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morrolan

Gordon Walton - are you the one who brought us Trammel?

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This post needs to be read and reread by you guys....I will paraphrase, this game is not going to be the casual/PvE or a broad audience game.  If you guys do not like this,  get out now.  You are going to be disappointed if for 1 second you think you can get the rules altered to make this game fluffy and caring.  It is not going to happen.

 

I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game. I'm starting to think people just don't listen to me  :(

 

 

Next time one of these threads pop up (probably sometime tomorrow) can y'all do me a favor and let them know their concerns are ill-found? 

 

Furthermore this is a sandbox, If they wanted a themepark, they would have made something like we have had for the past 10 years...If you want hand holding go back to WoW or the other 50 WoW clones.

Edited by nakawe

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There is a difference between a niche PVP-game and a playground for poorly made socksfaces, tho ;)

 

Besides, this game DOES already cater for both sides of this argument: There are the Dregs and there is the other rulesets to cater for each ones liking. I'm pretty sure these different rulesets will also cater to different mindsets regarding the players that prefer each.

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While he does take his stance to an extreme, he does have a point and your post exemplifies it very well. The behavior you describe - teabagging, corpsecamping and the like - has nothing at all to do with PVP. Players have been able to compete just fine in sports, board games and other player vs player activities without the behavior you describe. Actually, in many professional sports, the type of behavior you advocate is either against the rules or simply considered poor sportsmanship.

 

nakawe, you *can* say "lol pz" or "so rekt" to each person you kill in an MMO, just like you *can* do that after winning a hand in poker or taking someone's piece in chess. What you don't seem to get is that it is not a part of gameplay and it's behavior that makes people stop playing with you. 

 

"THIS IS A PVP GAME" is immaterial. However, if your argument is "In MMO PVP, gamesmanship trumps sportsmanship," then maybe you're on to something. Unfortunately, that something is everything that is wrong with MMO PVP.

 

Here we go, LEARN HOW TO SEPARATE RL FROM A FANTASY GAME.  This is not a little league game.  It is a PvP game.  In a pvp game you have t-bagging corpse camping, crap talking  pking PvPer's.  If you don't like these players get your little group of fluffy friends together and hunt them down.  Run them out of the game....Trust me ,  I will trying to be doing the same to you.

 

Quit trying to change the game to meet your own agenda and what you feel is just.  Take some initiative and do something about it your self.  You have a choice what to be in a pvp game, a wolf or a lamb...

Edited by nakawe

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I wonder if equating a video game to a bar is appropriate?

 

It's one of the most appropriate. Both are mixed company of people with diverse backgrounds and often a broad spectrum of ages and interests. A basic rule of courtesy is to avoid politics, sex and religion. Anyone here that has ever spent two minutes in an MMO's global chat can attest to the fact that those three are the main tools of the trade for channel trolls. One of the first things to do when entering a new bar, club, MMO, meet up, etc is to listen. After hearing the language that others are using, it's common to - some might even say necessary to -  adjust their language to fit the group. Actually, to cut this really short, just think of the various obnoxious characters you have met in mixed-company social gatherings. All those same social do's and don't seem to apply rather well to MMOs.

 

 

The corollary is your local watering hole, which often has a far more monolithic crowd in disposition, demographics and direction.

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There is a difference between a niche PVP-game and a playground for poorly made socksfaces, tho ;)

 

Besides, this game DOES already cater for both sides of this argument: There are the Dregs and there is the other rulesets to cater for each ones liking. I'm pretty sure these different rulesets will also cater to different mindsets regarding the players that prefer each.

I am thinking of bypassing the dregs just to kill the fluffies and make their game miserable.....

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here we go, LEARN HOW TO SEPARATE RL FROM A FANTASY GAME.  This is not a little league game.  It is a PvP game.  In a pvp game you have t bagging corpse camping, crap talking  pking PvPer's.  If you don't like these players get your little group of fluffy friends together and hunt them down.  Run them out of the game....Quit trying to change the game to meet your own agenda and what you feel is just.

 

 

Two points here.

 

First: the idea that a multiplayer game is completely separated from real life is a really bad idea that just needs to die. This isn't a single-player game where there are no consequences, no long-term effects for what happens. Your corpse-camping someone essentially means that they're completely unable to play the game until you stop. If that happens often enough, people will just stop playing the game.

 

You say, "Run them out of the game." If this is really part of your idea of what PvP should be, I think you're going to be in for a rude awakening sooner or later. Players who drive other players out of the game are killing the game. And sooner or later, either the game's owners are going to kick you out (as well as anyone else that is actively trying to drive other players off), or the game will die.

 

Seriously, it's like you think that there's some magical wall that makes anything valid in PvP. If you think that corpse-camping is fine, why not take it an extra step and DDOS them? That'll keep them from coming back to the fight, right? How about doxing them, so that they're too busy dealing with death threats to play? Maybe going to their house and breaking their computer with a sledge-hammer?

 

It's all fair game... it's just PvP, right? ;)

 

The point is, there's lines of good gamesmanship. You kill someone, fine. That's part of the game. Teabagging them is just being juvenile, and serves nothing but your own ego. Camping them is fundamentally denying them their ability to play. These are beyond good gamesmanship.

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here we go, LEARN HOW TO SEPARATE RL FROM A FANTASY GAME.  This is not a little league game.  It is a PvP game.  In a pvp game you have t bagging corpse camping, crap talking  pking PvPer's.  If you don't like these players get your little group of fluffy friends together and hunt them down.  Run them out of the game....Quit trying to change the game to meet your own agenda and what you feel is just.

 

You're far too polarized and entrenched in your view for this discussion, so I'll end with this last reply:

 

There are plenty of people that are just fine with a game where they could possibly be slaughtered, stripped of belongings, and have their castle reduced to rubble before their eyes. They're just not fine with the unsportsman-like behavior you advocate; behavior that has absolutely nothing to do with competition, PVP or the very binary casual/hardcore dichotomy you seem to wrestle with. Your replies are akin to throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

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The following link seems appropriate:

http://imgur.com/gallery/6SEAD

 

Anonymity results in aggressive interactions, whether it's angry old man racism in Yahoo comments, teen trash talk in YouTube, or corpse camping and trash talk in MMOs.

 

It's interesting that griefing is considered normal (if in poor taste) in comment sections and first person shooters, but a moral crime in MMOs.

 

I think you could break 'griefing' into a few main areas:

 

1. Spamming verbal abuse

2. Rez killing

3. Spawn camping

 

We won't know till we play, but CF seems like it has mechanics already to prevent the worst of that. All of the social and much of the economic game can occur in the EK, without fear of being ganked. I'd imagine chronic verbal harassment would flag someone (i.e. more than a 'u suk, l2p') to weed out the guy that sends you curse filled tells for 6 straight hours. Or a block list or some such.

 

Spawn camping would only be relevant if your side has basically lost already, or is an indication that your team is not getting its poorly made socks together and properly defending a resource (spawn point).

 

Rez killing: If you are solo running to recover loot from your corpse, that's on you. If you die in the middle of nowhere, with no team support/guildies nearby, that's on you. Don't run around with weapons/equipment so valuable that they are irreplaceable. Save them for the larger, mass battles where you have a realistic chance of recovering something. It's like going into a bad neighborhood alone with a large sum of cash and getting robbed. You're not going to really go back the next day alone to try and recover it are you? Because if so, who's the real idiot?

 

 

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Crowfall makes this very simple.

If a player does not like full loot FFA type of campaign, they have the option of doing a more restrictive ruleset where you dont loose all your stuff once you die.

This game will cater both to the teabagging pvpers in the dregs, and the more casual pvpers in other rulesets.

 

I see no point arguing over ganking in a videogame.

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 Your corpse-camping someone essentially means that they're completely unable to play the game until you stop.

How about option 3 you hunt me down like a rabid dog and kill me till I quit griefing you?  This is what PvP is about.  It is not about some arbitrary ruleset carefully crafted and disguised to avoid PvP.

 

For the record, I do not t-bag.  I think it is immature.  If done to me I will track someone down and corpse camp them, if allowed, until they pay for a name change or quit the game.

 

You don't like the way someone plays then kill them until they leave ya alone.

 

Also, having different rulesets will not protect anyone.  Anyone, can go to any ruleset they want.  I suggest you stay in your EK if you can't handle PvP...

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AHAHAHAHAHA! :D :D :D

 

That was fun.

 

You mean, and let me understand this cuz, y'know maybe it's me, I'm a little screwed up maybe, but fun how? I mean, fun like clowns? It amused you? It made you happy? Like it's here to frikken amuse you? What do you mean fun? Fun how? How is it fun, rolan?

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The following link seems appropriate:

http://imgur.com/gallery/6SEAD

 

Anonymity results in aggressive interactions, whether it's angry old man racism in Yahoo comments, teen trash talk in YouTube, or corpse camping and trash talk in MMOs.

 

It's interesting that griefing is considered normal (if in poor taste) in comment sections and first person shooters, but a moral crime in MMOs.

 

I think you could break 'griefing' into a few main areas:

 

1. Spamming verbal abuse

2. Rez killing

3. Spawn camping

 

We won't know till we play, but CF seems like it has mechanics already to prevent the worst of that. All of the social and much of the economic game can occur in the EK, without fear of being ganked. I'd imagine chronic verbal harassment would flag someone (i.e. more than a 'u suk, l2p') to weed out the guy that sends you curse filled tells for 6 straight hours. Or a block list or some such.

 

Spawn camping would only be relevant if your side has basically lost already, or is an indication that your team is not getting its poorly made socks together and properly defending a resource (spawn point).

 

Rez killing: If you are solo running to recover loot from your corpse, that's on you. If you die in the middle of nowhere, with no team support/guildies nearby, that's on you. Don't run around with weapons/equipment so valuable that they are irreplaceable. Save them for the larger, mass battles where you have a realistic chance of recovering something. It's like going into a bad neighborhood alone with a large sum of cash and getting robbed. You're not going to really go back the next day alone to try and recover it are you? Because if so, who's the real idiot?

How dare you bring reason to this debate.....They will find fault with you post because they really are more accustomed to WoW Batte ground where they can choose to enter or avoid it. 

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This post needs to be read and reread by you guys....I will paraphrase, this game is not going to be the casual/PvE or a broad audience game.  If you guys do not like this,  get out now.  You are going to be disappointed if for 1 second you think you can get the rules altered to make this game fluffy and caring.  It is not going to happen.

 

 

Furthermore this is a sandbox, If they wanted a themepark, they would have made something like we have had for the past 10 years...If you want hand holding go back to WoW or the other 50 WoW clones.

GW ( His holiness ) has said in a vid that THIS game, yes Crowfall, will be too intense for 80% of the gaming population.   Was he just talking out his butt?  Or, just maybe, he was making an absolutely honest statement to warn ppl about what this game is all about, what the play enviorment will be like.   Intense to me means an adrenaline rush.  Some get it by jumping off cliffs, sky diving, etc.   Some play video games.    IF you are of the personality group that finds aggressive behavior revolting, that takes everything said personally and can easily be offended by things that set you beyond the point where you become one w/ your toon and give it feelings, how do you believe you will fit into that 20% of those that will deem this game "fun"?  

 

EDIT:  this was not directed to nakawe, it was to support his post.   Need to clarify because I know how you gonzos are 

Edited by ellie

Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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GW ( His holiness ) has said in a vid that THIS game, yes Crowfall, will be too intense for 80% of the gaming population.   Was he just talking out his butt?  Or, just maybe, he was making an absolutely honest statement to warn ppl about what this game is all about, what the play enviorment will be like.   Intense to me means an adrenaline rush.  Some get it by jumping off cliffs, sky diving, etc.   Some play video games.    IF you are of the personality group that finds aggressive behavior revolting, that takes everything said personally and can easily be offended by things that set you beyond the point where you become one w/ your toon and give it feelings, how do you believe you will fit into that 20% of those that will deem this game "fun"?  

 

EDIT:  this was not directed to nakawe, it was to support his post.   Need to clarify because I know how you gonzos are 

 

You seem to be working off the assumption that those supporting the behavior nakawe advocates is the 20% and not a subset of it. Even as a subset, is it a subset that the rest of the 20% finds desirable?

 

EDIT: I watched MarkeeDragon and Rerolled's interviews and couldn't find that "80%" thing. Do you have a link to it? If he was talking about the PVP, then I agree, as all data from the first days of UO's Trammel to modern day EVE Online supports such the assertion that only 20% of your playerbase in a sandbox PVP MMO is going to participate in the PVP.

 

Are you saying Gordon's 20% was referring to such things as teabagging, excessive trashtalking and other less-than-sporting displays sometimes exhibited in MMO PVP?

 

If not, then I think most of us are on the same page here, as I don't see anyone in this line of discussion advocating for any change to the actual gameplay itself. If so, then I'd like to hear the statement or see a transcript of it, as I think you may have misunderstood what he was saying.

Edited by buc denizen

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You seem to be working off the assumption that those supporting the behavior he advocates is the 20% and not a subset of it. Even as a subset, is it a subset that the rest of the 20% finds desirable?

Well then perhaps Gordon, since he visits this thread often, will clarify his statement for us.   


Maybe it not about the happy ending. Maybe it's about the story.

RIP Doc Gonzo "to anyone...speak your mind...defend your position...be prepared for an Argument and enjoy the process of the discussion...that's all part of any good Forum experience"

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You seem to be working off the assumption that those supporting the behavior he advocates is the 20% and not a subset of it. Even as a subset, is it a subset that the rest of the 20% finds desirable?

you guys are unbelievable.  Why don't you go read some dev post and familiarize yourselves with the vision/game they are proposing.  Take those blinders off,  Your refusal to accept this reality does not make your dreams and wishes the reality.

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Well, nakawe. Your assumption is just as good as buc's. Without further clarification I'd not dare to claim Gordon vouched either way.

 

Although using general terms like "80% of the gaming population" clearly encompasses every gamer that is either too casual or too gonzoish for a game with PvP at it's core. I have a hard time extrapolating a general claim that he meant the "hardcore, no barriers all in FFA PvP"-crowd the Dregs cater to with the resulting 20% and no other PvP sub audience, especially since I don't see the other campaign rules as being an afterthought.

 

Won't claim that those that favour the Dregs aren't the core audience either (regarding the fact that they were guaranteed in the core).

Edited by Angier

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