops to buy whatever you want from the vendor. Gold is optional. On the player side of things it would also go back to what I said, the community would create currencies that were easier to manage than carrying fifty-seven suits of armor to trade for a single legendary sword. They'd instead deal in some low weight, high value trade good that carries the same backing as those suits of armor. You're right that it's not overly complicated to use such a system because it's the same system that has been in place for every game since EverQuest.
  10. Which is exactly what some MMOs have done... know what players did? They created their own currency standard. Diablo 2 used the Stone of Jordan as a staple trade item because gold was not valuable enough to warrant trading it for items. Path of Exile carried on this tradition with scrolls and runes. In fact, any time an MMO has had worthless currency or no currency at all, players have simply come up with an easily transferable, low weight, valuable alternative to serve as currency -- even if it's Bullets, bulk Rares, or Sheep. You can remove currency from the game. You can't remove the concept of currency from the community. Players want to be able to assign a value to something. Saying it's worth 40 Chickens makes it clear whether or not it's more valuable than something worth 30 Chickens. Supply and demand can change the value of an item, like machine guns being less valuable than apples in Soviet Russia. But having a rough sense of worth is the act of quantifying just how much of a change there actually was.
  11. I think steph's point is that he hated Guild Wars 2 so much that every game that even suggests the possibility of healer removal must be an identical clone. While arguments in favor of a concept backed by genres that succeeded at it flourish, there will always be those who point to that perceived failure when it didn't even set out to make an interdependent party dynamic. Surely we must presume that a game we have yet to even glimpse is doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past rather than learn from them. Guild Wars 2 is not the hellhole it's painted as either. Each class plays uniquely to all the rest like a hero in a MOBA, a champion in a Fighter, or a faction in an RTS. ArenaNet aimed at making a competitive sport where the class you choose didn't matter as much as your skill at playing it, opting to go for differing playstyles instead of forcing party synergy. Removing the Bishop from chess does not destroy the concept of Chess, it merely changes the meta. Strategies were not founded at the dawn of creation requiring a specific set of roles to fulfill. They were developed by human minds according to what pieces were available as part of the set. Remove a piece and strategy WILL remain, only difference is everyone will need to relearn it anew instead of borrowing from past experience. Truly, I believe the ones so adamant against change are merely unwilling to part with that experience. I for one have already experienced the destruction of an archetype in PVP. The tank has had to undergo treatment even in Trinity games to make him a viable asset, going so far as to turn him into just another DPS with a two-hander and stance switching. Murdering one in any trinity game should be an impossibility given how impervious they become against boss monsters, yet in PVP all that armor gets penetrated, all that dodge gets countered by accuracy, and at best they have a few more hitpoints and slightly more durability than the DPS melee. Heck, the original purpose of casters in RPGs was to bypass the strong physical defenses of enemies, making them a natural counter to the Tank archetype. But since players did not like requiring a wizard just to defeat an armored warrior, sacrifices were made and you now have the Slightly More Durable Melee DPS archetype in PVP. It's not just Tanks either... wizards surviving against assassins, healers capable of actually dealing damage like a DPS, we've seen these twists in Shadowbane and the game is over a decade old while being the basis for Crowfall. I say this from past experience -- you'll get over it. I actually enjoy my two-hander stance now and couldn't imagine returning to a world where tanks were nothing but immortal statues that struck with the force of a summer breeze.
  12. I think you're misunderstanding the position these MMOs are taking. It's not to destroy roles and their value on the battlefield but to remove the Hero from the story and insert someone with Flaws and Mortality. There's little difference between a CEO and his CFO but they each play important roles in managing a company. A standard SWAT team isn't comprised of three humans, a Kryptonian, and a vampire... it's just normal people with normal capabilities. You can still have roles that are unique and vital without having superhumans involved in the process, making healing some full health swing, tanks able to shrug off an army, crowd control that lasts minutes, or DPS capable of instant one-hit kills. In reality, the closest we have to a healer is a Medic and he's not going to turn you into a bullet sponge. He can however save your life. He's not useless and the military shouldn't simply scrab medics because they can't bandage a person to full health instantly.
  13. Team Fortress 2 has the best fire hose healing. 1) The healer has to remain within 10 feet of the target. 2) The healer cannot do anything else while healing. 3) The target receives only a heal over time effect instead of full health. 4) The weapon used actually looks like a fire hose. 5) Right-click to activate Ward mode. Despite how quickly people die to guns the one and only healing class is still extremely required just to compete. Where all other classes are pretty much optional. In fact Medic healing Medic and Medic Team Invulnerable Bonesaw Bash Party is a high ranked meta.
  14. The vast majority of players are in the lower tier. Careful whose heads you crack. Having tiered spending like this creates a similar situation to real life. There will be the poor, the middle class, the wealthy, and the great powers. The divide itself isn't terrible as long as the upper classes give back to the lower ones by doing things like furthering the game's existence and development. Almost all free to play games operate on the principle that 1% of the players pay the majority of the costs for the other 99%. However if it gets taken too far, you get discontent, rebellion, and revolution -- which in the gaming community just leads to forum screaming and mass quitting. Kyutaru S.H.I.E.L.D.
  15. Well, this just confirmed my future playstyle. Rob the rich to feed the poor. I hope player trading is something that happens a lot in campaigns because stalking the popular marketplaces is going to happen.
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