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Helix

What's your biggest fear(s) for the game?

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I actually think time to kill, and the of lack a  archetype wide generic CC break (which most games are using now) will be a pretty big issue also. Right now, if you get locked in to a CC chain, you die. Plain and simple. Two champs, or 1 champ and a knight can do this.

 

Here's a good example of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxLbU9AOHZM&feature=youtu.be

 

This is also partly due to lack of healing in the game. A small burst heal on a 20s cool down isn't enough to keep someone alive in the thick of battle. There is a lot of way healing can work in the game. Less burst heals, and highly spam-able heal over times that don't stack from the same archetype (so basically if you had one leggo and druid, the hot would stack, two druids or two leggos, no stack).

 

Basically if you want longer interesting fights, there needs to be more sustain.

Edited by helix

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That Serrated and PAX will  stop playing with their guild tags on (PAX already is)-- thus removing video content of their ineptitude at structured PvP on the even scale.  This would inevitably lead to the stagnation of my thread causing it to fall out of the front page.

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[@--(o.O)@]

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I actually think time to kill, and the of lack a  archetype wide generic CC break (which most games are using now) will be a pretty big issue also. Right now, if you get locked in to a CC chain, you die. Plain and simple. Two champs, or 1 champ and a knight can do this.

 

Here's a good example of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxLbU9AOHZM&feature=youtu.be

 

This is also partly due to lack of healing in the game. A small burst heal on a 20s cool down isn't enough to keep someone alive in the thick of battle. There is a lot of way healing can work in the game. Less burst heals, and highly spam-able heal over times that don't stack from the same archetype (so basically if you had one leggo and druid, the hot would stack, two druids or two leggos, no stack).

 

Basically if you want longer interesting fights, there needs to be more sustain.

 

I figure this is relevant.

 

TLDR: CC counters need to be generic and varied so that the devs can put in heaps in interesting attacks without there being too many OP combos.


David Sirlin's Balancing Multiplayer Games should be mandatory reading for all gamers.

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I actually think time to kill, and the of lack a  archetype wide generic CC break (which most games are using now) will be a pretty big issue also. Right now, if you get locked in to a CC chain, you die. Plain and simple. Two champs, or 1 champ and a knight can do this.

 

Here's a good example of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxLbU9AOHZM&feature=youtu.be

 

This is also partly due to lack of healing in the game. A small burst heal on a 20s cool down isn't enough to keep someone alive in the thick of battle. There is a lot of way healing can work in the game. Less burst heals, and highly spam-able heal over times that don't stack from the same archetype (so basically if you had one leggo and druid, the hot would stack, two druids or two leggos, no stack).

 

Basically if you want longer interesting fights, there needs to be more sustain.

I don't disagree, but we are given what we are given.

 

Your gifs will keep it all going; worry not.

 

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He's trying so hard I can almost feel the sweat on his forehead.

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I figure this is relevant.

 

TLDR: CC counters need to be generic and varied so that the devs can put in heaps in interesting attacks without there being too many OP combos.

 

I agree, universal defense is one thing crowfall will definitely need. Not just for handling CC, but for mitigating attacks to some extent.

Edited by helix

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Biggest fear is that while the design concepts may work that due to technical issues the game won't be able to fulfill its potential and just fall aside as another mediocre game that tried to do something.

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My biggest fear is ppl making excuses to quit because they suck. I already see some ppl swearing off the game, undoubtedly because they were stomped in a test. We quickly need to input crafting into the tests so that all the scrubs can spend less time getting sent to lobby and more time creating powerful pixels.

 

Short term fear is Zerg balance. The game should be set up to provide tools for the outnumbered. Competent vs competent numbers are having a significant impact on early testing.


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My biggest fear is ppl making excuses to quit because they suck. I already see some ppl swearing off the game, undoubtedly because they were stomped in a test. We quickly need to input crafting into the tests so that all the scrubs can spend less time getting sent to lobby and more time creating powerful pixels.

 

Short term fear is Zerg balance. The game should be set up to provide tools for the outnumbered. Competent vs competent numbers are having a significant impact on early testing.

That's the nature of pvp games though, there are always those who think they are grizzled pvpers who will jump on board, but when they realize they aren't top tier they can't cope and then they quit.  Then there are others who realize they aren't top tier, and try to get better...

 

I think with the design decisions regarding multiple bands, different rulesets, ek etc... ACE has a system that will bring in enough sheep for the wolves, and heck may even turn some sheep into wolves over time. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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My biggest fear is ppl making excuses to quit because they suck. I already see some ppl swearing off the game, undoubtedly because they were stomped in a test. We quickly need to input crafting into the tests so that all the scrubs can spend less time getting sent to lobby and more time creating powerful pixels.

Short term fear is Zerg balance. The game should be set up to provide tools for the outnumbered. Competent vs competent numbers are having a significant impact on early testing.

This is the nature of the game. A competent Zerg > super competent small group, just cause numbers. Edited by helix

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Competent Zerg

Wise Fool

Go War to Make Peace

 

Its some kind of chinese proverb ?

 

COMPETENT ZERG in action combat - friendly fire - skillshot based game............U made my day.  .o/

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My BIGGEST fear is server/client instability.  If the game isn't even AVAILABLE, nothing inside the game matters.  Let's not relive SB.exe and similar stability issues.

 

In the same vein, server/client performance is right up there.  Think ESO PvP where everything just kind of... stops working.  Oh look you have 100 people all spamming abilities... and... now we push buttons... but nothing happens... great. 

 

Currently, both of these are fears based on past experience, not with anything I've seen so far in Crowfall.  My biggest fear relating to what we've seen thus far is the generic "Combat not being fun". 

 

Though... by fear, I mean, it just needs improved... and I fully expect it will be improved... so I'm not really scared.

 

You scurred bro!?


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Chapter Leader

 

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One of my big fears for this game is the composition of the audience that ACE chooses to surround itself with and therefore take feedback from. You can only hear a bunch of kids cry for [thing A] for so long before your mindset goes from "definitely not" to "maybe I can, what would it hurt and it would shut them up".

-people cried about the wild star combat style --- they changed it, you hate it, now their slowly walking it back that way.

-people cried about obsessive CC in the industry as a whole and begged ACE to go super light on CC --- now you can't even land a hit on a fleeing opponent and kids are crying for a universal CC kit

 

I'm sure there are plenty more examples of how this community has shot itself in the foot but I'm sick of writing this so you must be sick of reading it by now...


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One of my big fears for this game is the composition of the audience that ACE chooses to surround itself with and therefore take feedback from. You can only hear a bunch of kids cry for [thing A] for so long before your mindset goes from "definitely not" to "maybe I can, what would it hurt and it would shut them up".

-people cried about the wild star combat style --- they changed it, you hate it, now their slowly walking it back that way.

-people cried about obsessive CC in the industry as a whole and begged ACE to go super light on CC --- now you can't even land a hit on a fleeing opponent and kids are crying for a universal CC kit

 

I'm sure there are plenty more examples of how this community has shot itself in the foot but I'm sick of writing this so you must be sick of reading it by now...

Yep it's definitely good that they moved away from all the wildstar-like telegraphs.

 

Also not landing hits on a fleeing opponent (which is an exaggeration to say the least) is more related to the controller and animation locks and not really anything to do with CC.

 

We are in pre-alpha testing different spell behaviors, we are not in spell balancing stage, which means it would be premature to judge the impact that CC will have in this game. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Besides the usually poorly made socks I've been talking about, my REAL biggest fear is that the games performance will be complete ahole. This has been an issue plaguing many large scale pvp games, since the times of DAoC and shadowbane. AoC sieges were a disaster, Warhammer choked and crashed, GW2 has ridiculous server-side ability lag which renders you powerless, and a ton of culling. ESO had similar issues of GW2. Even DFO had issues, but far less (abilities didn't have crazy sfx like they did in those other games).

 

Crowfall is being built on Unity 5, which has yet to see a successful mmo utilize it (the only game I remember in recent history being built on it was pathfinder online, lol). The Unity team has been trying to straighting it out specifically for MMO development, but I keep hearing from many different sources (mostly from UEngine nerds), that it still doesn't really fit the bill.

 

So my biggest fear is that the Unity Engine will be the achilles heel. If sieges suffer due to performance, it will be a real bummer.

 

 

Unity5 has it's pitfalls, but they mostly are pitfalls in two departments.

 

1) It's variables and operators are not near perfect accuracy like in Unreal, GameByro, XNA and other optimized frameworks/game engines

 

Unity has an underlying framework issue when it comes to it's maths libraries for calculating long floating point value operators.  It's long floats return a guessed value as opposed to precision accurate values using scientific notation as the storage method for whole numbers or groups of numbers to retain precision without compromising memory size limitations when using floats with extremely long partial number values.  This issue was solved years ago by very talented programmers and mathematicians for libraries which are used by Microsoft, IBM and other big companies and were in turn adapted and modified by game programmers in the 90s and early 2000s into their game engines.   But, for the sake of owning their engine and SDK entirely, Unity developers opted to write their own, naturally even now it's still a work in progress.  These issues will seldom effect most games, but it's uncertain what kind of weird bugs may occur when there are 500 players in one location in a world map with that many raw calculations using matrix and vector transforms at once.  I do know this, Unity struggles to render realistic textures and particles on all but the most powerful systems, a 5 year old graphics chip chugs in the face of Unity's graphical requirements and CPUs are not much different.

 

Which is why I suspect the developers of Crowfall as well as many other developers who use Unity opt for a stylistic approach to their game, so that because the game is using simple textures, they can do a lot more and allow the game to run on lower end systems.  But this is just a theory ...  my programming experience with unity is limited, as in I've never had a chance to look at it's source code or framework.

 

The other issue is random number generation seeding precision, it's random number generator isn't as "random" as other engines.  Meaning that it's not entirely reliable for absolute random generation of numbers beyond that of ~10 240.  However, considering most RPGs that use RNG, use a random value of 100.00 for a gage of between 0 and 100% chance; So That isn't really an issue.  

 

2) The second issue is compatibility and optimization.  

Currently Unity5 isn't fully optimized or runs well with video game consoles, particularly the portable consoles as well as Android OS and iOS.  It doesn't run very well on the PS4 or Xbox One.  Meaning if a game developer's publisher, the CEO and lead team members, or company ownership opted to produce the game for consoles and or hand held, then Unity will be out of the question as Unreal is currently far better suited and optimized for consoles as well as hand held, smart phones and touch pads.  To get unity to run well on these platforms requires the developers to dedicate development time to writing additional framework code to get the engine to run well on those devices and most development teams neither have the time or resources, or technical expertise to accomplish this.  

 

 

It is often considered a waste of time to use Unity for these reasons, since the common attitude in the industry is thus.

"Don't re-invent the Wheel" - The Unity Developers ignored this.

 

Developers and in particular publisher and people who fund projects would rather spend the extra money to acquire existing technology solutions which provide a more stable, finished, optimized platform for development.  Since Crowfall is a PC only game and Unity is a cheaper SDK than Unreal for commercial licencing, not to mention has better support for the only real time particle effects solution on the market, which is Popcorn FX, I think that's why the Crowfall developers decided to use that platform, despite it's faults; Which only are an issue for console and portable device games.


My hubris is the size of a 2 by 4 nailed to the side of a YF-12 jet barrel rolling into a volcano piloted by a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

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Unity5 has it's pitfalls, but they mostly are pitfalls in two departments.

 

1) It's variables and operators are not near perfect accuracy like in Unreal, GameByro, XNA and other optimized frameworks/game engines

 

Unity has an underlying framework issue when it comes to it's maths libraries for calculating long floating point value operators.  It's long floats return a guessed value as opposed to precision accurate values using scientific notation as the storage method for whole numbers or groups of numbers to retain precision without compromising memory size limitations when using floats with extremely long partial number values.  This issue was solved years ago by very talented programmers and mathematicians for libraries which are used by Microsoft, IBM and other big companies and were in turn adapted and modified by game programmers in the 90s and early 2000s into their game engines.   But, for the sake of owning their engine and SDK entirely, Unity developers opted to write their own, naturally even now it's still a work in progress.  These issues will seldom effect most games, but it's uncertain what kind of weird bugs may occur when there are 500 players in one location in a world map with that many raw calculations using matrix and vector transforms at once.  I do know this, Unity struggles to render realistic textures and particles on all but the most powerful systems, a 5 year old graphics chip chugs in the face of Unity's graphical requirements and CPUs are not much different.

 

Which is why I suspect the developers of Crowfall as well as many other developers who use Unity opt for a stylistic approach to their game, so that because the game is using simple textures, they can do a lot more and allow the game to run on lower end systems.  But this is just a theory ...  my programming experience with unity is limited, as in I've never had a chance to look at it's source code or framework.

 

The other issue is random number generation seeding precision, it's random number generator isn't as "random" as other engines.  Meaning that it's not entirely reliable for absolute random generation of numbers beyond that of ~10 240.  However, considering most RPGs that use RNG, use a random value of 100.00 for a gage of between 0 and 100% chance; So That isn't really an issue.  

 

2) The second issue is compatibility and optimization.

Currently Unity5 isn't fully optimized or runs well with video game consoles, particularly the portable consoles as well as Android OS and iOS.  It doesn't run very well on the PS4 or Xbox One.  Meaning if a game developer's publisher, the CEO and lead team members, or company ownership opted to produce the game for consoles and or hand held, then Unity will be out of the question as Unreal is currently far better suited and optimized for consoles as well as hand held, smart phones and touch pads.  To get unity to run well on these platforms requires the developers to dedicate development time to writing additional framework code to get the engine to run well on those devices and most development teams neither have the time or resources, or technical expertise to accomplish this.  

 

 

It is often considered a waste of time to use Unity for these reasons, since the common attitude in the industry is thus.

"Don't re-invent the Wheel" - The Unity Developers ignored this.

 

Developers and in particular publisher and people who fund projects would rather spend the extra money to acquire existing technology solutions which provide a more stable, finished, optimized platform for development.  Since Crowfall is a PC only game and Unity is a cheaper SDK than Unreal for commercial licencing, not to mention has better support for the only real time particle effects solution on the market, which is Popcorn FX, I think that's why the Crowfall developers decided to use that platform, despite it's faults; Which only are an issue for console and portable device games.

 

So... you're saying... Class Balance?

 

I kid.. very nice write up!


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Chapter Leader

 

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Biggest fear, well I have two. 

 

 First one being the combat being super static, like it is now.  Chasing someone down looks stupid to be honest, as soon as you swing you stop and it basically misses them.  Hoping for more fluid combat.

 

Second one, performance issues.  I don't know much about the back end of MMO's, but I would think if the campaigns had their own server dedicated to them, that might help in terms of problems that could arise due to the Unity engine or optimization server side.  Client side, my only worry is that the game will fall flat on its face optimization wise and even tri-sli 980 TI's wont help when its 100 v 100.

I agree 100% on these 2, combat is super static and very slow pace. naturally class balance is always important. Tho i am interested in team support skills and CC breakers


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