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Founders' Update: Defining "pre-alpha" - Official discussion thread


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This is an excellent point: "some of the suggestions are common sense and should really be taken seriously."   Which ones, specifically? It's not as if there is ONE voice from the players, saying "X

@Urahara, I think you've misunderstood my point.     We aren't "unwilling to change things because other people might not like the change." The point of that statement is: we aren't going to treat t

The words pre-alpha, alpha and beta get thrown around a lot in software development. Different companies use these words to communicate different things to different people.    FULL STORY

I really love the frequent updates never seen that from devs :D

Well said, furry little woodland creature.

"To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of weird sandwich, not some nut who takes on three Tigers".

On 6/9/2015 at 3:44 PM, Tyrant said:

 

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Agreed

 

Sorry if this hurt someone's feelings but i think the whole thing of "it's alpha/beta/gamma" excuse doesn't matter at all. An opinion is an opinion, feedback is given freely and people should try finding their answers with good arguments for that, but keeping cool and respectful between players so both can argue like human beings: "I don't disagree with you, i just think that way".

 

And this game state thing confusion happens a lot since it's way more open to everyone, so i don't blame too much on artcraft or players, it's just too new for many here.

 

I'm not sure if i just noticed this here, but i don't remember developers so willing to say their thoughts about this situation [there are a lot, just can't name them maybe], but things apart you are doing a great job!

Ples don mind me bed gremmer, i'm Apollo Gise

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Encouraging words, especially in light of some recent threads. 

 

A lot of us initially gave Crowfall the time of day because of who the devs were, what games they came from and what they themselves claimed to want in a game. Going in blind with nothing else, and trusting in that initial leap of faith that the final game will be attractive to us, is still something i would be confident in doing given what the devs have said they wanted from the beginning.

aka honeybear

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"The truth is that the general populace isn’t well-acquainted enough with the game development process to recognize a non-textured environment, for instance, and assume that’s the final look we are going for. (And, really, why shouldn’t they? A lot of people don’t want to know anything about how a game is made. They just want to buy it, play it, and have fun. Fair enough.)"

 

I want to know! (Can you show me... :P) Actually, since I'm in college learning about game design and animation, I have been sharing Artcrafts updates and videos with my classes (we are all super pumped for Crowfall). I'm excited for the no NDA since I can see a game still in development and how you as a developer react to issues and what the community says about certain things. It's awesome to see a game take shape. Keep up the good work!

Edited by FrostSword

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I totally agree with what Todd stated in this article.

 

You can't please everyone and even if you try it wouldn't work.

 

I've beta tested Shadowbane and then played on release, it was in the same process as Crowfall : a real beta test with servers crashes commited to druid morphing into werewolf and flying (haha that was so funny) or when the earthquake was added in the panel and was crashing the server too (and so we were forbidden to use it :D)

 

So yeah, maybe pre-alpha is not an excuse for everything, but it's still an excuse to see the game evolve and take a great place in our MMO world.

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Thelanas Kar'Pal Membre fondateur de l'alliance Naerth en 2001 - Ex Shadowbane European Advisor Damnation/Carnage/Vindication/Corruption http://www.twitch.tv/gorwald/profile

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It's good to understand that you can't please everyone....

 

I think people lay on the criticism and are a very hyperbolic at times but it is also understandable because there are so many games that have been in development, where the devs said they were listening to the players (that doesn't mean they have to cater to every suggestion) but just ignored certain advice because they were so sure that some of their ideas would work.

 

There's been a lot of debate with crowfall especially about movement, animation locks, camera... it may seem arrogant but some of the suggestions are pretty common sense and should really be taken seriously.  You don't really want a game where movement and camera work and combat are unfun or tedious, especially if the trade-off isn't very obvious. 

 

If things go according to schedule they should be adding the client-side controller soon, it will be interesting to see how much this changes the feel of the game for people...

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Very well put.  Just last night Tyrant was being so pleasant to players who seemed to be upset at the state of the game.  From a players point of view who is also very technical, I get it and understand, so it frustrates me when they get that way.  He, on the other hand, was very nice and understanding about which seemed odd to me at first, but I get it now.  Thank you and your team for all your hard work, it is paying off!

Tanom of the WhiteWalkers

 

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You were GIVEN 6million dollars....There are things out of budget? How?

 

They were not given 6 millions dollars.

 

Kickstarter campaign was : 1,766,204 $

 

Global Pledges (kickstarter + website after) : 2,439,060 $

 

The 3,560,940 $ come from personnal funds from Gordon and Todd so yeah : http://crowfall.com/en/funding/

 

And there are things out of budget if they try to please everyone, it's what Todd tried to say in the Article

 

 

Ask a dozen people on the forums and you’ll get a dozen different answers…. and that’s with people who don’t even know the relative cost; it’s simply an opinion based on ‘what they like better.’

Edited by Gorwald

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Thelanas Kar'Pal Membre fondateur de l'alliance Naerth en 2001 - Ex Shadowbane European Advisor Damnation/Carnage/Vindication/Corruption http://www.twitch.tv/gorwald/profile

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There's been a lot of debate with crowfall especially about movement, animation locks, camera... it may seem arrogant but some of the suggestions are pretty common sense and should really be taken seriously.  You don't really want a game where movement and camera work and combat are unfun or tedious, especially if the trade-off isn't very obvious. 

 

This is an excellent point: "some of the suggestions are common sense and should really be taken seriously."

 

Which ones, specifically? It's not as if there is ONE voice from the players, saying "XYZ is broken."  There are dozens and dozens of voices, and they all disagree.

 

A few builds back, mouse sensitivity was completely off.  Totally wonky.  THAT was one voice.  Fixing it was common sense.  and so we did, immediately.

 

"animation locks are bad"

"combat is too slow"

"combat is too fast"

"you need to add strafing"

"you need FPS controls"

 

...these changes are all expensive, interconnected (meaning they will break other things, it's not as simple as just 'hacking them into the game over a weekend'.) They are also all matters of play style and opinion.  As soon as we change one of the above, one group of players will applaud us, and another group will curse us because 'the system was better before and why are we wasting our time breaking it and catering to those complainers?!'

 

Does that mean we won't look at these ideas, and potentially change the game?  Of course not.  It doesn't mean that at all.  

 

I'll remind you that in the kickstarter video, the combat included telegraphs, ala wildstart.  Tons of telegraphs.  Damn place was sick with 'em.

 

We took the pulse of the players.  Some players liked telegraphs.  Many players hated them.  In the end, we didn't really like them either, so we made a call that we thought was right for the game, and we removed them.  We did the same thing with tab targeting.  Same thing with firehose healing.  (Same thing with...)

 

My point being: if something seems "like common sense" to you, and yet we're not addressing it, you might want to pause and consider why that might be.  It could be that you're dramatically over-simplifying the cost (and splash damage) it would incur.  It could be that you're assuming something as 'obvious fact' that is actually just your opinion.   (and no, having half a dozen of your guildies agree with you doesn't make it less of an opinion.)

 

...or it COULD be that we've made a bad call, and we'll figure it out eventually and come around to your way of thinking.  

 

In that case, the best thing you can do is lay out your opinons and advise in a clear, concise (!!) way and let us aborb it, chew on it, and incorporate it.**  

 

As I said in my post: we can't make everyone happy.  On the plus side, we don't have to make everyone happy to make a great game.  so we're going to spend our time worrying about the latter.

 

Regards,

 

Todd

ACE

 

 

** FWIW, the opposite of this is true as well: if you want your opinion to be ignored, the best thing you can do is use a tone that is accusatory, sarcastic and disrespectful.  There is only so much time in the day. If someone can't respect me and my team, why should I waste even a moment worrying about their opinion?

J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

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This is an excellent point: "some of the suggestions are common sense and should really be taken seriously."

 

Which ones, specifically? It's not as if there is ONE voice from the players, saying "XYZ is broken."  There are dozens and dozens of voices, and they all disagree.

 

A few builds back, mouse sensitivity was completely off.  Totally wonky.  THAT was one voice.  Fixing it was common sense.  and so we did, immediately.

 

"animation locks are bad"

"combat is too slow"

"combat is too fast"

"you need to add strafing"

"you need FPS controls"

 

...these changes are all expensive, interconnected (meaning they will break other things, it's not as simple as just 'hacking them into the game over a weekend'.) They are also all matters of play style and opinion.  As soon as we change one of the above, one group of players will applaud us, and another group will curse us because 'the system was better before and why are we wasting our time breaking it and catering to those complainers?!'

 

Does that mean we won't look at these ideas, and potentially change the game?  Of course not.  It doesn't mean that at all.  

 

I'll remind you that in the kickstarter video, the combat included telegraphs, ala wildstart.  Tons of telegraphs.  Damn place was sick with 'em.

 

We took the pulse of the players.  Some players liked telegraphs.  Many players hated them.  In the end, we didn't really like them either, so we made a call that we thought was right for the game, and we removed them.  We did the same thing with tab targeting.  Same thing with firehose healing.  (Same thing with...)

 

My point being: if something seems "like common sense" to you, and yet we're not addressing it, you might want to pause and consider why that might be.  It could be that you're dramatically over-simplifying the cost (and splash damage) it would incur.  It could be that you're assuming something as 'obvious fact' that is actually just your opinion.   (and no, having half a dozen of your guildies agree with you doesn't make it less of an opinion.)

 

...or it COULD be that we've made a bad call, and we'll figure it out eventually and come around to your way of thinking.  

 

In that case, the best thing you can do is lay out your opinons and advise in a clear, concise (!!) way and let us aborb it, chew on it, and incorporate it.**  

 

As I said in my post: we can't make everyone happy.  On the plus side, we don't have to make everyone happy to make a great game.  so we're going to spend our time worrying about the latter.

 

Regards,

 

Todd

ACE

 

 

** FWIW, the opposite of this is true as well: if you want your opinion to be ignored, the best thing you can do is use a tone that is accusatory, sarcastic and disrespectful.  I only have so much time in the day... if someone can't respect me and my team, why should I waste even a moment of my time worrying about their opinion?

You are right with combat is too slow and combat is too fast situation, but you can add option to enable FPS controls, in fact you may already have that option, im not part of the beta, just a simple suggestion.

 

And well, even we can force FPS camera with 3rd party program , I guess you just said that one as an example

Edited by Eren
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This is an excellent point: "some of the suggestions are common sense and should really be taken seriously."

 

Which ones, specifically? It's not as if there is ONE voice from the players, saying "XYZ is broken."  There are dozens and dozens of voices, and they all disagree.

 

A few builds back, mouse sensitivity was completely off.  Totally wonky.  THAT was one voice.  Fixing it was common sense.  and so we did, immediately.

 

"animation locks are bad"

"combat is too slow"

"combat is too fast"

"you need to add strafing"

"you need FPS controls"

 

...these changes are all expensive, interconnected (meaning they will break other things, it's not as simple as just 'hacking them into the game over a weekend'.) They are also all matters of play style and opinion.  As soon as we change one of the above, one group of players will applaud us, and another group will curse us because 'the system was better before and why are we wasting our time breaking it and catering to those complainers?!'

 

Does that mean we won't look at these ideas, and potentially change the game?  Of course not.  It doesn't mean that at all.  

 

I'll remind you that in the kickstarter video, the combat included telegraphs, ala wildstart.  Tons of telegraphs.  Damn place was sick with 'em.

 

We took the pulse of the players.  Some players liked telegraphs.  Many players hated them.  In the end, we didn't really like them either, so we made a call that we thought was right for the game, and we removed them.  We did the same thing with tab targeting.  Same thing with firehose healing.  (Same thing with...)

 

My point being: if something seems "like common sense" to you, and yet we're not addressing it, you might want to pause and consider why that might be.  It could be that you're dramatically over-simplifying the cost (and splash damage) it would incur.  It could be that you're assuming something as 'obvious fact' that is actually just your opinion.   (and no, having half a dozen of your guildies agree with you doesn't make it less of an opinion.)

 

...or it COULD be that we've made a bad call, and we'll figure it out eventually and come around to your way of thinking.  

 

In that case, the best thing you can do is lay out your opinons and advise in a clear, concise (!!) way and let us aborb it, chew on it, and incorporate it.**  

 

As I said in my post: we can't make everyone happy.  On the plus side, we don't have to make everyone happy to make a great game.  so we're going to spend our time worrying about the latter.

 

Regards,

 

Todd

ACE

 

 

** FWIW, the opposite of this is true as well: if you want your opinion to be ignored, the best thing you can do is use a tone that is accusatory, sarcastic and disrespectful.  There is only so much time in the day. If someone can't respect me and my team, why should I waste even a moment worrying about their opinion?

PrinceFielderBatFlip1.gif

 

REQT

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..you can add option to enable FPS controls, in fact you may already have that option, im not part of the beta, just a simple suggestion.  And well, even we can force FPS camera with 3rd party program , I guess you just said that one as an example

 

You can do this in the game right now, actually!  You can use the mouse wheel to zoom your camera into your avatar's head and approximates an FPS view.  

 

As soon as you can get into the game, try it.  Play a match and let me know what you think.

 

spoiler alert: it's not remotely playable.  to make it playable, we would have to fix a ton of stuff.  and "fix a ton of stuff" = time.  and time = cost.

 

this bears repeating:

 

if something seems "like common sense" to you, and yet we're not addressing it, you might want to pause and consider why that might be.  It could be that you're dramatically over-simplifying the cost (and splash damage) it would incur.  It could be that you're assuming something as 'obvious fact' that is actually just your opinion.   

 

Todd

ACE

J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

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