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yoh

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About yoh

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  1. Yeah, I'm done. Just got finished with watching the uploaded stream of the crafting system, and it was exactly as I expected. Utter garbage. I had zero expectations going into this, and that's evidently exactly what I got. And whole lot of hot air and bluster over nothing, it's exactly the same mechanics as every other vending machine crafting system I've ever bloody seen from this industry, but with more steps. Depth without engaging is largely pointless, as you won't experience any of it if you get bored 5mins in. All born from the same old tired mindset I always see from these hacks, of only ever taking inspiration from MMO genre, the most stagnant and risk adverse genre there is. And it leads to the same tired old results, boring ass gameplay. (in regards to non combat) There wasn't even a single hint that they were even open to the idea of doing more then that, of actually making crafting remotely engaging. And it was that, that there was no promising future that broke the camels back for me. And I'm tired of making excuses for them, waiting for them to pull their head out of their ass. It's just too easy to do the same old things and pretend as if it's new and exciting. And it isn't just crafting, it's harvesting too, and these are indicative of non combat as a whole. That they have absolutely zero interest in changing or adding any new mechanics that would make any of it remotely engaging. Their putting all their eggs into the combat basket like every other MMO sandbox studio I've ever seen. And I expect the exact same tepid results. Lackluster combat, big empty world with nothing interesting to do because they didn't spend any time making anything else engaging. Same old crap, new skin. Which begs the question, why was it even crowdfunded in the first place if all they were just going to make the same game as if they were under a publisher or investor? Sounds like a scam just to weasel more money out of people if you ask me. Well, I'm not interesting in another soulless sandbox, and I sure am hell not giving you any more money because you clearly haven't deserved it. I'll eat my crow if it turns they take a major change in direction after this, but I'm not counting on it. But I am certainly not going to stick around and continue to make arguments for my position because I've already said everything that needed to be and so as a lot of people, and it that doesn't sway them, nothing will. It's futile to talk to people who aren't listening. And based on these results, they aren't at all.
  2. Since we've switched gears into a discussion on harvesting I'll weigh in. First, not terribly impressed with what has been shown so far for most of the same reasons I've already given on crafting, and this node based approach has been shown to be exceedingly boring. Period. I am in agreement with people here where I think 'Discovery' should be a central element to harvesting. That it's about know how and where to look, then being able to get at it safely and get out with your haul. My particular favorite harvesting games in terms of gameplay are the ever popular Minecraft, Terraria and Starbound. Which has a key difference in which instead of being preset nodes strewn about, it instead had everything be a resource. Instead of collecting stone from a stone node, you just find rocks in the environment and harvest them. From water to ores, trees and plants, even the dirt underneath your feet. Everything is simply collectible, and everything has it's usages. Although somethings are more valuable then others. Which is why the 2nd thing that I love is that it puts ores in the context of spelunking, of diving deep underground searching for you rewards, avoiding hazards and overcoming obstacles, as well as the occasional enemy. Which does a lot to make the very process of gathering far more engaging. The only thing I think that this could use some improvement on is to make it partially a more directed experience. When generally speaking resources are spread out evenly, but occasionally you will have your points of interest, resource hubs that have a lot of a given resource. Like a mine for ores, or a forest for trees, a lake for water (and the treasures it contains). And with the voxal system the game has it could absolutely do this. It would be far in a way more engaging then just walking up to nodes and standing still for a minute. (another pro of this system is since resources are everywhere, your constantly on the move.) The node system is also a very 'gamey' immersion breaking sort of mechanic, like why would I have to go to a designated well to get water, when there is a lake or a river just over there? Why am I harvesting from this stone node while on top of a mountain? And why are only some of these trees in this forest harvestable? It just makes no sense when you think about it. On top of being no fun. So the example I gave is also far in a way more immersive to boot.
  3. I'm not entirely sure what "Blixtev's system" is, I assume somebody has a list of mechanics they want to see. Do you happen to have a link? Generally agree with everything else except the idea of implementing it after launch. I don't think that is a good idea, since you only launch once, and it's an unprecedented time to draw a lot of attention. And if the game doesn't have the core features polished enough to where they will engage and retain that audience, what tends to happen is that a lot of people will take a look, realize the game is kind of a little boring and leave. And most of them simply won't return. Which is why I push so heavily for crafting to be engaging and deep in it's own right at launch, so that the game has a draw, a feature that no other MMO has. That will retain a lot of players who otherwise wouldn't be engaged by combat alone. Do not underestimate how badly people want and enjoy deep, meaningful and engaging crafting, ie building stuff. People really like building stuff. You must have pretty low standards if you call this 'engaging'. It's the same damn crafting system every MMO has with additional steps. It's a vending machine. Get items, slot them in, press a button, get item back. Where the hell is the engagement in that? I realize this is still early days but come on, don't pretend it's something it isn't. This is bare bones.
  4. I could come up with a witty response, but that would give you too much credit for rational thought. But go ahead and use your emotional appeals and ad-populum fallacy if it makes you feel better.
  5. Based on what? I'm sorry, but the preponderance of evidence simply doesn't support you. Archage, Darkfall Online, EVE Online, Mortal Onlne, Starwars Galaxies, Ryzom, Xsylon, EarthRise, and many more. All sandbox MMO's, all either mediocre combat or just out right terrible. And this goes for most MMO's in general with only a handful of exceptions, and the only ones who have risen above had far, FAR larger budgets and teams then this one does. What are they going to build combat out of kitten dreams and unicorn farts or something? Good combat doesn't 'just happen', and it doesn't matter one lick how good it sounds on paper. It's a process of excessive development and testing, or more charitably time and money. Something they are simply in short supply of. Esp with everything else they have planned. When massive budget games fail to very good combat, how do you figure a game with a fraction of that budget is going to do much better? I live in reality, and the sad fact of reality is that this kind of thing simply doesn't happen. All you can do in accept that the combat isn't going to be the best and build around that expectation. Given several more years of development post launch I'm sure it may very well be as good as we all hope it will be, but at launch that is simply too much to expect. It's foolish to think otherwise. Which is why I heavily advocate for additional core experiences being fleshed out and made engaging because they are not nearly as expensive as a good combat system is. You'll get much more bang for you buck that way.
  6. Well I presume you need to be a tester first. And If I am not mistake that is tide to how much money you've invested into the game, I'm not entirely clear on how that works. Thing is that I am fence sitting in a major way atm. I'm waiting to see if Artcraft have any intention on actually making crafting engaging from a moment to moment gameplay perspective, not merely in a metagaming sense. And until they commit to the idea, I have no intention of giving them anymore of my money. I've seen far too many sandboxes do what they are doing right now, where it's all about combat and nothing else, and it always ends up being mediocre with nothing else to do. I've had enough of boring crafting systems, I want to be engaged. And if their not going to do it, I'll look elsewhere. (like Camelot Unchained perhaps) If they do commit, then I would be happy to test it thoroughly.
  7. Idk, Cooking, maybe Alchemy or Necromancer. Depends if there is any mechanical difference between them or not.
  8. If they are going to have cooking, I would kill for it to play like Cooking Mama. I would play the tar out of that.
  9. Sounds like it has a lot of depth. But depth without engagement doesn't get you very much. Still waiting on news on that front, and I am honestly getting sick of them dancing around the issue. I'm happy to take my time and money elsewhere. Hopefully they will put up the stream on youtube before too long.
  10. Your just wrong. Yes this game is a PvP game, that doesn't mean that direct player vs player is the only form of engagement or even the only form of PvP. As competing via the market is a form of PvP, or the haves and have nots of gathering. For some to have resources other don't, thus a form of PvP. And saying that because it's non direct that therefore it should have no principle form of engagement is quite frankly silly. Let me make this abundantly clear to you, no matter how much time or money they pour into combat it will be mediocre. Combat is an unbelievable resource hog. And when you have a massive world you simply can't also have fantastic combat as you would if you had a much more contained experience like a MOBA. Which begs the question if you want just a direct PvP team experience, why not just play a MOBA? Your undoubtedly going to get a better combat experience then anything this game will offer, not at launch at any rate. They just don't have the team size or money to make it any more then that. That's just the sad fact of reality. So even if you are committed to the idea of PvP in a massive world like this, are you going to be content in ONLY combat being engaging? Esp if that it is mediocre by general gaming standards. I for one know in advance that I will not be satisfied by this games combat, period end of story. And I believe this to be the case for a large number of players, who otherwise love the idea of the game, just not in practice. Because in practice it's always the same, mediocre combat, large empty world with really nothing to do in it. It's been done to death. Which is exactly why I push for engagement on other fronts so heavily, because games built around things like crafting and no where near as resource hungry as an action combat system is. There are far fewer standards and so you can get away with a lot more on a lot less. And this should be esp prioritized in this game as the team have already stated that it is a core system, a primary role. Why the hell would you have a primary role in the game not be fun? Why would you spend the time and money only to turn around and think, "yeah we don't need this to be fun at all". I find this approach to be hugely counter productive. Since crafting is going to be a core primary role, integral to the PvP experience, then put some damn effort in and actually make it fun to play for once. This is not a huge ask. And people really have to stop making excuses as to why this cannot be so. It can, it's been done in non MMO's before, it can be here, there is nothing stopping them.
  11. On your first point, you are just completely and utterly wrong, and so is everybody who thinks you can't have minigames. A minigame is just a game within a game. Like Gwint from the Witcher 3, or the several minigames from the Final Fantasy franchise, or even ones from the Legend of Zelda, Anybody who thinks you can't have a game within a game and have it be fun or deep is wrong. The question isn't whether or not it can be fun, but HOW. And saying that you can't apply it to crafting, ie non combat, is utterly ludicrous. Of course you can, and it can be done well, again it's a question of how. As to depth, while I do want a deep system, depth isn't always a good thing, not when it becomes overly complex. As complexity restricts depth. Look at Dwarf Fortress, amazingly deep game, but few people can get pass it's unbridled complexity and play it long enough to experience any of it's depth. Same goes for engagement, your depth doesn't really matter if most people don't enjoy doing it long enough to experience any of the depth. Like EVE Online, very deep game, tremendously boring to the vast majority of us. If you like internet spreadsheets, standing around waiting for hours or days on end, look no further. I don't want a crafting system that is merely deep, I want to have fun in it's moment to moment gameplay as well. Anyone against that idea is literally against the idea of having fun. I don't care if you want to call it a minigame or what, but I want a principle form of engagement in my crafting process beyond pressing a button and waiting like I'm playing with a freaken vending machine. And honestly I'd take just about anything since anything is inherently better then nothing. (well, generally speaking) I'd take a rhythm game like DDR, or an eye hand coordination game like Cooking Mama, even a match 3 game like Adventure Quest. There are plenty of ways to make it engaging while still delivering on depth, and making it more of a skill based system rather then one governed by RNG. I don't give a damn how deep crafting is if I won't have fun doing it. And I already know in advance that standard MMO crafting mechanics (or lack there of) are bloody terrible. There have been deep crafting systems before, there haven't been engaging ones. (not in mmos)
  12. Admittedly I am pretty jaded at this point, but given an shear level of insanity I witness in this industry year after year, It's bloody hard not to be. When you see sandbox after sandbox come out one after another, all boasting how they are new and different, but when it comes down to anything that matters they are 95% identical to every other sandbox that came before them, and then people expect different results? You kind of just get fed up with a genre and industry that refuses to have meaningful change. Now to be fair a lot of this is the result of publishers and investors often time funding MMO's, and thus having different priorities then devs or the player base, and given the shear amount of money in play they are very risk adverse. Which is why a crowd funded project such as this is the only real chance of getting any bloody change. Which is why it is doubly frustrating when I see the game and the devs sprint down the same tread, bulldozed, razed and covered with bloody salt path that every other sandbox MMO as gone down, again expecting different results. A sandbox that is intensively only about combat and nothing else is doomed to mediocrity. And simply having a feature in your game, doesn't make it fun. Mechanics matter. And I am just so sick and bloody tired of crafting (and non combat in general) always getting the short end of the development stick, even when it been made exceedingly bloody clear over the last couple of years that this is something people not only greatly want this, but enjoy it thoroughly. Look at Minecraft, Terraria, Starbound, Stardew Valley. All commercial hits made on a relatively small budget. At this point there is no excuse for the lackluster gameplay and mechanics that is standard in this industry, If we applied this same concept to combat, nobody would tolerate it. So you can see why I get kind of pissy over this. The way I see it there are two different elements at play here. 1, Is what you pointed out, of having a system that is deep and meaningful, where your decisions matter. Having a lot of options plays into that. This is made all the more potent when you build it into a real world like economy, ie EVE Online. 2, Is the moment to moment gameplay elements, the shear enjoying of doing. And this is the part I get hung up on as it effectively doesn't exist in the MMO industry, yet has existed for years outside of it and done very well. And is again evidently not prohibitively expensive. I see these two as chocolate and peanutbutter. They've been proven to work extremely well on their own, people can't get enough and regularly say as much, and yet no game has yet had the brass balls to put them together. And I expect the first game to do this to likely be rather successful, and that's putting it mildly. And yet there is constantly so much resistance to the idea that I find baffling. And while the team still has plenty of time and room to tackle this problem, honestly their lukewarm response in addressing it has given me a great deal of pause. Making me question whether or not I will support them in the future. I'd like to, I want them to succeed, but only if they a willing to take the risks and steps necessary to make meaningful change in this industry, and personally this is my #1 feature; as it is indicative of their mindset and development process going forward. I can accept failure, but I cannot accept thous who refuse to try in the first place. I just hope for their sake that they listen to the people who have been yelling at the top of their lungs since day 1, that they want crafting (and non combat in general) to actually be fun for once. It's not much to ask. We'll see how this stream pans out.
  13. After reading through the FAQS, I am rather unimpressed. I noticed something was curiously absent, fun and engagement. At no point does it elucidate that crafting will have any principle form of engagement, or that the system will be in any way fun to participate in. Like every over crafting system ever made in an MMO over the past couple of decades. Which is very telling. That despite being a 'primary role', having any form of engagement or enjoyment of said role is at best an afterthought. Like every other sandbox I've ever seen. While Blair did say they were at least having a conversation about it, and how it could be done, that doesn't encourage me much as that is the bare minimum that they should be doing. I want to see brass tax not just that they intend to have engaging crafting. but suggested ideas on how they might go about it. I want to see them committed to the idea, not just talk about it privately. Talk is cheap. Because my central problem is without engaging crafting, it tells us almost everything we'd ever need to know about how you view non-combat activities, as mere after thoughts, that don't need to have any form of engagement, and are as a result simply not fun. Which becomes a problem in a sandbox MMO based around combat as said combat is almost always mediocre, as you can't have a massive world and also expect to have excellent combat as you would in a more contained experience. Somethings got to give. Esp with a team size and budget that this game has, it's a forgone conclusion the combat will indeed be mediocre at best. Which leads to the inevitable question of, what is there that is actually fun to do in this game? When your combat is only so-so, and you have nothing else, then how are you any different then the multitude of other sandbox MMOs that have come out over the past couple of decades? Many of which I will remind you have either failed right out of the gate, never even reached launch, or do launch only to lose most of it's potential audience because it's by all right not a fun game to play. At best it will be just another niche title with a pitifully small player base. If I wanted a deep crafting system, in a huge world, with no engagement or fun to speak of, combat or otherwise - I'd play EVE Online. But I don't, because it bores the poorly made socks out of me, even if I love the idea of it, I loathe the moment to moment gameplay. And so far, the is very little to convince me that Crowfall will be anything other then yet another rendition of the exact same ideas every sandbox MMO is made of. Combat is everything, everything else is an afterthought. I've seen this movie, I know how it ends. PS: If you want a suggestion for a game that does have excellent crafting mechanics, go no further then Cooking Mama. It's a simple but fun series, check it out. But I will honestly take anything. As any form of engagement is inherently better then none.
  14. Lephys more or less covered what I wanted to say, but I will say this. It's not a slippery slope when you have a evidentiary basis. It's a logical inference. If you see a house that is lit of fire and it burns to the ground, and you see that happen repeatedly, wouldn't you conclude that lighting houses on fire will (without interference) burn them to the ground? And if you did have the experience of the past decade of sandbox MMO's trying and often failing to greater or lesser extents when trying to do the exact same thing, wouldn't you start to conclude that maybe it's a bad idea to do the same thing expecting different results? Not having that experience would make you naive, yes. I'm not saying that the entire project is up poorly made socks creek, but what I am saying is based on my experience what they are doing with harvesting is a giant red flag, and it speaks to a mindset that tends towards the generally poor results that I see from most sandbox MMOs. Remember that the lead developers of this game are relatively old. They may be experienced, but that's not always a good thing. Old people tend to be stuck in their ways, and just not question why they do really stupid poorly made socks. Which is why I am here questioning them as to why they are doing stupid poorly made socks. (thou I am hardly the only one to do so) I'm less concerned with the 'idea' or 'promise' of the game, or the hero worship of it's developers (although Alison is a badass), and more about results. Naturally the game is still well and truly in development and it can still go either way at this point, but little of what they have done or proposes has impressed me or stood out from the myriad of other sandbox MMOs that have come out over the past decade, with a few notable exceptions. But they are hardly the first to have a few good ideas in what is otherwise the same product. Long story short, it'll take more then a few tweaks around the edges to fix the core underlying problems with this genre. And I'm not confident that they are doing any more then that.
  15. I can't speak for Lephys, but I fall into the camp of 'I'd love to do it, but only if it wasn't completely agony'. Normally non combat activities don't interest me, specifically because they get the least amount of mechanical engagement of any feature. For the same reason I don't like cutting myself. It's painful to do. As soon as it's fun I'll gobble that stuff right up.
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