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FAQ: Skills and skill trees - Official discussion thread

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I do not think that is correct. I think your character will retain its training.

 

I'm happy to be disabused of that notion. It might be a better system than permanent, unlimited training. Talk about a barrier to entry for new players ... sheesh.

  Yeah it's looking like your character will persist.. I guess we'll have to see how it all works in detail later.

 

That was part of the main appeal (though it's certain that the worlds themselves will not persist entirely, nor economy of areas such as Dreggs), was that you would have a completely new experience each campaign, even if choosing to role the same class.  Almost like how DnD campaigns work out - even though the rules and character designs can be the same template, you'd have a new story each time.

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I tend to agree with this sentiment. Sure, you can give lip service to differentiating character builds because there are archetypes and disciplines in the game. Based on what little we know, I don't consider this significant differentiation personally. Now imagine if you could only GM 7 or so skills, like in Ultima Online. Imagine the many many thousands of crazy combinations of character builds that we would see.

 

Some kind of cap imo.

 

This system effectively has a cap of (0+time)*(rate of point gain).  Yes, I know that given enough time you can be at 100% of everything.  So think of that 100% in everything as your baseline, from that point your grand master points are the things that let you increase a skill past 100%.  This comes from the progression FAQ where they say 100% equals an Olympic Fencer but we are eternal heroes and can go beyond that level.  In terms of power creep, what this gains you is the ability to switch between runes for more flexibility but a newbie can pick a focus and achieve that point over several months.

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Interesting stuff but not much to say yet, personally.

 

I agree with whomever said its way too early to get fired up over this. There are still too many unknowns and too many ways they could execute this. Like many other things being debated to death, lets just wait and see on this one.

 

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aka honeybear

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This system effectively has a cap of (0+time)*(rate of point gain).  Yes, I know that given enough time you can be at 100% of everything.  So think of that 100% in everything as your baseline, from that point your grand master points are the things that let you increase a skill past 100%.  This comes from the progression FAQ where they say 100% equals an Olympic Fencer but we are eternal heroes and can go beyond that level.  In terms of power creep, what this gains you is the ability to switch between runes for more flexibility but a newbie can pick a focus and achieve that point over several months.

Ya, that's not a cap.

 

If the skills decayed significantly over time then it could be considered a bastardized cap, but as described in your post it isn't a cap. It's just:

 

"It would take a long time to max everything!"

 

Which is true. However, diversity breaks down long before anyone maxes everything.

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If the skills decayed significantly over time then it could be considered a bastardized cap, but as described in your post it isn't a cap. It's just:

 

 

Which is true. However, diversity breaks down long before anyone maxes everything.

This is probably true. People might have variances, but, I feel currently they'd be too minute once you get to that level of progression. One guy having 2% more crit chance because the other has 4% more health (and likely a dozen more micro variances like that) ultimately doesn't make for much diversity towards the 'end'. Whatever that is.

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Ya, that's not a cap.

 

Which is true. However, diversity breaks down long before anyone maxes everything.

Which is why I followed up with a sentence about how you should call that your new baseline and establish diversity off that.

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Which is why I followed up with a sentence about how you should call that your new baseline and establish diversity off that.

I know man. The only reason I'm kind of being ticky on the point is that I've had the same discussion so many times over on the SOTA forums.

 

I've got a very bad feeling for that game. The inmates are in charge of the asylum to put it mildly. I don't think its a danger here because Todd and Gordon are pretty firm in their convictions - whether we agree with all of them or not. Still, this idea (unlimited skill progression or no cap) pervades both game designs and that worries me. I think it's important.

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Ok I could be wrong on this but it is my assumption that this game is modeling there skill trees the same way EvE does it. This means that individual skills have a cap but there is no overall cap for sp. The longer you train the more options you will have available, more passive bonuses. Given the training time I'm seeing on the skills and what I've heard in the podcast it would seem that it will take years to max out all the skills. So characters will differentiate based on which skills they train 1st. And given the number of options I can feel safe in saying that your character has a very good chance of being and feeling unique.

Edited by Dwarfknight

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I know man. The only reason I'm kind of being ticky on the point is that I've had the same discussion so many times over on the SOTA forums.

 

I've got a very bad feeling for that game. The inmates are in charge of the asylum to put it mildly. I don't think its a danger here because Todd and Gordon are pretty firm in their convictions - whether we agree with all of them or not. Still, this idea (unlimited skill progression or no cap) pervades both game designs and that worries me. I think it's important.

 

Did you kickstart/fund SOTA?  I've heard a lot of unfortunate reviews about that game - the expectations were set pretty high with it.  I can definitely understand your reservations if so.  But I have to agree about Todd and Gordon, and I'm glad others see it too.

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tl;dr The game doesn't attempt to create the illusion of choice and the system emphasizes horizontal progress, thus skill, rather than vertical progress, thus meta.

 

I'm going to completely disagree based solely on crit chance being an option. That tells me there will be generic flat damage buffs on the tree. And that tells me that a spreadsheet can be used to calculate the best option.

 

Everyone should repeat this mantra "Its not a choice if a spreadsheet can tell me what to do."

 

 

Is movement speed better than stealth? Or are both crap compared to a dodge roll with iframes? Those are hard questions that would generate endless debate on the forum. Is 5 DPS better than 6DPS? Well, do we need our intelligence insulted by pretending that's even a question?


David Sirlin's Balancing Multiplayer Games should be mandatory reading for all gamers.

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It really boils down to the often subjective value of each passive "skill" bonus when compared with all skills across all trees (archetype, combat, crafting, exploration), which will lead to a lot of diversity with varying degrees of effectiveness in different aspects of the game.

 

If you were strictly comparing two DPS skills, it might be determined that one offers a bigger advantage over the other (let's say crit vs attack), so it might always be taken first, but it's not an either/or proposition, because in fact you can take both; there might also be soft caps on stats so that they have diminished returns.  At some point stacking more crit may not add as much dps as adding more attack. 

 

Even though this is the case, because of the ability to enable PvP in EKs, players will have a perfect testing ground to control variables allowing people to quickly figure out the damage formula, at which point decisions on what order to take skills in the archetype and combat trees will become more streamlined.  More damage however, does not always equate to the optimal PvP builds - you have to take into consideration survivability: mitigation, movement buffs, resource pools, stuns and other forms of CC, as well as resistances.   

 

Unless you are building a character with laser focus on combat effectiveness, you also have to weigh each skill point spent against available skills in the exploration and crafting trees.   It remains to be seen how many skills from the exploration tree will have a direct impact on combat, it's safe to say they will certainly have a big influence on strategy and choosing engagement (when, where, and who to fight).

 

I am not concerned with level of diversity with what we know so far, but I am worried about the long-term power gap between new characters and established characters.


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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So are the complete skill trees going to be known before hand so can plan accordingly?

 

or

 

Are there going to be hidden paths that can be opened up?

I would assume this will all be out there by the end of beta. Edited by yamix

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Nice. This is one of the areas I've been waiting to test.

From my initial perusal of the article, I'm happier and more comfortable now than I was yesterday. Character building is the primary reason I play these games. Group coordinated combat being the other large reason.

We have to be allowed to make mistakes and even permanent mistakes or this just isn't going to be all that fun for guys like me.

Now add a system that includes either no respeccing or very slow and expensive respeccing and I'll be even happier.

One question. Will there be a soft or hard skill cap? Or a diminishing return? I would not think you would be wise to allow players to train to 100 in every available skill. I think that would be the case even within the base class without respect to promotion classes. Forced choice is required else there's really no choice. See SOTA as an example of this done wrong and Ultima Online as an example of this done right.

sb had strict no fix polocies at first. It made it hardcore and each character that much more special. Now its just everyone has dozens of toons and half they jave played little more than to lvl up.


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They said the Trees were Archetype, Combat, Exploration, and Crafting, but what if they've redacted information to protect the big December announcement, and there is actually one more Skill Tree.  A Deity Skill Tree.


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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More damage however, does not always equate to the optimal PvP builds - you have to take into consideration survivability: mitigation, movement buffs, resource pools, stuns and other forms of CC, as well as resistances.  

 

Which is sort of the thing. Choosing how many points to put in damage and how many to use on survival/movement is interesting. Figuring out the best way to spend your damage points is rarely interesting because it is the part that is most easily calculated.

 

There is also an issue where abilities you use in a town/safe area can't really be a choice against abilities you use in the field. Make two accounts and have two separate characters.


David Sirlin's Balancing Multiplayer Games should be mandatory reading for all gamers.

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