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Gordon Walton - are you the one who brought us Trammel?

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Ha, Played UO 1999-2002 ; trammel was one of the reasons I liked that game and played it so much .That's not to say I didnt do guild pvp or felucca red ganking, I did; but 95% of my time was spent in tramm mostly crafting / resource gathering and fishing. 

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Do you think we will ever see a game with the depth and breadth of SWG again? From what we know so far, I can't see Crowfall being that game because of the lack of a game structure for community and social activity like SWG had. For people who didn't play SWG, there were social-specific Professions: Dancer, Musician, Image Designer. Their whole purpose revolved around social events and activities. Crowfall is pretty well focused on combat and it's supporting systems.

 

I feel like an entire niche was lost when SWG went down, a niche no MMO since has really been able to capture. I assume most of the social class players ended up getting heavilly involved with social media stuff but I still think they could be pulled back if a game offered them similar classes. When people forget is, while PVPers like me would never play any of those classes, they do a great deal for the games environment. They create content and immersion and a social structure that makes it hard to walk away. Them combined with a division of labor is what I think made SWG feel like a real world to live in rather than a game to play in.

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Ha, Played UO 1999-2002 ; trammel was one of the reasons I liked that game and played it so much .That's not to say I didnt do guild pvp or felucca red ganking, I did; but 95% of my time was spent in tramm mostly crafting / resource gathering and fishing.

 

Sounds so exciting.

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I feel like an entire niche was lost when SWG went down, a niche no MMO since has really been able to capture. I assume most of the social class players ended up getting heavilly involved with social media stuff but I still think they could be pulled back if a game offered them similar classes. When people forget is, while PVPers like me would never play any of those classes, they do a great deal for the games environment. They create content and immersion and a social structure that makes it hard to walk away. Them combined with a division of labor is what I think made SWG feel like a real world to live in rather than a game to play in.

Perfectly stated. I would love for Crowfall to be a world I am interested in investing in. The EK doesn't fit the bill (yet), and it is the only thing in Crowfall with the possibility to. Every game I have played since SWG has just been something to kill a few hours. Well, I guess I "invested" in WoW, but in a completely unhealthy way revolving around 'dailies' and gear grinding. I've never felt the interest in connecting to a community in a game since SWG. Never had a reason too! Multiple characters (SWG allowed only 1 character per account) allow me to be completely self-sufficient and play mostly solo. Which, BTW, I am bummed Crowfall has allowed multiple characters....

 

Anyway, maybe Gordon has bigger plans we've not seen yet!

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Trammel may have changed the dynamics of UO, but it did open it up to a broader market and make the game more "successful" (In business terms)

 

That is the goal of a game company...make money. It was short term money though, and eventually it may have been what killed the game for many.

 

I think Gordon has done a good job of explaining what and why Trammel happened.

 

I still don't see the hang up on the EK. If it doesn't interest you, it is irrelevant to your enjoyment of the game. It is not Trammel. The campaigns are a must, and the EK will not rob the Campaigns of their worth.

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The problem with most so called modern MMO's are trying to definition and pigeon hole a player's experience via achievements, dailies, quests, etc...

 

So players logging in have a 'nice enjoyable ride'....

 

Where as the older MMO's cuz of technology and other limitations only have limited activities and these players took it upon themselves to entertain themselves at the expense of other players.

 

Fast forward, look at league of legends, its a very casual friendly game with a system that actually separates the skillful from the less skillful, and provides a nice balance to eqpt, and different team compositions and builds.

 

I look forward to Crowfall setting a new kind of game that is able to set a new standard in the MMO gaming industry. To achieve this imo, there needs to be more player vs player activities in the world that are inter-related to the world, eg. trader caravan's, bounties, assassinations, etc... In short, create more content for player to player interaction and let the players decide when and how to play them. Most MMO's are boring now is because players are literally told that they have to do this to have fun....

 

For Crowfall, the hunger system is good, but than why stop with the hunger? Why not go further and look at the main culprit behind the hunger? Can these be the reason players are able to delay the hunger to buy time to win a campaign? The point is give the choice to the players to make, rather than force it upon them like what is happening in so many so called modern MMO's.

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I think that many see the EK as being a "substitute "  for SWG and imagined they could recreate there the type of experience they had in the game they loved w/o necessarily getting involved with the rest of the game.  That the EK and the Campaigns would some how be separated, much like the campaign worlds.   And playable unto themselves.   The campaigns being the heart of the game appears to be a HUGE problem for some.   

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Sounds so exciting.

 

To each their own. I enjoyed it thoroughly and still go back to UO private servers for about once a month every year. You know what I do? Craft / gather. I find it relaxing and rewarding. I also play many pvp games where i dont touch crafting / gathering. 

 

I believe it comes down to rewards. If i dont feel like im being rewarded for X, then there isnt a reason for me to do it. What reward do you get for only playing in fel and pvp'ing non stop? I'm seriously asking. Is it the fame, griefing, getting loot others worked for, or was it city territorial control (the only reason I see doing pvp in that game)? There wasn't a drive for me to do pvp at all in UO. I did it to have fun with friends, but overall it wasn't a relaxing experience that I wanted to partake in.

 

Now... As soon as DaoC came out I played that for 8 years; host my own private server, go back to live once a year and play with my old characters. I pvp'ed my ass off in that game. Why? Because I got rewarded (via points) with new abilities and relics that in-turn lead me to be more powerful, get new points, new abilities. It also had great group synergies that encouraged people playing together.

 

I encourage CF's pvp system as much i've seen / heard / read about as I feel I'll be rewarded. On the topic of UO, pvp just didnt feel rewarding to me.

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Perhaps the question we should be asking of Gordon is what's the plan if Crowfall falls short on sales.

 

Todd and I early on had discussions around having our games be what they were intended to be, not trying to please everyone.  So to answer your question more directly, we win or die with Crowfall on it's merits.  We continue to say the game is not for everyone, and that we hope to find enough people who embrace the vision/experience to make that risk worthwhile.  Right now that looks pretty positive given the response to our crowdfunding so far.  We don't take it for granted though and will continue to work to earn our backers trust and loyalty.  

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Todd and I early on had discussions around having our games be what they were intended to be, not trying to please everyone.  So to answer your question more directly, we win or die with Crowfall on it's merits.  We continue to say the game is not for everyone, and that we hope to find enough people who embrace the vision/experience to make that risk worthwhile.  Right now that looks pretty positive given the response to our crowdfunding so far.  We don't take it for granted though and will continue to work to earn our backers trust and loyalty.  

How do you always say the right things, don't you ever slip up or get angry ? Does a P.R. person screen your posts beforehand ?

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Do you think we will ever see a game with the depth and breadth of SWG again? From what we know so far, I can't see Crowfall being that game because of the lack of a game structure for community and social activity like SWG had. For people who didn't play SWG, there were social-specific Professions: Dancer, Musician, Image Designer. Their whole purpose revolved around social events and activities. Crowfall is pretty well focused on combat and it's supporting systems.

 

Raph got an amazing amount of design latitude on SWG, and the Star Wars universe was an excellent setting for those ideas.  My guess is you'll only see this from a small team that's willing to take big risks and who is not funded by any of the big publishers.  Basically a team that is analogous to ours.  And they better get Raph is my $0.02 or a clone!

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Todd and I early on had discussions around having our games be what they were intended to be, not trying to please everyone.  So to answer your question more directly, we win or die with Crowfall on it's merits.  We continue to say the game is not for everyone, and that we hope to find enough people who embrace the vision/experience to make that risk worthwhile.  Right now that looks pretty positive given the response to our crowdfunding so far.  We don't take it for granted though and will continue to work to earn our backers trust and loyalty.  

Thanks for this Gordon.  Always good to be reassured that YOUR vision  ( and now ours ) is being adhered to.  The vision is why I backed ya'll and continue to support.

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Raph got an amazing amount of design latitude on SWG, and the Star Wars universe was an excellent setting for those ideas.  My guess is you'll only see this from a small team that's willing to take big risks and who is not funded by any of the big publishers.  Basically a team that is analogous to ours.  And they better get Raph is my $0.02 or a clone!

 

Repopulation is trying to provide that, as well as adding the conquest element. 

 

As much as I loved SWG, it was not without its weaknesses pre NGE. The social elements were fun, especially if you had an active guild. In the meta, to me, it also seemed overly static. The game had little to do in the long run as a competitive goal. You could make your cities prettier, your house prettier, or you could have some consentual player versus player combat. It didn't feel dangerous enough, and I didn't realize that was something I needed in a game until I was led kicking and screaming into more competitive games. 

 

Repopulation might solve that with nation conflict, but from the alpha iterations I have played it still seems way to safe. It could be a player count issue (low pop large worlds) or it could be design oriented. Still, if you like the social classes and are fine with making structures pretty as the main content source then Repop is probably exactly what you are looking for. It plays almost exactly like a one species SWG. 

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I think that many see the EK as being a "substitute "  for SWG and imagined they could recreate there the type of experience they had in the game they loved w/o necessarily getting involved with the rest of the game.  That the EK and the Campaigns would some how be separated, much like the campaign worlds.   And playable unto themselves.   The campaigns being the heart of the game appears to be a HUGE problem for some.   

I agree, and to a degree this applies to me. I read the initial Crowfall announcement that included (Walton, Blix, and Koster's involvement, all crafting and 'virtual world' guys) and took that to mean that Crowfall would have a robust social, mercantile, and crafting evironment. Presumably this would be focused mostly (but not all) in the EK. The next half dozen info drops pushed us farther and farther away from this exciting (for me) idea, leaving us with just PvP and crafting in PvP areas.

I've never been opposed to the Dying Worlds. I've never had a problem with getting involved there. But it would have been something I did when I took a break from the *rest* of the game I expected to be able to play. I still don't see how this would hurt PvP. Considering all useful resources come from the DW, it will be a vital part of the game. Import rules will further marginalize crafting in the EK (to different degrees). But I've let go of my initial hope. I figure crafting might still be enough to entice me to play. And the EK document is supposedly still on the way, so who knows.

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Perfectly stated. I would love for Crowfall to be a world I am interested in investing in. The EK doesn't fit the bill (yet), and it is the only thing in Crowfall with the possibility to. Every game I have played since SWG has just been something to kill a few hours. Well, I guess I "invested" in WoW, but in a completely unhealthy way revolving around 'dailies' and gear grinding. I've never felt the interest in connecting to a community in a game since SWG. Never had a reason too! Multiple characters (SWG allowed only 1 character per account) allow me to be completely self-sufficient and play mostly solo. Which, BTW, I am bummed Crowfall has allowed multiple characters....

 

Anyway, maybe Gordon has bigger plans we've not seen yet!

 

Hopefully it's clear we aren't trying to remake SWG, though we are making crafting as critical to the game ecosystem as the conflict is.  Those dependencies should drive the deep socialization we are aiming for.  (and of course we have more plans, and as they become better jelled, we will share them, that part of this participatory process of crowdfunding a game!)

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Repopulation is trying to provide that, as well as adding the conquest element. 

 

As much as I loved SWG, it was not without its weaknesses pre NGE. The social elements were fun, especially if you had an active guild. In the meta, to me, it also seemed overly static. The game had little to do in the long run as a competitive goal. You could make your cities prettier, your house prettier, or you could have some consentual player versus player combat. It didn't feel dangerous enough, and I didn't realize that was something I needed in a game until I was led kicking and screaming into more competitive games. 

 

Repopulation might solve that with nation conflict, but from the alpha iterations I have played it still seems way to safe. It could be a player count issue (low pop large worlds) or it could be design oriented. Still, if you like the social classes and are fine with making structures pretty as the main content source then Repop is probably exactly what you are looking for. It plays almost exactly like a one species SWG. 

 

This is typical for many people I think, they shun competitive games with more risk to them because who wants to lose stuff you worked hard for right? You pretty much have to experience it to realize that it's that very risk that makes it meaningful and worthwhile in the first place. Everyone should be forced to give games like this a serious try so they can see the error of their ways.  :D

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Gordon, hook a broke college student up with a bloodstone pledge? :P seriously tho, I enjoyed this thread and your responses, when push comes to shove I hope you know it's okay to push back alpha, beta, and launch if it's not ready! Keep on keeping on.

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Hopefully it's clear we aren't trying to remake SWG, though we are making crafting as critical to the game ecosystem as the conflict is.  Those dependencies should drive the deep socialization we are aiming for.  (and of course we have more plans, and as they become better jelled, we will share them, that part of this participatory process of crowdfunding a game!)

I've come to grips with the "loss" of SWG's breadth (which was my fault for reading into what we were told about Crowfall. Part of my desire to re-capture the magic, heh) in Crowfall. I've always been excited about the crafting. I'm now looking forward to a new question answered: Can a brand new character start the game as a crafter, or will we have to be a combatant for a while until we get experienced enough to take up "crafting disciplines"? I seem to recall all crafting is a runestone/discipline, which is the third step in character customization. 

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How do you always say the right things, don't you ever slip up or get angry ? Does a P.R. person screen your posts beforehand ?

 

Hahaha!  Always good to start a day laughing out loud.  I am a bane to most PR people because I have a strong tendency to say what I think.

 

Seriously though, we aren't in the spin business, we're in the trust and service business.  That means we have to tell the truth (to the extent we know it/understand it), pretty much all the time. 

 

On anger, I get angry like everyone else, but I try to put myself in the other persons shoes, to see what about their context is driving how they're communicating to me.  In most cases, if we were talking in person, the conversation would be more civil, so I try and let any emotion/hyperbole slide as just emotion being used for emphasis.

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When people forget is, while PVPers like me would never play any of those classes, they do a great deal for the games environment. They create content and immersion and a social structure that makes it hard to walk away.

 

Exactly! Whilst people always talk about game community a lot disregard this part entirely. While social structure is certainly part of definition 'game community' it is not the same everywhere and it is not present to the same extent.

 

Them combined with a division of labor is what I think made SWG feel like a real world to live in rather than a game to play in.

 

We can ask, plead or demand from developers all we want to make a world instead of just game. But this ^^ makes game a world, after all. People.

Kudos, Tierless, great post (had to fix it, because without your name it read like I congratulate myself :D).

 

Todd and I early on had discussions around having our games be what they were intended to be, not trying to please everyone.  So to answer your question more directly, we win or die with Crowfall on it's merits.  We continue to say the game is not for everyone, and that we hope to find enough people who embrace the vision/experience to make that risk worthwhile.  Right now that looks pretty positive given the response to our crowdfunding so far.

 

That's admirable indeed. Especially 'not trying to please everyone' and 'we win or die'. Latter is just daring.

 

We don't take it for granted though and will continue to work to earn our backers trust and loyalty.

 

'Your mission is a success. Would you like to continue campaign? Y/N y' :)

Looks like are doing well in your intention and continue succeed to at every turn.

Edited by rolan storm

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