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goose

Testers
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  1. Like
    goose got a reaction from entityofsin in game mechanics leans too far on gathering   
    I wasn't referring to myself when I pointed out your animosity toward vets. I came in here being a bit of a hooligan because of what I read from you earlier in the thread. Your disrespect and unwillingness to have reasonable discussions was the basis I started from, so I didn't expect any different.
    But...this also does sort of drive the point home, no?
    Edit: just to reiterate, I agree with some of what you've said and disagree with some of what you've said, but I disagree with how you've said all of it, and how blatantly unwilling you are to accept anyone who disagrees with any part of what you say might have a point.
    I've seen how you treat anyone who doesn't immediately agree with everything you say, and I'm not really interested in having a discussion if you continue to do so, as you have so far continued to do.
    Some of your complaints are valid complaints that have been addressed in other threads and by the developers. No need to rehash the same arguments over again. Instead, I've tried to provide with the tools to find the other discussions, those tools being A: the forums, and B: the link in my signature. And C: reading, I guess.
    Use them as you will.
  2. Like
    goose got a reaction from entityofsin in game mechanics leans too far on gathering   
    Yes, and as other people have pointed out, the valid parts of your commentary have already got many many many many MANY active threads filled with productive discussion on how to further the game in the future. Why not go read some of those and educate yourself instead of arguing with someone you don't think is open to productive discussion?
    Edit: also, no, forums are not for bitching. The fact that people go to them to gripe notwithstanding.
    This isn't your dumpster when you're having a bad day, and if you try to treat it as such, expect some vitriol to come flying back out, because some of us recognize that the dev team works their ass off to make this game come to life, and would like to see them appreciated and successful when the game launches.
  3. Like
    goose got a reaction from entityofsin in game mechanics leans too far on gathering   
    Not set on KEEPING it boring. Set on FINISHING THE BORING STUFF QUICKLY. Pre-alpha is ALWAYS BORING.
    Pre-alpha testing also does not resemble the finished game.
    What part of that is unclear?
  4. Like
    goose reacted to Nyamo in game mechanics leans too far on gathering   
    Darwick, mind that this is my personal opinion, but beandip has been received the comments he received because he presented his feedback and handled other people comments to his OP poorly. I'm pretty sure if he would have been nicer he would have gotten more support. Mind also that trash-talking to players that have been spent years giving feedback to the devs and have been here since day one was one of the reasons that caused a chain-reaction. It's like if someone you have just met starts trash-talking to one of your friends. What will you do? You would normally join to defend your friend.

    The lack of basic understanding on how social behaviour works, and the of some basic understanding of netiquette and a mature way to present arguments is what lead this thread to degenerate. I assure that I have seen hundred of times lot of veteran players helping new players, assisting them and answering their questions and some of these veteran player came from the most hardcore-pvp oriented guilds that would cut off your throat in game but if you ask politely for help will gladly spend time to teach you what you need to know.
    Not to mention we (me and you and all the other kittens) do this on a daily basis in our guild.
  5. Like
    goose reacted to srathor in Skulls, Soulstones, and Eternal Servitude   
    Why is this not already a thing. 

    Take a Skull



    Add in a rough Soulgem for the low quality ones. Or a polished soulgem of someone more worthy.




    Enslave them to an afterlife of Servitude




    Then put their thralls to work in your EK. 



    Come Buy the thrall of Tark. On Srathors Lawn. 


    Happy Monday!
  6. Confused
    goose got a reaction from Malignus in game mechanics leans too far on gathering   
    I wasn't referring to myself when I pointed out your animosity toward vets. I came in here being a bit of a hooligan because of what I read from you earlier in the thread. Your disrespect and unwillingness to have reasonable discussions was the basis I started from, so I didn't expect any different.
    But...this also does sort of drive the point home, no?
    Edit: just to reiterate, I agree with some of what you've said and disagree with some of what you've said, but I disagree with how you've said all of it, and how blatantly unwilling you are to accept anyone who disagrees with any part of what you say might have a point.
    I've seen how you treat anyone who doesn't immediately agree with everything you say, and I'm not really interested in having a discussion if you continue to do so, as you have so far continued to do.
    Some of your complaints are valid complaints that have been addressed in other threads and by the developers. No need to rehash the same arguments over again. Instead, I've tried to provide with the tools to find the other discussions, those tools being A: the forums, and B: the link in my signature. And C: reading, I guess.
    Use them as you will.
  7. Confused
    goose got a reaction from Malignus in game mechanics leans too far on gathering   
    Yes, and as other people have pointed out, the valid parts of your commentary have already got many many many many MANY active threads filled with productive discussion on how to further the game in the future. Why not go read some of those and educate yourself instead of arguing with someone you don't think is open to productive discussion?
    Edit: also, no, forums are not for bitching. The fact that people go to them to gripe notwithstanding.
    This isn't your dumpster when you're having a bad day, and if you try to treat it as such, expect some vitriol to come flying back out, because some of us recognize that the dev team works their ass off to make this game come to life, and would like to see them appreciated and successful when the game launches.
  8. Like
    goose got a reaction from kukwes in game mechanics leans too far on gathering   
    Not set on KEEPING it boring. Set on FINISHING THE BORING STUFF QUICKLY. Pre-alpha is ALWAYS BORING.
    Pre-alpha testing also does not resemble the finished game.
    What part of that is unclear?
  9. Thanks
    goose got a reaction from killerkat in Whats the point of crafting taking time?   
    I mean, the way I test is by logging in 2-3 times a month to see what's different, because I don't like testing. I've done it for a paycheck, I've done it for free, and ...I don't do it for fun in either case, 'cause I don't..find it...fun.
    At the end of the day, feedback like yours is good, and more of it is more good, so I don't mean to seem like I'm poorly made socksting on your opinion - I am not. Just saying that pre-alpha often benefits from a shift in mentality that, anywhere else, might be considered detrimental to the gameplay experience. But it isn't my opinion that pre-alpha testing is more about how to break the game than how to optimize it, just so we're clear. Until pre-alpha ends, every new patch is a chance for everything to break, because pre-alpha is building the bricks and the foundation that will be used to construct a house, and sometimes the bricks come out round and no one is quite sure why.
    The more round bricks you can ensure come out brick-shaped before you need to start layering them on top of one another, the fewer bricks will need to be taken back out later on. Best analogy I can come up with.
    But every little (or large, from the sound of it) bit helps, and like you say, we all test in our own ways.
    Edit: hmm. in retrospect, I guess it is kind of my opinion that pre-alpha testing is "MORE" about breaking the game than about optimizing it. honestly, you're laying the foundation to do both in roughly equal measure, so..I might be putting more emphasis on the part of that equation that I got paid to deal with. coders optimize; game testers break. neither part is necessarily more important than the other, but only one of them requires someone know how to talk to Unity.
  10. Thanks
    goose reacted to Angelmar in game mechanics leans too far on gathering   
    The new player experience ("NPE") is awful.  Without training in harvesting it is painfully slow.
    Eventually you can pull down thousands of ore per hour in a group, but its completely valid to point out that many noobs will never see that day if the NPE sucks.
    The Devs are aware the NPE is not great, but have said they are waiting until closer to launch to do polishing on it. 
  11. Like
    goose reacted to killerkat in Whats the point of crafting taking time?   
    That is you opinion, and mine differs.
    Bugs in my opinion are exploits, whether low priority or otherwise, to me it's an exploit so refrain from doing it.
    And I believe that things are far enough along that the things I am testing, which are the things I care about mostly, are going to be in the finished product and resemble the intentions of the designers.  Is there work to be done and things to be change, yes.  But I do not think they will be so different that the things I enjoy are going to make the unenjoyable.  I test the parts that I plan on playing, and I test the crap out of them and give feedback.
    But me throwing out common ore by the hundreds is minor to the outcome of the game design.  I only said that to prove a point in my statement about having excess where he was saying there wasn't going to be any.  Come live the guild I'm in will have 5 times as many people if not more activly playing, so I am sure I will not be dumping or selling ore as I am atm.
    But I understand your position and have nothing against it.  It's just not my style so don't.  But have nothing wrong with those that do.  As we all test in our own ways.
  12. Like
    goose reacted to APE in Whats the point of crafting taking time?   
    Haven't cared too much about crafting as staring at bars is no fun for me, but is there any current or planned options to let players choose how their time is spent?
    Craft Speed Option - Pump out lower quality gear fast. Increase the timer and get a chance at powerful items.
    Stare at the UI and decrease the craft speed vs leave an item at the station and walk away, but it takes a good deal longer to finish. How invested are you in that item's outcome?
    Not a fan of RNG based systems, but seems like something could be done so that RNG swings in favor of crafters the more time they spend actually crafting aka staring at the UI and bars fill up.
    While I like the factory/blue print concept (if I understand it correctly), but at the same time, if one is able to mass produce an item great or poor, there should be some risk involved. The more produced at once the longer it takes for each, possible RNG that some turn out less than the original (there QC Thralls checking the line?), cap on stat/power vs a single one off item.
    Just some ideas that might be a middle ground so those that want 1 click items could have their way and those that want to watch bars fill up for hours could as well. For me, there should be risk/reward cost/benefit to everything. Seems like RNG is the main cost/risk with crafting, which to me is unfortunate as it removes the power of choice from the player.
  13. Like
    goose reacted to PopeUrban in Whats the point of crafting taking time?   
    This is my political platform now.
    "Assume you agree. There are a lot of words here. Its just easier that way for both of us."
  14. Haha
    goose reacted to tsp_maj in Whats the point of crafting taking time?   
    @PopeUrban tldr but I’m going to assume that I agree.
  15. Like
    goose got a reaction from KrakkenSmacken in Not Confident ACE Knows How to Make Economy Work   
    Eh, that's also potentially true - deconstruction of dungeon drops yields some of the materials that would have been used to craft it, though at a reduced rate if you are a master crafter and only up to a maximum of around 15% of the materials used, before level cap. Gear at level cap uses 10x as much material to craft that gear at the level below it, which reduces the efficacy of that particular conversion somewhat.
    But it's not nothing.
    Edit: though I WILL say that it is much easier to collect large quantities of harvesting materials in ESO, and fewer of them are needed to craft viable armor than in Crowfall, so the rates for harvesting probably need another look unless they've increased dramatically since the last time I played.
    Edit 2: also, I just re-read your post, and it seemed like you were asserting that the "harvesting" done in dungeons and raids impacted the in-game economy. It does not - gear from dungeons and raids can't be sold on the in-game market, so it is a complete non-entity on that front, except insofar as which pieces of gear are build-essential and therefore worth farming dictating which of the gear pieces that CAN be sold on the market actually have value.
    I will grant you that the ability to acquire functional gear without engaging with the market reduces its importance somewhat, but I disagree with the premise that this is in any way analogous to harvesting as it relates to the crafting systems that enable the market. They are almost entirely separate systems, except in regards to deconstructing useless gear drops you got from dungeons in order to use between 2% and 15% of their constituent parts to craft things you can sell.
  16. Like
    goose got a reaction from KrakkenSmacken in Not Confident ACE Knows How to Make Economy Work   
    I didn't bother to read most of the posts above here in this thread, so you'll have to forgive me if someone else has already pointed any or all of this out.
    I also want to preface this by saying that your opinion on whether or not the game I use as an example is fun or not is totally irrelevant - what I'm going to discuss here is based on numbers, not opinions, though I will present my best guesses as to what causes those numbers using primarily my opinions and best attempts at logic. However, I am not an economist, so..grain of salt.
    Elder Scrolls Online, frequently measured as one of the 5 most active MMOs by active player count, has one of the most vibrant game economies I have ever seen, and it is almost entirely player driven. There are NPCs and they sell some things, but outside of Achievement Furnishers (which sell unique furniture pieces to place in player housing for often insane amounts of gold, but will only sell them to players who have earned the requisite in-game achievements, hence the name) and the Master Writ merchant (who sells some very useful items, but this time in exchange for a unique currency called Writ Vouchers, which are earned by completing...Master Writs, hence the name), the items they sell are either extremely common, of limited use, or both.
    In order to get your hands on the best gear/items/furniture, you have only two options: either go out and play the game yourself, farming dungeons and looting boxes until you get the drops you covet, OR engage with the in-game economy.
    ESO has a relatively deep harvesting and crafting system, though it pales in comparison with the intended scale of Crowfall's, and harvesting especially lacks the active engagement of Fortnite or more recent builds of Crowfall. However, by minimizing the time investment required to engage in harvesting and by making the economy accessible to any players who want them, they have managed to create an almost-entirely player-driven economy that has at least dozens, and probably hundreds, of people who only log on to make gold. For fun. Using market-centric addons through the use of which they manage their vast economic holdings, using their gold only to buy whatever recipes or furniture designs they don't already know on their primary crafter, and running guilds of up to 500 players with the primary intent of keeping the game's economy running.
    I am currently in a guild run by a small handful of these people, who together run four separate guilds with 500 people each, and in a game where making several thousand gold an hour is considered a reasonable rate of earning for farmers, they have spent tens of millions of gold decorating the guild housing areas, which themselves cost as much as several million gold to buy. They regularly run raffles in-guild and engage in a whole separate economic system just to control their market stall, as these stalls must be bid on every week in order to have their ownership maintained, with winning bids in prominent locations sometimes costing as much as more than one of the most expensive, mansion-sized houses in the game. Each week. Forever.
    Now, to the crux of the issue, the actual things that drive the economy. Well, since the vast majority of the best gear in the game is available only by doing the content that drops it yourself, since they have adopted the common tactic of enabling player trading for dungeon and raid drops only among members of the party that earned it and only for two hours after it drops, the only things for sale in the market are player-crafted items, materials for other players to craft said items, materials that anyone can acquire if they are willing to take the time to farm them (for example, rare recipes for food or furniture), or occasionally overworld drops that are especially rare and useful. Stop me if this is starting to sound at all familiar.
    Remember, this game - regardless of what you think of it - has one of the most active playerbases of any MMORPG online today, and among those games has one of the most effective economies of any I've ever seen, without any of the inflation observed in WoW, and all of this in spite of a few things I keep seeing described as "glaring flaws," such as A: the lack of any centralized auction house, B: the need to sit through sometimes multiple loading screens to go shopping, C: the fact that none of the best items in the game can be sold on the market, and D: the fact that harvesting is extremely basic, bordering on downright boring.
    In fact, A and B strike me as particular non-issues because ESO is notorious for its worst boss: The Loading Screen Boss. If that was such a problem, you would think that the requirement that one sit through as few as 2-3 but as many as literally dozens of loading screens to shop around would be an absolute dealbreaker. In the interest of not mis-representing the issue, one reason it isn't is that there are tools, both addons and web-sites, that track stock of the various vendors with various degrees of accuracy in order to generate a search engine of sorts with limited functionality to help those in the know save time, but even people who use those have to A: sit through loading screens and B: race the other people using those sources and searching for the same things. I might even argue that those features, however unintentionally, are some of the driving forces behind the economy, when combined with the tangible in-game value of the things being sold, and the in-game or aesthetic value of the things you can acquire by acquiring more gold.
    In other words, ESO actually serves as a surprisingly reasonable representation of the intended goal of Crowfall's economy. Yes, there are some significant differences, such as the permanent degradation of equipment in Crowfall, but those differences are not significant enough to entirely remove them from the field that Elder Scrolls Online acts as a proof of concept for.
    It is perfectly possible that the model Crowfall is aiming for only works in ESO because of the size of the playerbase, and that with a new IP it will fail to take off, but there isn't nearly enough data to support that idea, in my view, and I never see anyone proposing any in threads like this one. The premise is sound, though Crowfall's goals will be pushing its limits, in my estimation. But maybe people should wait until the game has launched, or at least entered beta, before they try and decide what single features, or a lack thereof, will or will not stop it from functioning.
  17. Haha
    goose reacted to thomasblair in Blair Math   
    I was even the Honor Grad from my electronics class!


    People just tend to get snarky (no way!) when we make mistakes (or don't agree with how something works), and I am one of the more visible faces of the team (so pretty much have a bullseye painted on me at all times).
  18. Like
    goose reacted to KrakkenSmacken in Nobody playing?   
    Lock us out of maybe one campaign.  Congratulations to the kings of an empty world.
    Players can just move away from CN.  There is no way they will be able to lock up every campaign, especially since ACE is planning on account level limits to how many campaigns you can be in.  If they abandon to seek out victims, other people can move back in. 
    Dying worlds and campaign choices is going to make it next to impossible to ruin everyone's fun through zergs.
     
  19. Like
    goose reacted to KrakkenSmacken in Nobody playing?   
    Ironically enough, critical mass is being held up by optimization, which is being worked on but is prone to frequent breakages with how fast development is happening.
    Combat is suffering from large lag and msg spikes as player counts go up.  ACE is working on it, but every patch can have something new that needs to be optimized. 
    Also the frequent resets mean everyone has to start from zero gear and skills.  The start of the game if there is no players already supporting the economy, is difficult.
    Also, as Todd puts it, we should be getting whiplash from all the balance swings at this stage.  One week your choice of race/class is so OP it's not funny, last week it was Scimitar Druid, the next week it was nerfed into oblivion. (At least according to some people).
    That level of instability is keeping people away I suspect.
     
  20. Like
    goose got a reaction from Frykka in the time bank should not be a thing.   
    Passive skill training was explicitly stated to be one of the two primary systems for skills-related character progression as far back as the Kickstarter, yes. The other was "active use," which if memory serves was going to be capped at some amount, but that eventually got removed, then later on was effectively replaced with the ability to level vessels.
    The Kickstarter was a few years ago, so a lot has changed, but the core concept behind passive skill training is one of the few things that is still exactly as they first described it. Edit: well...almost exactly. After all, they replaced archetypes with a race/class system, but the system itself is still the same...
  21. Like
    goose got a reaction from KrakkenSmacken in the time bank should not be a thing.   
    Passive skill training was explicitly stated to be one of the two primary systems for skills-related character progression as far back as the Kickstarter, yes. The other was "active use," which if memory serves was going to be capped at some amount, but that eventually got removed, then later on was effectively replaced with the ability to level vessels.
    The Kickstarter was a few years ago, so a lot has changed, but the core concept behind passive skill training is one of the few things that is still exactly as they first described it. Edit: well...almost exactly. After all, they replaced archetypes with a race/class system, but the system itself is still the same...
  22. Like
    goose reacted to srathor in Is crowfall fundamentally boring?   
    They can have different worlds. Different rulesets. 

    Dregs could have 10 different worlds with that ruleset. One could be doomworld like the world in Ready Player One. Just non stop pvp go go go. Full Loot. Import anything you want. Loot all those weaker than you. 

    Play to crush. Week long seasons. In and out in a flash. Only the strongest survive. 

    Another could be terminator style. Pop in naked. Local skill tree only. (Start from zero, for that world only, 5x training speed. Skills go away once done.) Only 1 import. Make it a good one. 

    They are not just making a game. They are making a game system. If it is successful the friggen sky is the limit. 
  23. Thanks
    goose got a reaction from RikForFun in Smuggler Discipline (previously Enchanted Bag)   
    Okay, so I'm not particularly interested in engaging in the argument about whether or not X person is making Y argument or whether arguments are valid. I'm gonna state my case and leave, because this thread is derailing quickly and I don't have the time or energy for a protracted debate.
    When I played Crowfall, if I went out farming stuff, the math was very simple: keep farming until I find one item that I wasn't willing to lose to a lucky gank, then immediately dip the custard out. This was essential because there was no security net in place, such as what you proposed. If I had been able to designate even one single item in my inventory as immune to being looted, then every time I went out, I would have been able to stay out risk-free for twice as long.
    Even if your proposed bag shield only protects five items and can only be activated once an hour, that just means that I can stay out without any risk of loss for 5x as long as I otherwise would have once an hour. If I get ganked, I can either wait an hour, switch to an account whose shield is online, or go back out with the normal amount of risk. This enables 3 potential scenarios where previously there was one, only one of which puts me at any semblance of risk. That means it is creating two new risk-free scenarios that only advantage me, the harvester.
    Furthermore, even assuming there was somehow a way to prevent the multi-account situation, having a system like this in place disincentivizes risky behavior. That isn't an opinion; that is just a fact. It is added reward with no added risk. In a game where risk versus reward is supposed to be a factor in every decision, there is never any scenario where not using this is better than using it, because it is fundamentally unbalanced.
    However, I could see there being value in this sort of thing existing if its opposite also exists. For example, if there is a Secret Bag discipline, it could be countered by a Pro Scavenger discipline, which allows you to loot secret bags. A killer (or thief) equipped with this discipline would be able to ignore the safety net, forcing the harvester to weigh whether having that discipline was worth the loss of another depending on how many threats were around and how many of them they believed or knew to have this counter-discipline around.
    This would also potentially lead to interesting interactions, say if one guild knows that their opposed guild doesn't have the discipline required to counter Secret Bags, and so they make sure that they capture the NPC soul that allows it to be crafted, maintaining their advantage as long as possible while also creating a conflict where there otherwise might not be one.
    Without a way to counter this ability, I agree that it is bad, for reasons that I and others have clearly elucidated. But that doesn't mean it can't be fixed.
  24. Like
    goose got a reaction from PopeUrban in Smuggler Discipline (previously Enchanted Bag)   
    Okay, so I'm not particularly interested in engaging in the argument about whether or not X person is making Y argument or whether arguments are valid. I'm gonna state my case and leave, because this thread is derailing quickly and I don't have the time or energy for a protracted debate.
    When I played Crowfall, if I went out farming stuff, the math was very simple: keep farming until I find one item that I wasn't willing to lose to a lucky gank, then immediately dip the custard out. This was essential because there was no security net in place, such as what you proposed. If I had been able to designate even one single item in my inventory as immune to being looted, then every time I went out, I would have been able to stay out risk-free for twice as long.
    Even if your proposed bag shield only protects five items and can only be activated once an hour, that just means that I can stay out without any risk of loss for 5x as long as I otherwise would have once an hour. If I get ganked, I can either wait an hour, switch to an account whose shield is online, or go back out with the normal amount of risk. This enables 3 potential scenarios where previously there was one, only one of which puts me at any semblance of risk. That means it is creating two new risk-free scenarios that only advantage me, the harvester.
    Furthermore, even assuming there was somehow a way to prevent the multi-account situation, having a system like this in place disincentivizes risky behavior. That isn't an opinion; that is just a fact. It is added reward with no added risk. In a game where risk versus reward is supposed to be a factor in every decision, there is never any scenario where not using this is better than using it, because it is fundamentally unbalanced.
    However, I could see there being value in this sort of thing existing if its opposite also exists. For example, if there is a Secret Bag discipline, it could be countered by a Pro Scavenger discipline, which allows you to loot secret bags. A killer (or thief) equipped with this discipline would be able to ignore the safety net, forcing the harvester to weigh whether having that discipline was worth the loss of another depending on how many threats were around and how many of them they believed or knew to have this counter-discipline around.
    This would also potentially lead to interesting interactions, say if one guild knows that their opposed guild doesn't have the discipline required to counter Secret Bags, and so they make sure that they capture the NPC soul that allows it to be crafted, maintaining their advantage as long as possible while also creating a conflict where there otherwise might not be one.
    Without a way to counter this ability, I agree that it is bad, for reasons that I and others have clearly elucidated. But that doesn't mean it can't be fixed.
  25. Thanks
    goose got a reaction from Lightsig in Smuggler Discipline (previously Enchanted Bag)   
    Okay, so I'm not particularly interested in engaging in the argument about whether or not X person is making Y argument or whether arguments are valid. I'm gonna state my case and leave, because this thread is derailing quickly and I don't have the time or energy for a protracted debate.
    When I played Crowfall, if I went out farming stuff, the math was very simple: keep farming until I find one item that I wasn't willing to lose to a lucky gank, then immediately dip the custard out. This was essential because there was no security net in place, such as what you proposed. If I had been able to designate even one single item in my inventory as immune to being looted, then every time I went out, I would have been able to stay out risk-free for twice as long.
    Even if your proposed bag shield only protects five items and can only be activated once an hour, that just means that I can stay out without any risk of loss for 5x as long as I otherwise would have once an hour. If I get ganked, I can either wait an hour, switch to an account whose shield is online, or go back out with the normal amount of risk. This enables 3 potential scenarios where previously there was one, only one of which puts me at any semblance of risk. That means it is creating two new risk-free scenarios that only advantage me, the harvester.
    Furthermore, even assuming there was somehow a way to prevent the multi-account situation, having a system like this in place disincentivizes risky behavior. That isn't an opinion; that is just a fact. It is added reward with no added risk. In a game where risk versus reward is supposed to be a factor in every decision, there is never any scenario where not using this is better than using it, because it is fundamentally unbalanced.
    However, I could see there being value in this sort of thing existing if its opposite also exists. For example, if there is a Secret Bag discipline, it could be countered by a Pro Scavenger discipline, which allows you to loot secret bags. A killer (or thief) equipped with this discipline would be able to ignore the safety net, forcing the harvester to weigh whether having that discipline was worth the loss of another depending on how many threats were around and how many of them they believed or knew to have this counter-discipline around.
    This would also potentially lead to interesting interactions, say if one guild knows that their opposed guild doesn't have the discipline required to counter Secret Bags, and so they make sure that they capture the NPC soul that allows it to be crafted, maintaining their advantage as long as possible while also creating a conflict where there otherwise might not be one.
    Without a way to counter this ability, I agree that it is bad, for reasons that I and others have clearly elucidated. But that doesn't mean it can't be fixed.
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