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Gradishar

Friendly Fire...let's talk about this for a minute...

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I'd rather have smaller 5 man groups in regards to FF immunity. Maybe you could make a raid group with sub groups but only each individual group of 5 had it's own FF immunity.

 

That would keep small groups of 2-3 still plenty viable. I feel like the more you increase the FF immunity group size the more power zergs would have.

That's kind of what I was thinking. Some powers should probably be no immunity though. (Nothing we have now, really, except maybe fessor flame thrower.) Edited by yamix

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SB had very very very limited FF, basically negligible imo

 

pretty much everything was grp friendly, only a select few powers affected everyone, including the caster, like the mentioned sentinel bomb or Fury AoEs

there was no accidental buffing, enemy healing or even melee FF whatsoever

 

Even UO's FF system was harsher than SB's

Eh. Kind of.

 

For the vast majority of SB live Channie AoEs were one of the most popular, and even the default siege spec for a while. These were not FF as these guys are contemplating. Just didn't hit the caster. Hit the group.

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Eh. Kind of.

 

For the vast majority of SB live Channie AoEs were one of the most popular, and even the default siege spec for a while. These were not FF as these guys are contemplating. Just didn't hit the caster. Hit the group.

 

ya, but it was such a non-issue, because of stack fights.

and it's not like the single target channy nukes were weak or anything.

 

sorry, but using SB as a FF-game example just doesn't work imo.

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I'm not trying to be overly negative but tbh, that sounds awful. custard me.

 

It's better than swinging your sword right next to someone but still not hitting them due to latency. Even tab target games like WoW have massive melee ranges to account for latency.

Edited by Zybak

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If someone says none of the devs worked on a game with FF, saying Shadowbane had it does "work" to discredit that claim.

 

It also discredits the claim that the only large scale MMOs that had it were FPS.

 

If you are aware of a largescale action combat game that has full FF enabled that isn't FPS then please do share.

 

SB barely counts since it was tab target, only a few skills had FF and hardly anyone thinks the actual combat mechanics were good. The lead combat designer here never worked on that game - his main action combat game was DCUO , which is extremely similar to the presnt system in CF.

Edited by jacobin

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Putting in rules like no FF on group members just seems really wierd. You AOE 2 people in front of you, but one defies the laws of physics and avoids damage simply because he has /join protection? All it will do is make group management a nightmare. Either everyone is vulnerable or nobody is.

 

Weird? Why weird? You want some kind of "real world" "laws of physics"? A Champion can turn himself to stone because of some inexplainable magical properties...but if he's going to disarm those in front of him...he must do so to both friends and foes alike...because otherwise...it would be "weird."  Lets not let the mechanics of effective and fun gameplay be dictated by "laws of physics" ok?

 

Group management a nightmare? Since when? Every MMO ive ever played has a group management layer which was neither difficult nore cumberson. Quite the contrary actually...group level buffs, wards, debuff removals, etc. are a staple in MMOs. Getting rid of that to make the gameplay feel less "weird" or more akin to "real world physics" ...while an interesting experiment or potential similation...doesn't sound like an exciting gameplay environment (for all the reasons listed in my OP).

 

"Either everyone is vulnerable or no one is." Why? Since when? What makes this more fun? Why is having your healer unable to power up his rage because he can't be next to his team mates a more fun experience? Why is encouraging your toons to separate and battle in 1v1s a better scenario? You now have created a system which encourages snipers...lone wolves who can target at range and work without team mates. I don't find that a compelling foundation for an MMO which promises large scale sieges and epic battle engaugements....but hey...maybe that's just me.

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It's better than swinging your sword right next to someone but still not hitting them due to latency. Even tab target games like WoW have massive melee ranges to account for latency.

 

LMB axe-swinging on a Lego is very different from ranged casting like Confessor. I'm not excited about combat featuring casters whose only real DPS is AOE's because the hitbox on their "single target" abilities and players is so large that it all gets either body-blocked (no FF) or you custard your teammates (with FF).

 

Melee range in a tab-target game with no FF can't really be compared to sloppy hitboxes in a game that wants FPS, action-oriented combat with FF.

Edited by Drenath

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If you are aware of a largescale action combat game that has full FF enabled that isn't FPS then please do share.

 

SB barely counts since it was tab target, only a few skills had FF and hardly anyone thinks the actual combat mechanics were good. The lead combat designer here never worked on that game - his main action combat game was DCUO , which is extremely similar to the presnt system in CF.

 

Hardly anyone thinks the actual combat mechanics were good? Seriously? We played that damn game for years because the combat sucked? Wow! There were a lot of issues with SB (things I won't bore you with here)...but crappy combat mechancs weren't one of them. The combat mechancs were GREAT! We had random pvp (rune drops), organized small scale pvp (mine fights) and large scale pvp (banes/sieges). Group composition, class/race balance (and diversity), buffs, debuffs, healing, AoEs...the combat system rocked quite honestly. It wasn't perfect (what is?) but the failings of SB had little to do with its combat mechanics.

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Weird? Why weird? You want some kind of "real world" "laws of physics"? A Champion can turn himself to stone because of some inexplainable magical properties...but if he's going to disarm those in front of him...he must do so to both friends and foes alike...because otherwise...it would be "weird."  Lets not let the mechanics of effective and fun gameplay be dictated by "laws of physics" ok?

 

Group management a nightmare? Since when? Every MMO ive ever played has a group management layer which was neither difficult nore cumberson. Quite the contrary actually...group level buffs, wards, debuff removals, etc. are a staple in MMOs. Getting rid of that to make the gameplay feel less "weird" or more akin to "real world physics" ...while an interesting experiment or potential similation...doesn't sound like an exciting gameplay environment (for all the reasons listed in my OP).

 

"Either everyone is vulnerable or no one is." Why? Since when? What makes this more fun? Why is having your healer unable to power up his rage because he can't be next to his team mates a more fun experience? Why is encouraging your toons to separate and battle in 1v1s a better scenario? You now have created a system which encourages snipers...lone wolves who can target at range and work without team mates. I don't find that a compelling foundation for an MMO which promises large scale sieges and epic battle engaugements....but hey...maybe that's just me.

 

It has nothing to do with realism, its just silly design when a mechanic like FF can be avoided due to arbitrary rules like being in a party.

 

The optimal way to play would be to just constantly invite everyone around you so can free fire with the best DPS combos and never kill friendlies. I can be in the middle of casting a massive AOE and just /invite the guy in front of me to avoid FF? C'mon man, its just silly. In fact its actually punishing people who play in set groups or solo since they can't just constantly /kick or /invite as they see fit so they have to hold back or just kill friendlies and weaken their own side.

 

Hence why everyone is vulnerable or nobody is. Its the only way to make sure everyone is subjected to the same rules and limitations regardless of playstyle.

 

Its also unconfirmed what the group size will be. I doubt 5-man groups will be the final size in a largecale open world pvp game. If a platoon of 30 people or more can be in a group and avoid FF -  it becomes completely pointless anyways.

Edited by jacobin

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I actually really like the idea of FF immunity within a (small) group.  Having some abilities that break that general rule would be fine, but the sheer simplicity of the basic idea is nice, while still solving many of the problems pointed out with just dropping FF into the game as is.

 

Of course, ACE is probably going to do whatever they are going to do and we all will learn to play with it.

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It has nothing to do with realism, its just silly design when a mechanic like FF can be avoided due to arbitrary rules like being in a party.

 

The optimal way to play would be to just constantly invite everyone around you so can free fire with the best DPS combos and never kill friendlies. I can be in the middle of casting a massive AOE and just /invite the guy in front of me to avoid FF? C'mon man, its just silly. In fact its actually punishing people who play in set groups or solo since they can't just constantly /kick or /invite as they see fit so they have to hold back or just kill friendlies and weaken their own side.

 

Hence why everyone is vulnerable or nobody is. Its the only way to make sure everyone is subjected to the same rules and limitations regardless of playstyle.

 

Its also unconfirmed what the group size will be. I doubt 5-man groups will be the final size in a largecale open world pvp game. If a platoon of 30 people or more can be in a group and avoid FF -  it becomes completely pointless anyways.

 

Ok...so realism isn't what makes FF immunity for groups "weird" ...instead its because its "silly" for my Legionnaire's group run buff/snare removal to only effect those inside my group (i.e. those I deem worthy and I'm trying to help) instead of everyone in my immediate vicinity? I think you've lost me man. Your "anything you do that isn't self only should effect everyone" strategy sounds about as "silly" as I've ever heard. Who you invite to your group is neither "arbitrary" nor "silly." Groups form the basic cell for combat. Archetypes have strengths and weaknesses which are enhanced (or mitigated) by being in a group. Group dynamics are ABSOLUTELY the most important foundation for good combat, good class balance and good gameplay. Whether the group is capped at 5, 8 or 10...having the right mix of DPS, survivability, utility, etc. is ESSENTIAL for effectiveness and good gameplay. 

 

As to this wild notion that groups will just add or subtract folks in front of them...wow...just wow. You've played an open world sand box MMO have you? Do you have any idea how idiotic this notion sounds? I honestly have no idea where to begin.  This not some arena battle royal. This is a 3 month campaign...with open field pvp, small scale pvp (resource points) and large scale pvp (sieges). You want no groups at all? And whenever I hit my Lego HoT, I end up healing the target I was just bashing on? Seriously?  

 

Ok...I think I need a drink now...

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