I support Crowfall and I support RP in Crowfall. I should have a pretty obvious track record for that at this stage. I hope noone doubts that.
*troll* doom and gloom* *rant* *fanatic*
One thing Mctan: I please want you to take for granted that Im being sincere. Do you really think Im trolling by speaking my mind on this issue? Do you think Im not being sincere and that I havent considered my words carefully enough? I always like to think that even if people percieve me as unreasonable that I'm at least trying my best to stay on the topic. I cant answer all points and might miss a few though. Its also entirely possible that I'm wrong sometimes - but Im not spamming all these words simply to troll. They are my very real thoughts on the issue.
Also - to be honest I think Im being quite elborative and concise in my arguments - I go to great lengths to explain, often giving examples. I can't help but notice that you're accusing me of ignoring your points, but generally not explaining where mine are failing? I feel my posts have already answered you - so its not that I ignore you , but rather I feel you were already answered sufficiently. If my posts ARENT answering you well enough please point to where Im failing.
I dont think anyone should be afraid of a well-reasoned discussion of the things they love. Just like others like to discuss combat mechanics I like to talk about RP mechanics. I dont think its doomsaying to point out percieved weaknesses and offer ways to address them? Noone would say such a thing in the discussion on FFA and friendly fire, for example.
So anyway: Here goes:
The primary systems you described as foundations to role-playing are in Crowfall (and perhaps expanded by Crowfall), with the exception of respawn mechanics.
To which I responded no they dont: I'm sorry if that came accross as glib - but it was an answer, and I did try to clarify what I meant: I thought I described quite well The primary mechanisms which dont exist are character persistence and gamelore driven gameplay. I will discuss them further below with examples however. "respawn mechanics" are the beginning of what I described as the persistent character experience - but I dont think you've thought about respawn as anything more than a gameplay function. I want you to consdier it as an element of the wider persistence aspect I am describing as an RP device - Please reread my previous 2 posts on this. I wil go into greater detail below as well.
In particular, Shadowbane offered me such wonderful experiences not because I was attached to my role as a Dwarf Prelate, but because I was committed to my friends and guild, clearly against (human) enemies and wishy-washy with others, and attached to our attempts of survival, land ownership and defense, and domination.
What you describe is a subjective gameplay experience: There's really nothing to answer here - You had a lot of fun doing different things and your character wasnt wiped every time it died. It didnt deteriorate: you had a single persistent character experience. Maybe when you had several different characters for several different gameplay purposes? Shadowbane sounds like it had a traditional mmorpg persistent character experience... which I spent nearly a thousand words describing in previous posts as pretty frikkin important.
My avatar died many times and killed many other players...
Well we need to be very clear: persistence is not about character death. Elves die in WoW. Elins die in tera.
Character Persistence is about character permanence. Imagine after 3 deaths I took away your character - or set the game to hardcore mode so you lost it after every attempt.. OR maybe how about I let you play and develop that character over many months and then one day take it away from you. As I described to some extent, mechanisms like permadeath and deterioration and chacter swap are the antithesis of the character persistence mechanism that is common to most major MMOs - and I described in extreme detail why such a mechanism was important.
Character persistence is pretty straightforward: You create a character and play with it. No matter what happens in the game world you will always return to that character. The Game experience is based around that character, and that character will follow a development path: it will learn skills, grow, evolve, suffer setbacks.
Players become intimately familiar with that character, and since they defined it at the outset, have a sense of loyalty to it. Even its inherent flaws and weaknesses become part of that intimate familiarization. Im essentially describing a bond at the human socioconscious level: As creatures of empathy we are perfectly capble of transmitting and transferring very real emotional value into digital relationships.
Obviously there is a sliding scale: Many players simply won't think they care. For example - Ape and a few others describe gameplay expereinces where this aspect of empathy didnt really seem to count. Perfectly valid!. Some will see thier characters as a kind of digital pet at best. A large subset of players are simply there for gaming enjoyment. Arguably the prime audience for Mobas falls into this bracket - and there are lots of them.
At the other end of the scale (Usually the RP crowd) we have players who most extremely identity and empathise with their digital characters.
Neither camp has a monopoly on "the right way to make a game." Except its important to understand that NEARLY all gamers are affected in some way, to a greater or lesser degree: there is a HUGE segment of plaeyers in the middle of these two camps - the majority of gamers. I am describing a mechanism that applies to them as well.
It is a direct appeal to human instinct and a preconditioned aspect of human nature to build this type of bond. This is what makes Roleplay such a very real immersive experience, if you do it right. As I said before.
remember what I said though: Roleplayers are the canaries in the birdcage. If they are happy then it means there is a persistent gameplay experience there that other players will also enjoy (Albeit to probably a less-geeky degree ).
MMORPG designers understand this bond and as much as possible encourage it - because it has offers several very real opportunities: It increases gamer loyalty (players want to spend more time with or vicariously-as their virtual character) and it can be monetized (for example: cosmetic items pets etc.). No game developer should ignore it. every game developer should cater to it.
My avatar died many times and killed many other players, but in essence, the "lore" of the game was created by people - doing exactly what you want because as you say,
I'm a roleplayer - and I love the idea of player driven lore, but I am under no illusions as to where the burden of defining a comprehensive game system lies. the Canon lore of the game IS the rp game system as much as the gameplay mechanisms.
I described the importance of lore and predefined systems as RP devices - and how important they were to anchor the RP persistence element.. I will try to be specific about this: The primary RP mechanism I think is most absent, related to game lore, is lore-driven gameplay design. Art+Craft are using a "gameplay drives lore" design aproach.. things like the deities are being designed simply to facilitiate team-based game mechanics, rather than pursuing a story for its own sake - which is more like Blizzards approach.
"Why should this matter? Crowfall is not a PvE game!" I hear everybody cry...
Well neither is Overwatch (the example I used, but Blizzard still felt the need to define quite a deep story. Arguably it is only becuase of the background Titan stuff that Overwatch came about..:
I will give examples of the difference- please bear with me.
Heres a really simple example:
Game design driving lore is where for example every hitbox for every archetype should be equal size: Easy to balance but every character fits a common pretty generic mold. Better for game design - worse for gameplay diversity. Easy to understand.
Lore driving game design is where someone says "We have to have a guineacean because its part of our world" and so then a character with a smaller hitbox has to be made. The result is a more complex gamedesign, and potentially issues with gameplay balance, but increased gameplay diversity, and a richer lore environment.
So.... Imagine that I took the writing team of Art+Craft away from the development team.. and *Forced them* to write a story - an epic lore. To dream as big as they can.. and then to come back and give it to the developers... The result would be gamelore driven gameplay, and I can promise you it would be more condusive to the Player experience as regard persistence and vicarious immersion.
Blizzard take this approach even on Overwatch - but also you can see the results of heavy story driven lore directing gameplay in strategy games like starcraft 2. Once they commit to a lore canon thats it...
And yes absolutely Players can write and direct their own lore - but one should never make the mistake of thinking player based stories can replace canon lore.. Player Fiction works best in the world it serves. If veryone has a different world there is no consensus: There is no Roleplay - only fan fiction.
Later you say:
My point is simply, you may be focusing too much on your desire to attach to an avatar for a long duration or through many interactions while missing what Crowfall offers that could be seriously better than many of the MMORPGs you listed; that is, the sandbox/themepark distinction:
I really believe I'm not speaking from personal desires, but rather Im observing the absence of familiar devices. Im basing this on my experiences as a gamer and as a Roleplayer - as an amateur fiction writer. I also took a few online courses in game design so the chances are Im overnerding some of this stuff - but I dont think my perspective is entirely unobjective. I consider this mechaism as fundamental to eve Online to tera to BDO to ESO to Overwatch to Secret World to Tera to Star Citizen to Elite Dangerous to ... yeah. Ive played a lot of games.
Anyone who knows me knows RP is my interest. Lore is something I take very seriously as a building block of a persistent character experience. I depsair its absence even in games that dont intentionally cate rto RP because I know what that absence means. I also put my money where my mouth is. My level of investment in Crowfall is currently around the 600 dollar mark. My level of investment in Star Citizen is around 6000 dollars. I can honestly say that is a direct consequene of the amount of Lore in these games (Star Citizen has way more lore!). the day CF releases its lore V1.0 I will stick another 1000 dollars in there. I also run CrowfallRP.com and stuck 200 dollars in prize moeny for a competition for players to write RP for Crowfall. I hope I can persuade you that Im serious about this stuff.
you can affect the world, your interactions actually matter in shaping the space in which you play your role, and you can choose from a variety of roles not available in those games. The shared worlds of almost all of the games you listed would look and act the exact same way whether you played them relentlessly or never. Not the case for Crowfall.
If the way I affect the game world is only a gameplay mechanic then I am not achieving the persistent character experience. I can affect the gameplay state of a game of chess but that doesnt mean I am going to form a personal attachment to a character. Nor do I expect to be able to be left alone to write the rules (the lore) of a game of chess.
tl;dr Let's say (hypothetically) vessels/crows winds up to by the nightmare you imagine, Crowfall still (hypothetically) offers game systems that allow more roleplay, in the way you describe it, than the games you compare it to. If you still hate it, then I guess it's not a good game for you...
its not a nightmare.. Im not sure why this level of discussion is considered trolling or doomsaying or anything. I await more information in Art+Craft to deliver these mecahnisms or describe how they will build others (that maybe I havent thought of). I am a roleplayer at the very deep end and I struggle to RP in Crowfall. I have spent a bit of time trying to dientify why. Also ive tried to figure out why our RP community is so abnormally small. Ive watched the discussions related to the vessel system and Ive seen the prioritisation for gameplay over lore. I'm putting two and two together and explaining what I see.
having said all that: this was never meant to be more than a conversation. I think Crowfall is in good hand sand have faith in the Devs.
Discussing these things is not the same as panicking about them. I wonder if maybe Im approaching this in a way people havent considered before - and you know the old saying "People fear that which they dont understand".
Nothing Im describing is very new - As I said before these RP devices have been around for 40 years. I simply ask people to consider that they are far more important, and usually far more invisible than people are aware of.
I hope this helps.
TL:DR - Your previous post began with "these mechanisms already exist in CF.. and I feel they arent. I explained why I thought so - but perhaps not well enough so Ive tried to revisit my thoughts and be more specific to your particular arguments. Please read this post as a supplement to the previous 2. Sorry that that is a lot of reading: this is not simple stuff to discuss.
Bnol - I also hope I have answered your post sufficently?