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Gradishar

Friendly Fire...let's talk about this for a minute...

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You know, while reading this thread, what would you guys think of the opposite to Friendly Fire? I'm calling it Enemy Enhancement because can't think of another e or f word that means the same thing. Anyway, it basically would allow you to buff your enemies. Since FF allows you to hinder your allies, why not mechanics to assist your foes? Not that I'd really want to see it, mind you, just a thought that popped into my head.

That's the way it worked in DF, abilities shouldn't discriminate and you should think a little bit before you act. Easy to forget how much DF did just right that made us stick with that game for so long despite getting spat in the face continuously by incompetent devs.


Member of The BlackHand Order

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I certainly saw plenty of people die to Friendly Fire in SB.

 

I even saw people accidentally buff, heal, and even melee the wrong person. Not often, but it happened.

 

Once got rebuffed by an enemy on accident after being gravechilled. Much lol


You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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I actually really like the idea of FF immunity within a (small) group.  Having some abilities that break that general rule would be fine, but the sheer simplicity of the basic idea is nice, while still solving many of the problems pointed out with just dropping FF into the game as is.

 

Of course, ACE is probably going to do whatever they are going to do and we all will learn to play with it.

This is really the take home to me. It encourages grouping, but punishes a guild which brings multiple and certainly many groups to an encounter. All the devs need to do is make a decision as to the optimal group size considering the technology, latency and just plain fun. Then friendly fire for the group encourages group play and limiting friendly fire to only the group discourages outright zerg play. I don't see any downside to that idea.

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That's the way it worked in DF, abilities shouldn't discriminate and you should think a little bit before you act. Easy to forget how much DF did just right that made us stick with that game for so long despite getting spat in the face continuously by incompetent devs.

This will sound odd to those of you that didn't play SB, but Darkfall combat, from a group prospective, sucked balls compared to SB combat. Ask anybody.

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I would wholeheartedly agree with those benefits if aiming was precise with narrow projectile hitboxes. It's not, though, and dev comments would seem to suggest they like the size of aoe cones, projectile hitboxes, etc... just the way they are.

 

 

I could take everything I said and apply it strictly to melee arc swings with full FF and it would all still stand. You don't need dart-gun attacks for FF to work. Go watch some darkfall vids.

 

I don't care about the rest of your post.

This will sound odd to those of you that didn't play SB, but Darkfall combat, from a group prospective, sucked balls compared to SB combat. Ask anybody.

 

You sound like you were trash, your clan was trash, or all of the above. 


aka honeybear

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I could take everything I said and apply it strictly to melee arc swings with full FF and it would all still stand. You don't need dart-gun attacks for FF to work. Go watch some darkfall vids.

 

Could you point me in the direction of an all melee DF character playing with a decent sized group that didn't turn into 1v1 with everyone running around without animation locks?

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Could you point me in the direction of an all melee DF character playing with a decent sized group that didn't turn into 1v1 with everyone running around without animation locks?

Yes I can. Let me get through my ochem lab and get home to my desktop first. 


aka honeybear

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Yes I can. Let me get through my ochem lab and get home to my desktop first. 

 

Thanks. I briefly played DF years ago but didn't really do it for me. I see people compare DF, SB, CF combat and I can't really see any similarities where a mechanic from one would translate well to another. Tons of experience with FPS with FF, not so much with fantasy mmo so guess it's hard for me to see it working perfectly as is. The idea that we'll just figure it out is a possibility, but 6 months from now, would be unfortunate to see a decently developed combat system thrown out of whack because FF is turned on and wasn't planned out from the get go.

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There are better examples of what happens when you try to melee with team mates in a group fight with FF on, but I settled for this one I found quickly:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8nOYbS4_4o&index=2&list=PL7C2251D998B55426

 

The music is almost as cringe-worthy as the skill of this player but the first ~20 seconds get the point across: you CANNOT group melee-focus one person with FF on. People in real life didn't do this for a reason - you kill your friends. People in video games don't do it for the same reason. 
 
You'll notice he hits his party members (little "P" spinning above their head) as much as he hits the enemy. He can partially be forgiven because almost no one knew how to group fight that early on in the game, myself included. We learned quickly that you'll kill your team faster than you'll kill the enemy. Same rule will apply in CF.
 
The first point being:
 
It should not be the responsibility of the game to stop players from making bad decisions like meleeing your friends
 
Here is a counter example video:
 
 
In this fight, the player recording makes heavy use of melee while in a 3v4 and yes, it does mostly become him 1v1ing an enemy team if that's all you pay attention to. Those with more trained eyes will see what he's doing that's more important: he's peeling for his team mates, cross healing, staying near his group, applying melee pressure but not over extending. 
 
You might not have ever guessed FF was in this game if you only saw this video because this player never tries to engage an enemy already being melee'ed by his friend.
 
The second point being:
 
Teamwork can mean things besides "everyone focus fire one guy"
Edited by vucar

aka honeybear

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It should not be the responsibility of the game to stop players from making bad decisions like meleeing your friends
 
Teamwork can mean things besides "everyone focus fire one guy"

 

Thanks. Guess that's about what I remember and what I can find in other videos as well. Isn't surprising that the majority of the ones I've watched are range or at least melee/range mix.

 

Unfortunately, CF's current speed of combat, animation locks, along with abilities expecting friendlies to be close, I don't believe it would work out as well as DF. 

 

You are right that players need to basically L2P, but I can only assume that many do not want to do the whole 1v1 in/out combat style and would prefer to focus fire in some capacity (although I wouldn't mind something like Albion's anti zerg mechanics).

 

As is, not terribly hard to run away from melee even with CC as every swing/attack stalls their chase. If friendlies had to stagger attacks on top of that, could be a larger issue. Can't easily attack in place, move out of combat so someone else can jump, move back in, etc with a moving target. Obviously timing CC and what not with others would be smart.

 

SB and other games have had FF as well, but tab targeting which helps quite a lot in those systems and if someone drops an AOE on a friendly, they are just playing poorly.

 

Haven't been able to test too much, but playing a Confessor with Champ/Horsey teammates, I've tried to eyeball what it would be like with FF on and trying to find an opening with their pills isn't the easiest thing on a stationary target, not to mention moving.

 

Oh well, is what it is and we'll have to see what ACE has planned. I rarely play melee so guess I'll just need to worry about my target practice.

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I had written a small novel in response to this thread but unfortunately fat fingering the refresh key lost all of it.

 

Suffice to say anyone who thinks Friendly Fire doesn't belong in the game can be safely ignored and that the discussion should be about how we implement FF. I'll try to write up my several thousand word thoughts in a TL;DR

 

Full Friendly Fire

Everyone Hurts Everyone

 

Party/Raid/Guild/Alliance/Religion[Godwar] Immunity

Everyone Hurts Everyone except people in their Party/Raid/Guild/Alliance/Religion and below [Pick one and the ones before it are included]

Example: If you chose Party, only Party members would be immune to each other's damage but raid members would take full. If you chose Raid for example Raid and Party members would be immune to each other's damage.

 

Party/Raid/Guild/Alliance/Religion[Godwar] Resistance.

Everyone Hurts Everyone except people in their Party/Raid/Guild/Alliance/Religion take a reduced x% amount of damage.

Example: If you chose Raid and below, Party members and Raid members would take 50% less damage from you.

 

Scaling Party/Raid/Guild/Alliance/Religion Resistance.

Everyone Hurts Everyone except people in their Party/Raid/Guild/Alliance/Religion take a reduced a%/b%/c%/d%/e% amount of damage respectively.

Example:

In a Religion game, the damage resisance breakdown could be Party:75% Raid:60% Guild: 45% Alliance:30% Religion: 15%.

 

Ability Based Friendly Fire discrimination

Whether or not Everyone Hurts Everyone is decided by each individual ability. For example Fireballs raining from the sky might hurt everyone, but a pushback spell might ignore allies etc.

 

I had written up detailed descriptions for each of the systems I can think of, but I'll just say that I personally Think that some combination of Scaling Party/Raid/Guild/Alliance/Religion Resistance and Ability Base Friendly Fire Discrimination should be used, as it is the most nuanced and interesting solution that allows a huge skill ceiling as well as very fine tuned design and balance tweaks whilst allowing newer players avoid the raised skill floor by avoiding abilities that are specifically labeled as dangerous to their allies which gives them control over how exposed they are to risk[not hurting friends] while lowering their reward[non or weak FF abilities would do less damage[.

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Scaling Party/Raid/Guild/Alliance/Religion Resistance.

Everyone Hurts Everyone except people in their Party/Raid/Guild/Alliance/Religion take a reduced a%/b%/c%/d%/e% amount of damage respectively.

Example:

In a Religion game, the damage resisance breakdown could be Party:75% Raid:60% Guild: 45% Alliance:30% Religion: 15%.

 

Ability Based Friendly Fire discrimination

Whether or not Everyone Hurts Everyone is decided by each individual ability. For example Fireballs raining from the sky might hurt everyone, but a pushback spell might ignore allies etc.

 

I had written up detailed descriptions for each of the systems I can think of, but I'll just say that I personally Think that some combination of Scaling Party/Raid/Guild/Alliance/Religion Resistance and Ability Base Friendly Fire Discrimination should be used, as it is the most nuanced and interesting solution that allows a huge skill ceiling as well as very fine tuned design and balance tweaks whilst allowing newer players avoid the raised skill floor by avoiding abilities that are specifically labeled as dangerous to their allies which gives them control over how exposed they are to risk[not hurting friends] while lowering their reward[non or weak FF abilities would do less damage[.

 

I second this.  Abilities in their own right should determine whether they are friendly-fire capable, and then the rulesets of each campaign world should further determine what percentage of the friendly fire is distributed, and how.  This will mean there may be campaign worlds where friendly fire is relatively off limits, and where it's exceptionally useful (subject to change as per other campaign rules, of course).

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Is this an issue that is being internally debated? or has there been a resolution of how they want to implement FF? I'd like to know JTodd and Gordon's vision on this...

 

i believe the ultimate vision was....'it will depend'.

 

different rulesets might/could have different ff rules.

 

i'm for just turning it on in the hunger dome. would be hilarity.

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Ladies and Gentlemen I figure it out now, they want to let carebears to stay for a bit more to invite their friends for more pledge and then turn FF on as they leave Crowfall slowly because of their pixels being hurt by their friends and enemies, sounds like an evil plan but i like it!

 

That's it, i solved another problem.

 

Cheers  :ph34r:


SkDJEH9.png Discord: message me if you want to stay in touch. Retired CrowFall member.

 

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Ladies and Gentlemen I figure it out now, they want to let carebears to stay for a bit more to invite their friends for more pledge and then turn FF on as they leave Crowfall slowly because of their pixels being hurt by their friends and enemies, sounds like an evil plan but i like it!

 

That's it, i solved another problem.

 

Cheers  :ph34r:

 

Thank you Mox, I feel better already.

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