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FAQ: Skills and skill trees - Official discussion thread


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There is also an issue where abilities you use in a town/safe area can't really be a choice against abilities you use in the field. Make two accounts and have two separate characters.

I get what you're saying, and agree for the most part, but I'll throw out this caveat, there are no "safe areas" in the campaign worlds, just areas that are relatively safe, like a stronghold held by your guild or faction.  Because of limited import campaigns, they are relying on crafters being in the CWs, they can't all just hang out in the EKs. 

 

I just wonder how much squishier a character will be who focus solely on crafting, and whether or not they will preyed upon in the CW, to prevent the equipping of your opponent.

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Amoungst other things, the goal is to put many craftable items beyond wearable equipment that you seek out different types of crafters for.   Also I must appologise there are many details I had to c

Ah, I possibly just realized why they're doing this whole "no cap" thing which some people are a little off on.    To save time, here's the video I happened to watch when I realized this: https://ww

Well yeah, otherwise you wouldn't be able to make a Praetorian with Stealth!

Ya, that's not a cap.

 

If the skills decayed significantly over time then it could be considered a bastardized cap, but as described in your post it isn't a cap. It's just:

 

Which is true. However, diversity breaks down long before anyone maxes everything.

Coolwaters, I'm generally with you.  But, don't forget also that a big part of Shadowbane's diversity came from making choices that affected the skill caps themselves.  Since Crowfall seems to be adapting and extending that system (keeping Advantages/Disadvantages from starter runes, Archetype changes caps, Promotion Class changes caps, and more disciplines which also change caps), even if everyone can fully skill their toon, there will be significant differences (in theory, still) between characters who started essentially the same.

 

I do agree with there being a skill cap that is not "max everything", but I just wanted to point out that max everything is not quite equal to all characters converging to sameness.

 

I think that the skill cap can be quite high, but still exist.  So after, say, 1-2 years, a character is complete but not maxed.  I am totally behind making there be more serious character choices and a reasonable cap will encourage folks to not get too attached to characters that starting a new character seems completely unreasonable and introducing new archetypes and promotion classes is reasonable even years into the game.

 

There are a lot of interesting design decisions to be made, but I think that character diversity (within archetype) is paramount and might be thought of as a design axiom in a game where choices matter.

Edited by mctan
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Here's a thought - what if death causes loss of skills across the board (such as in EVE), but that a choice of God allows you to protect certain skills or automatically does so for relevant ones? (IE, Malakai protects Stealth, Kane protects crafting, etc). This would also balance the lack of skill cap, because the loss of skills would constantly set back even maxed characters.

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Here's a thought - what if death causes loss of skills across the board (such as in EVE), but that a choice of God allows you to protect certain skills or automatically does so for relevant ones? (IE, Malakai protects Stealth, Kane protects crafting, etc). This would also balance the lack of skill cap, because the loss of skills would constantly set back even maxed characters.

I think that this is too big a death penalty. It would discourage PvP, the central basis of CF.

 

We already have the ability to max out every skill we can train.

Skill degradation upon death extends the time needed for new toons to become viable campaign contributors.

Full loot, item deterioration and item destruction provide enough risk/reward to keep combat exciting without new players being run off by the huge skill gap.

 

Because inexperienced players with lower-skilled toons die more often, this idea would have the opposite effect of your claim, IMAO.

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We`ll see in next months what ACE designed for us. Be some kind of cap or not. Problems is, how big is that cap? Or if there is none, how fast you level skills? And how much they change your gameplay/skills?

If there is none skill cap and leveling certains skills takes more time ( similar to eve skills levels for example ) it`s not that bad idea. If reaching certains skills to lvl 100 and getting small bonus from it, that may lead to good and bad choices during leveling. With proper prerequisite for certain skills even without cap some specializations can be hard to obtain. Where basic skills can be easier for leveling.

Dont know if you guys understand what i mean :) My english is not good, but you should understand what im trying to say.

 

Anyway personally i hope for some kind of cap. With that there will be bigger meaning for having more characters, and choosing skills wisely. Not even saying about potential money for ACE from selling aditional character slots and VIP.

 

Anyway i hope that there will be difference between my char builded for scouting and small skirmishes and other toon that is supposed to fight during sieges and focus on different roles.

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If the skill advancement system is basicly uncapped I would think that other things you can do to your toon (applying runes) will be the game breaker! There will probably be a limit to what runes and how many you can apply to your toon.

 

PvP wise I think nobody cares that you can advance say "fishing skill" to all times high.

 

Guess we will just have to wait and see till the next time they feed the pigeons some crumbles.

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If the skill advancement system is basicly uncapped I would think that other things you can do to your toon (applying runes) will be the game breaker! There will probably be a limit to what runes and how many you can apply to your toon.

 

PvP wise I think nobody cares that you can advance say "fishing skill" to all times high.

 

Guess we will just have to wait and see till the next time they feed the pigeons some crumbles.

limits confirmed.

Blixtev has stated a 3 discipline maximum, but seems to be considering 4 max.

Also the FAQ states:

 

DO THE DISCIPLINES HAVE RESTRICTIONS?

 

Some of them do, yes. These are either thematic or budgetary (meaning “this requires a huge number of animations that we can’t afford immediately.”) The former restrictions are not likely to change; the latter will likely be lessened over time, as budget permits.

An example of the former is: Guinecean Duelists don’t have access to Archery, because their civilization has developed gunpowder. Instead, they use flintlock pistols. An example of the latter is: the Cavalier Discipline (which grants shield mastery and block powers) would also not be usable by Duelist archetype, because they don't have the necessary skill pre-requirements (shields) nor the required animation sets.

 

Edited by chancellor

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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I get what you're saying, and agree for the most part, but I'll throw out this caveat, there are no "safe areas" in the campaign worlds, just areas that are relatively safe, like a stronghold held by your guild or faction.  Because of limited import campaigns, they are relying on crafters being in the CWs, they can't all just hang out in the EKs. 

 

I just wonder how much squishier a character will be who focus solely on crafting, and whether or not they will preyed upon in the CW, to prevent the equipping of your opponent.

Well, since a crafter won't be focusing most of their effort on the Combat skill tree, my guess would be that they'll be rather squishy (relative to CF squishy-ness). Now, eventually they'll have time to work on combat proficiency, but since they'll probably base all their gameplay on crafting, they will never be as good as a dedicated fighter. Even so, CF won't have 1-shot kills, and since you're a crafter odds are you always have some gear on hand, but most likely you will lose to the power of skill progression. You'll just leave them with some sweet wounds to lick later ^_^

 

EDIT: Just to add my 2 cents on the skill-cap debate (just got done reading some massive argumentative posts about it o.O), I realize I'm a bit torn on the issue. The obvious first problem is that we don't have all the info, so I'm not going to claim to know much. Heck, I know very little. What I do know, however, is the obvious: Skills are going to be dependent on many, MANY factors. First of all: Archetype. I doubt a Confessor is going to have the same ability to master weapons as a Knight. For all we know, without Disciplines Cons can't master any weapons outside of their beloved books/spells (NOT CONFIRMED, THEORY ONLY!). So no matter what, choosing your archetype is going to be a huge decision as far as playstyle goes. To add on top of the Combat proficiencies we have Crafting, and I'm fairly certain the Forgemaster is going to be the king of this particular field, at least until another crafter enters the line-up. 

 

I would also like to bring up a possibility that I think many people are assuming whether it's true or not: maxing. Yes, eventually everyone will be able to max out their skills, this is true. But here's why I think we need more info: Do we know if the max is the same for every Archetype? I mean Sentinels, Crusaders and Swordsmans all start as Knights, but have very different gameplay. No matter what, that Sentinel's Archery skill is going to be better than the other two, but more importantly I don't think any of the other weapon skills get an increased cap (AGAIN, THEORY). Add a couple Disciplines and excellent beginning choices for Advantages/Disadvantages, and boom! You may well have the best Sentinel in the game. Doesn't mean you'll be the best Sniper, that's what Stalkers are for B)

 

That being said, however: that kind of means that this totally open progression does not destroy the possibility of "best build". I think the word they were using was "meta". There is always going to be a best build, no matter what kind of game you play. However, if I may talk about a game I love: The Secret World. You can master everything in that game. All weapons, all skills. Guess what? People love it. Why? Because suddenly you don't have to hunt down that perfect healer. If someone has mastered multiple things, they can be whatever the group lacks. However, even that choice has consequences. If you choose to be an awesome healer, guess what? Boom! You are super-squishy. You can't be a Tank Healer of unrivaled DPS. You have to choose, even if you've mastered everything. Crowfall still has some limitations, they are not going to this extreme of "everyone can do everything". Some are always going to be better than others, no matter how long you play.

 

So, if I may ask... What's the problem with this system?

Edited by shadowfang1992

Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


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Great info! I'm among the many Crows who appreciate a look at a skill tree in light of the new vessels concept. Looking good, ACE! 

 

Go, go, go!

 

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Hello all!

 

I am super late to this thread and yes this is a necro of it, but for good reason...

 

WHY is a game based on a CAMPAIGN SYSTEM with a large PvP focus...utilizing a skill system which revels in POWER GAPS and POWER CREEP.

 

The skill system and number of skills sounds great. Heck it looks awesome to be able to train into all those skills, but...it is so obvious how this entire system generates a huge power gap and that power gap is entirely time based.

 

From an immediate and first glance observation you see so many issues:

 

  1. Long term players always have more power
  2. Player actions in-game have literally no affect on a players power since it is all passive time based gain
  3. Power gap will either mean new players no longer join (EVE's current problem) or the devs will have to NUMBER CRUNCH and extremely reduce the effectiveness of power after a period of time so they no one is strong or after a period of time after launch, increase the speed at which early skills are learned and due this repeatedly throughout the games life span.

Correct me if I am missing something there, but this is a straight up time based linear power system which the player has no real affect other than choosing which linear path they want to go down today.

 

What really saddens me here is that Crowfall has a CAMPAIGN system, and this system fails to utilize that special system to innovate on their skill system.

 

I can think of (think of may mean there are still so many flaws to these ideas of course) a few:
 

  1. Campaign resets skills like a table top campaign would
  2. Campaign resets skills, but you keep a certain amount that you get to allocate
  3. Campaign resets skills, but depending on how you did in that campaign, you get to pre-allocate some next campaign
  4. Campaign resets skills, but you now train skills at an increased rate based on previous campaign skills (5%, 10% etc faster)
  5. Allow passive training but introduce active training (If you use a sword you train that sword).

I am sorry to necro this thread almost a year later, but I am not sure how the blatant long term issues were never noticed or discussed before.

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Um i got sucked into a revived thread.... oops

 

The devs have already said they envision a catch up mechanic for new players, not to mention the first X% of a skill trains significantly faster than the last Y%. New players will be acquiring skills at a much faster rate than veteran players. I don't understand why new players feel they should be on equal footing as veteran players. 

 

The problem is not the passive training, but the fact that given enough time you can train everything. Since they have moved all skills to the account instead of the character because of the vessel system, the feasibility of a skill cap is diminished. Before the skill system was revealed and there was still speculation on if there would be caps or not I advocated for skill caps because in that regard choice really matters.

 

 

TL;DR

Devs have already addressed your concern by saying there will be an eventual catch up mechanic.

Edited by Verot
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Um i got sucked into a revived thread.... oops

 

The devs have already said they envision a catch up mechanic for new players, not to mention the first X% of a skill trains significantly faster than the last Y%. New players will be acquiring skills at a much faster rate than veteran players. I don't understand why new players feel they should be on equal footing as veteran players. 

 

The problem is not the passive training, but the fact that given enough time you can train everything. Since they have moved all skills to the account instead of the character because of the vessel system, the feasibility of a skill cap is diminished. Before the skill system was revealed and there was still speculation on if there would be caps or not I advocated for skill caps because in that regard choice really matters.

 

 

TL;DR

Devs have already addressed your concern by saying there will be an eventual catch up mechanic.

 

I don't think a catch up mechanic addresses my concern at all, especially since the entire mechanic is time based and the player has no direct influence over it, this the player is removed from the equation. What is the point of a game where the player is a hindrance to the system.

 

Now I based all of what I said on the fact that there is no cap, and I saw that no cap quickly killed Darkfall in a matter of 3 months, I figured the no cap was fine with the idea of some sort of campaign reset in some manner. Long time players should be rewarded that is why I had various suggestions that included that fact.

 

 

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Meh, I was hoping for a cap.

 

Basically given enough time anyone has the same build.

 

 

Promotions are Archetype specific, yes.

 

 

From what we see so far, the Promotion and Discipline choice will be the actual "build" players will be able to create while the skill tree is not so much that as simply one's progress within certain piece of their build. The decisions within the skill tree are simply how you wish to reach the end "maximum" state. While looking at the end result, all players will have the maxed out skill tree to some degree for certain, but given that progress here is time-based the journey to that end result will likely be important decisions to players before reaching that point.

 

 

If you eventually get all of the useful skills, then they would all be essentially the same. I'm just playing devil's advocate here, with enough details we may find that there are so many prerequisites that you are effectively limited.

 

I'm not actually replying to each of these posts, I quoted them because they represent more of the theme I'm replying too.

 

I think people are leaving out a big piece of the puzzle in this discussion.  Vessels.  Now I may be wrong on how I've been interpreting things but this is how I see it.  Your character build isn't at the crow level, which is why you can train everything.  It's at the vessel level.  So while your crow doesn't have a skill cap, your vessel most certainly will.  Training skills on your crow is essentially unlocking options to use at the vessel level.  So even if you train your axe skill or stealth skill or whatever skill to 125, if you don't get a vessel that allows you to use all 125 points, you won't be able to use them even if they're trained on your crow.

 

So basically, I think there will be a skill cap.  People are just looking in the wrong spot to find it.

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They can effectively implement a skill cap by simplying restricting the quality levels of obtainable vessels within a campaign. If only basic, rudimentary vessels can be found/created then it wouldn't really matter if someones been playing for 5 years or 5 days.

 

I don't think they need to reinvent the skill system, plenty of leverage within the existing framework to implement solutions for the people concerned here about new players.

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They can effectively implement a skill cap by simplying restricting the quality levels of obtainable vessels within a campaign. If only basic, rudimentary vessels can be found/created then it wouldn't really matter if someones been playing for 5 years or 5 days.

 

I don't think they need to reinvent the skill system, plenty of leverage within the existing framework to implement solutions for the people concerned here about new players.

 

CWs with a no skill cap vessel and ones that do is the most gracful way I've heard of addressing this. If you are new and feel like you're at a disadvantage pick the "Green Quality" vessel limit CW. 

 

If you don't care about the differences and want to play in the unlimited "Orange Quality" vessel CW then it's your choice. I love this idea so much!

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