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Founders' Update: Defining "pre-alpha" - Official discussion thread

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People are having fun together.

 

 

Now take the combat. Turn it into a two hour siege of a castle.

 

 

Are you still having fun?

 

 

Now take that slow combat animations and try to successfully gank a caravan. Me and my brother have a lot of high hopes for this game. But we find it worrisome that people are content with this. I can't even grasp it. And he has no patience for turn based games and he's rather inelegantly exclaimed how frustrating that they're so slow that it's almost turn based.

Who's content? Pretty sure everyone who has played the game at least knows there are issues that need to be resolved. Saying you do enjoy the combat at its core isn't the same as saying there's nothing wrong or that you're content.

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yes, sorry.  client.

 

Todd

ACE

Would you be willing to make overhauls in current systems after game is released and made alot of money, which could give you ability to remake some systems in much better way than what you currently can? Im just interested in your opinion in such situations, over the years we have seen this happen, sometimes it actually ended up badly (runescape) but sometimes it was a big success (warframe)

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Others (like like the fact that you can't steer while using these powers) are known issues on the 'list of stuff we haven't gotten to yet'. and some (like animation speed) we will experiment with, in due time -- after we have the new server-side movement system in place. Doing experiments like that now would be fruitless, when you have a major re-architecture coming down the pipe.  

 

This is what I assumed. I have a feeling that the client side movement changes are going to really make the game feel and play much differently. Also it gives me some peace of mind to know that you guys are planning on experimenting with different animation speeds.

 

TLDR: yay! 

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I don't think that's an accurate statement. I see a lot of people having fun in-game. It may just be that those who are dissatisfied are the most vocal. 

 

Sure I am having fun as well in game, a lot of fun with you guys.

The combat works, its doing its job, what its intended for.

But I wouldnt say that the combat, at this state, is enjoyable and fun for me, or as good as in Guildwars 2 or another MMO where I enjoyed solely the combat.

And I dont see this changing too much, if the "unnecessary" animation locks stay.

Guildwars 2 got animation locks as well, but in a good way, when they are necessary and/or meaningful.

Edited by Urahara

After EverQuest Next is gone, its Star Citizen for me.

 

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Sure I am having fun as well in game, a lot of fun with you guys.

The combat works, its doing its job, what its intended for.

But I wouldnt say that the combat, at this state, is enjoyable and fun for me, or as good as in Guildwars 2 or another MMO where I enjoyed solely the combat.

And I dont see this changing too much, if the "unnecessary" animation locks stay.

Guildwars 2 got animation locks as well, but in a good way, when they are necessary and/or meaningful.

that's much better. Your other post was nothing but ; WE don't like this & you're not making US happy. Saying I & me is more suitable


94d3694d-21cd-461f-afe1-69b22f882477.jpg

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/rant

I'm getting sort of annoyed.  Its the same thing game-in, game-out.  And its getting pretty old.  It really does feel like everyone is just making the same game over and over and over. We see the exact same bugs every time.   Bugs that shouldn't even exist because the design they are based on is ancient and tired.  Why can I get 'stuck' in combat.  Why does the concept of 'combat' mode even exist?  It does nothing but introduce bugs.   How did the 'bolster' buff even get into this game at all? This sort of handicap has been tried in so many games, and it has never worked; and yet here it is in a pre-alpha that is supposed to be testing combat.  How can that work when some people have a superman buff?  And in what way does this fit into the final vision of Crowfall?  Why was time spent to put this in???  Why do mobs have leash bugs; why do they have leashes at all?   This is not innovative, this is Everquest 1.0.

And also worried.  If you go back and look at the boneyards of MMOs, there are several common problems that doom them to fail.  One silly one that has taken down some pretty big names in gaming is the issue of network latency and client side interpolation.  There is a huge difference between a lan fps and an MMO.  Those M's mean "Massively Multiplayer", and in order to get those M's, certain clever schemes have to be used to emulate real time synchronization.  When Crowfall promised physics I was amazed, that sounds really hard to do in an MMO, these guys must have some crazy cool technology.  But I'm not seeing it.  I'm seeing a lan style network that can barely handle 30 people at once.  I am worried, we are dangerously close to that boneyard.

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I just didnt understand what, from a gameplay standpoint, would be the reasons that value/advocate animation locks in a dynamic action combat system.

Like I said, Guildwars 2 got animation locks as well, but in a good way, when they are necessary and/or meaningful.

I am not totally against them, they can make much sense and be useful, in the right dosis.


After EverQuest Next is gone, its Star Citizen for me.

 

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I actually like the feel of combat a lot! Lag can make it difficult but that is to be expected, I think. Maybe animation locks could be shorter, but again it's hard to comment when there is lag.

This is the type of feedback that causes problems.  When you say you really like the feel of combat a lot, but then say animation locks could be shorter.  It needs to be one or the other.  Saying you like something a lot, but then asking for a change is not very finite.

 

@Urahara, I think you've misunderstood my point.  

 

We aren't "unwilling to change things because other people might not like the change." The point of that statement is: we aren't going to treat the feedback of any one player, or group of players, as sacrosanct.  This is not design-by-committee, we aren't going to make our decisions based on what seems most popular on the forums.  

 

We are going to take the feedback, internalize it, rationalize it against all the stuff that you guys don't know (cost and resources availablility and technical considerations) and use it to make the best decisions that we can.  

 

I think we've been pretty clear that our #1 priority right now continues to be movement and combat responsiveness.

 

Some elements of combat (like the decision to animation lock some powers) we feel strongly about.  Others (like like the fact that you can't steer while using these powers) are known issues on the 'list of stuff we haven't gotten to yet'. and some (like animation speed) we will experiment with, in due time -- after we have the new server-side movement system in place. Doing experiments like that now would be fruitless, when you have a major re-architecture coming down the pipe.  

 

Todd

ACE

I think the problem folks are having, and it's of it's own doing with the openness of development so far, is that folks see problems, you guys might recognize them and talk about them internally and feel it needs some work, but we do not know that since these are internal discussions.  You've said quite a bit that getting combat right is the huge focus right now.  No one here thinks that what we've seen with combat is final.  The problem I believe folks are having is that we don't know the vision without it being presented to us.  I don't believe anyone here who backed the game would have a problem with a statement like, "We recognize X is not ideal, but given the cost, it's simply not something we can address right now."

 

I don't think that's an accurate statement. I see a lot of people having fun in-game. It may just be that those who are dissatisfied are the most vocal. 

I think the satisfied should be more vocal then.  The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

 

Me and my brother have a lot of high hopes for this game. But we find it worrisome that people are content with this. I can't even grasp it. And he has no patience for turn based games and he's rather inelegantly exclaimed how frustrating that they're so slow that it's almost turn based.

Does he smoke cigars, and have a pretty cool skull ring?

 

/rant

I'm getting sort of annoyed.  Its the same thing game-in, game-out.  And its getting pretty old.  It really does feel like everyone is just making the same game over and over and over. We see the exact same bugs every time.   Bugs that shouldn't even exist because the design they are based on is ancient and tired.  Why can I get 'stuck' in combat.  Why does the concept of 'combat' mode even exist?  It does nothing but introduce bugs.   How did the 'bolster' buff even get into this game at all? This sort of handicap has been tried in so many games, and it has never worked; and yet here it is in a pre-alpha that is supposed to be testing combat.  How can that work when some people have a superman buff?  And in what way does this fit into the final vision of Crowfall?  Why was time spent to put this in???  Why do mobs have leash bugs; why do they have leashes at all?   This is not innovative, this is Everquest 1.0.

And also worried.  If you go back and look at the boneyards of MMOs, there are several common problems that doom them to fail.  One silly one that has taken down some pretty big names in gaming is the issue of network latency and client side interpolation.  There is a huge difference between a lan fps and an MMO.  Those M's mean "Massively Multiplayer", and in order to get those M's, certain clever schemes have to be used to emulate real time synchronization.  When Crowfall promised physics I was amazed, that sounds really hard to do in an MMO, these guys must have some crazy cool technology.  But I'm not seeing it.  I'm seeing a lan style network that can barely handle 30 people at once.  I am worried, we are dangerously close to that boneyard.

The basics have to be worked out first.  The reason you are seeing the same bugs are because these same basics are implemented in every MMO.  The difference however is the technology it's being implemented on and the environment.  They aren't building Crowfall on Everquest technology.


[@--(o.O)@]

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This is what I assumed. I have a feeling that the client side movement changes are going to really make the game feel and play much differently. Also it gives me some peace of mind to know that you guys are planning on experimenting with different animation speeds.

 

TLDR: yay! 

 

This part is really simple though and I hope they understand that.

 

The animations need to be significantly faster or ACE is better up cutting the losses.


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Who's content? Pretty sure everyone who has played the game at least knows there are issues that need to be resolved. Saying you do enjoy the combat at its core isn't the same as saying there's nothing wrong or that you're content.

 

 

...... there is a thread with a poll about this and ten people said they're perfectly content with the content. Did you not see it?

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every1 wants to be in the inner circle. Maybe the whole no NDA thing wasn't that great of an idea. It would've saved you guys quite sometime & effort in over explaining & repeating yourselves & all you had to say to any1 u let in & didn't know how to constructively criticise washttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QGkOGZubQ  

I fear if some people keep this up, all that's gonna be left for the rest of us to say ishttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5RtlpXsl8k&index=12&list=PL9FCE1417B39CC42C


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...... there is a thread with a poll about this and ten people said they're perfectly content with the content. Did you not see it?

Context though.

 

Are they answering that they are content with it as pre alpha or do they feel its in the perfect spot and nothing should be changed.

 

That's a pretty vague response really without knowing how the person was answering the poll, two totally different mindsets with the same answer.


 

Rage Quit

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I`ve not created a poll about it yet, but ACE try to avoid stuns and animation locks and other long durations that affect and slow down combat - 4 seconds stuns is in my opinion instant death in larger scale battles. I also feel some power animations on the confessor like (2 & 3) are way too slow before the desirable effect is triggered. What most of us enjoy is great control over our character like movement as Facerip mentioned above here, and fluid combat is important.

So animations in general need to be faster before we release the desirable effects from Archetypes powers!

 

No one will stand still in combat, @Todd - unless they are afk.

Edited by mythx

MQfHl7c.png

Crowfall Game Client: https://www.crowfall.com/en/client/

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And this is why I won't alpha test.

 

I want to play the finished product without doing the work required for testing. I don't want to be patient and accommodating, dammit I just want to play a good mmo for a change, and Todd I hope you build one for us.

 

I backed ya to build your game, not to finish building and polishing some else's 2 unfinished games.

 

Now in clear and concise words here is your major problem with this game right now.

 

Crowfall should have been developed and released at least 2 years ago, and Todd buddy, I blame you  :)

 

  

 

 

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And this is why I won't alpha test.

 

I want to play the finished product without doing the work required for testing.

Thankfully everyone does not have this mentality.

 

Consider software that launched a decade ago, and how bug ridden the releases were.  Now consider why...  Such a product would not fly in today's market.


[@--(o.O)@]

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