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morrolan

Gordon Walton - are you the one who brought us Trammel?

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There is a difference between a griefer/racist/homophobe and competitive pvp.

LOL. I'm surprised there haven't been any breaking news on CNN regarding griefers. Those dirty little sheens are up there with racists and homophobes, huh.


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What's this thread about?

 

Oh, someone dies over and over and over and over and over and over and wants someone banned for it? kk. This thread went nuts.

 

It's almost as if i paid people to come here and support my post. :D 

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I bet you actual caltrops and bullets are cheaper than stinking dice these days. :D

 

Hmm, after about 5 or so minutes of research it looks like tire caltrops are more expensive but regular caltrops and low caliber ammo are cheaper. Too many variables to tell, but I can tell you that after that little googling spree, I'm almost certain my name is now on a list somewhere. :) 

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We've spent 2 or 3 pages talking about it. 

Yea but that's like your opinion man.

 

Gotta let the bullies do their thing otherwise they'll feel bullied, would be a real shame if bullies weren't tolerated.

 

I know gaming forums tend to be a lot more toxic than the actual game communities but what's with pvp heavy games being extremely toxic from the get-go? I hope the game turns out more like swg and less like youtube comments.

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I know gaming forums tend to be a lot more toxic than the actual game communities but what's with pvp heavy games being extremely toxic from the get-go? I hope the game turns out more like swg and less like youtube comments.

 

Reading youtube comments isn't required for watching youtube videos. Just like gaming forums aren't required for to get griefed in game. Sounds like it's going to happen whether you read the forums or not.

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That's odd to see from a member of KGB, because that's a guild I know for a fact is made of people that understand PVP and, more importantly, understand the difference between hardcore PVP and douchebaggery. 

 

I'm not sure if ellie, nak and their ilk are being intentionally obtuse because they realize their stance is tenuous at best or if they really do not understand the issue being presented. Much like your statement above, they are arguing a red herring. 

 

The people they are arguing against - actually, rallying against - aren't even remotely suggesting anything should be casual, gonzo, low risk or without loss. No one has lashed out at the game mechanics or at PVPers. 

 

The aspect that they have issue with is the disrespect and poor sportsmanship. 

 

But no matter how many people clearly explain their problem is with the type of behavior certain people bring to MMO PVP, an activity they have clearly stated they are otherwise looking forward to participating in, the argument gets thrown back about how they are fluffy gonzos afraid to lose their pixels. 

 

KGB has always been great at the meta game. They've been a leader at both PVP and the propaganda around it.They can trashtalk like the best of them, but have always done it on the guild/official forums and in the circles where appropriate. I have never seen them teabag a kill or talk crap to someone they just ganked. I doubt that's their style now either. 

I think this is why Senor Corona had such an easy time convincing me last night that it was silly to keep posting here. I know these guys are all intelligent and experienced gamers and that they perfectly understand the issue and the different 'sides' of the issue. The stumbling block, IMHO, is they some of them so badly want to re-live what they remember as being "good times" back in The Day, that they willfully refuse to give up on the push to get it. Then, to top it off, for whatever reason, they've allowed their 'reality' to stop at their keyboard/mouse when it comes to gaming.

 

I think something that some of these 'hardcore' PvP'ers haven't really considered is that it is totally possible that Todd and Gordon detest these players' poor behavior as much as we do (or more!). I mean, these guys are the **reason** Trammel was REQUIRED in UO, to try and save a sinking ship. These toxic (heh) playstyles kill PvP games, and Todd & Gordon are in the business of making PvP games. Interesting to think about, to me at least.


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I think something that some of these 'hardcore' PvP'ers haven't really considered is that it is totally possible that Todd and Gordon detest these players' poor behavior as much as we do (or more!). 

 

And not just Todd and Gordon, methinks.

 

"Mr. Koster has experienced the fury that has long lurked in parts of the game community. In the late 1990s, when he was the lead designer for Ultima Online, a pioneering multiplayer web-based game, he received anonymous hate messages for making seemingly small changes in the game.  After an electrical fire at his house, someone posted a note on Mr. Koster’s personal website saying he wished the game designer had died in the blaze."
 
 
Again, as an optimist, I think Crowfall is on its way to making most of this discussion obsolete.  The griefer lives in the cracks of the game mechanics.  If all that is left to them is a shack on a barren EK and their name on 20,000 /ignore lists and 20,000 EK ban lists - what can they do?  PK people on Dregs?  People who are combative, well-armed and eager to plunder the griefer's corpse?  Good luck making these types /cry and /rage quit.
Edited by cemya

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I totally feel that everyone is talking past each other in this thread.

 

But, thats just me.

 

It's not just you.  I count about six different conversations going on, heh.  People also do not seem to have common definitions.  But people don't want to let a thread die where they might finally learn why they lost their jobs as UO guides.

Edited by cemya

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Wow, I take a little break and the MMO culture wars get heated up!

 

On one hand you have the most competitive players who will usually talk obscene amounts of trash, but at the same time the larger majority of gamers do not want to be verbally abused. 

 

Make a game too soft and you won't interest the best players, make it too hard and you can't sustain it because most people don't enjoy just getting insulted all day, it's a tough balancing act. 

 

In the end this game will probably have a typical code of conduct for games in the present.  I don't think people will be able to run around calling each other whatever they want and that is for the best of the game.

 

To expect anything different is naive. 

 

Yes, there will be a code of conduct, like any game has, and it will be enforced.

 

A couple of thoughts here, sorry if they're a little slow in coming.


 

While I agree that UO was largely traveling in uncharted waters, saying that it had no precedent, and no way to predict players' behavior, is wrong. UO (and EQ after it) was an evolution of gameplay that existed in MUDs (text-based "Multi-User Dungeons"). There were MUDs before UO came out that had player-vs-player content, and even a few that had permadeath. It should come as no surprise to anyone at this point that there was a small but very visible group of players in those MUDs who sought out other players to kill - and, even there, the new players were the biggest targets. People who didn't understand the rules yet, couldn't possibly be any threat to their attacker, and who the attacker could destroy or even extinguish from the game.

 

Later MUDs with a PvP aspect gave "newbie protection," which did nothing but move the bar of where and when the griefers laid in wait for victims. When one player has +5 plate armor, a legendary weapon, and a 20-level advantage over his victim wearing +1 chain and low-end weaponry, the results were, and are, obvious and predictable.

 

Killing other players is one thing. Attempting to destroy any enjoyment in the game is another. The latter is ultimately destructive for the game itself, because every game - every game - requires fresh blood from new players. If you've got a portion of the player base that is extinguishing the new players and driving them away, the game will die.

 

First to your point about Muds, all I'll say is that scale changes everything, just like in human society.

 

Next, people intentionally running off other players through abuse is not something we want.  And in fact, anyone who wants a vibrant game to play in should not want this.  New customers are both hard and expensive to get for all games.  If you are into PvP, what you should want is serious competition so that you'll know your victories are meaningful, and you should be fostering a high level of competitiveness especially among your opponents.

Note I'm not saying you can't kill people, it's a PvP-centric game for heavens sake!  Players attacking players, and having winners and losers is core to that experience.

But using game mechanics with the express stated intention to make other players quit is not going to be something we're excited about, unless you've decided to personally financially support the entire game to use it as a playpen.  And even that won't work in the long run.
 

 

I don't see why we need for an "us" or "them" mentality. I'll gladly log into PvP with any of your guys for as long as I am having fun.

We're all looking forward to playing the same video game. This thread exists because of the Trammel debate. Ergo, the actions of people in MMO PvP has consequences for the game's longevity.

 

And I will repeat what I said just above. Neither Todd nor Gordon will EVER get on here and say "Okay guys! We hope to hear death threats and descriptive plans for sexual assault being sent back and forth anytime you aren't using some kind of character animation to simulate a variety of mortifying insults! Oh, and we've put in a mechanic that makes it easier for you to follow and harass those weak-sister dummies who got lucky and spawned too far away for you to kill them again!"

 

I think GW is referring to the andrenaline-laced combat actions between character in game. NOT the various negative behaviors players bring in on their own.  :rolleyes:

 

Exactly, the game should be very emotionally and psychologically intense for all involved, that's different than actively trying to make people quit the game, and/or stepping ourside the rules of conduct, or into real-life harassment/actionable speech/behaviors.

 

See following post, I had this monster post ready and I got past the limit of multi-quote!


Gordon Walton, ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.  [Rules of Conduct]

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

 

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All I want to do is ruin fun and make people quit the game.

 

I hope you are joking.  If not, you and those who think like this don't belong here.

 

Don't worry 1 bit about that.  You can go hang in your EK where we cannot ruin YOUR good thing.  I am so glad they make EK's  Hopefully the fluffy extreme will stay there.  I hope the dreg extreme roams all campaigns,  I love killing these guys.  Getting a L33t Gansta to quit the game is even more fun then getting people like ole toxy here to quit.

 

Man is this game gonna be fun....Tears flying everywhere.  I think I just had one of those Game/RL attachment moments,  I was filled with so much joy just thinking of this, I peed a little bit.

 

Again, if your stated purpose for playing is to ruin others experiences, you are not going to find our game the right place to be.  If you said you wanted to dominate the battle space with your superior strategies and skills, great!  If you won't be happy until you are sitting in the game with everyone you think is not like you gone, then you aren't really interested in the competition.

 

The people here who are advocating that cyberbullying be allowed aren't even hardcore themselves, they are just in love with the idea of being hardcore. 

 

This is 2015, you can actually be jailed for what you say on the internet so to believe a game should allow people to say whatever they want to each other, in today's climate where that is mostly unacceptable in society, is just straight up foolish. 

 

I believe in free speech, I think everyone should be able to say what they want and everyone else should be intelligent enough to react to it rationally.  But while I believe that I do not force that view onto others. 

 

Also it's the same people in this thread making the same mistakes I see them make all of the time in so many other threads.  ACE will say something that insinuates that their game is not made for everyone, and people will go assuming what that may or may not mean without any real foundation to make that assumption on. 

 

If they say something like "our game will be too rough for 80% of the gamer crowd", that does not mean anything until they elaborate as to which way they mean that.  If you start making assumptions about what that means well they are just assumptions not gospel. 

 

There are limits to speech in real life (far too many in my USA-centric view), but within a game environment there are definite speech and action limits, which we will enforce.  At the same time, we want players to take responsibility for moderating their own experience.  If you don't like someones speech, mute them.  If someone breaks the code of conduct, report them then mute them.  If you won't mute them you become part of the problem too.  If someone kills you, put them on your KOS list, find a way to ambush them, refuse them service in your EK, that is all part of the game.

 

The problem with pvp in just about every single game currently on the market is there is no accountability. Some anonymous azswipe can harrass/gank/kill steal/whatever to their heart's content and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it as the anonymous jackazs will just retreat to some safehold or just log out...and there is nothing you can do...ever...to stop it.

 

I heard a week or so back, in reference to social media, what 'trash talk' is missing that is present irl (i believe it was in reference to the twitter crap in reference to his daughter)...'...the piece that social media is missing when it comes to trash talk is the punch in the face...' the same goes for mmo worlds. There typically isn't a way for players to hold another player accountable. There are no rule sets, there is no code, that can 'protect' players from another's bad behavior.

 

We need, especially in an open world, the ability to police ourselves...whether that is hunting an individual down to reinforcing a point, or making sure players/groups of players who routinely 'cross the line' can only play under the utmost duress. Unfortunately, most of the c4r3be4rtastic video game masses are terrified of this notion as they are completely unwilling to do what is necessary to ensure they can play how they think they are entitled. More unfortunately, the 'gankers' in this environment represent the lowest common denominator of the pvp world...they can't stand on their own and rely upon hacks or bad game design to give them an advantage over those who simply arent interested in that play style. The truth is, they players...the ones who give pvp players a bad name, typically do not fare very well in an open environment...they do their thing (pick on the weak/under leveled/under gear), then the get curb stomped over and over and over again as that individual gets their more geared/leveled friends/guildmates to even up the score.

 

 

Give us the tools and the ability to do whatever we want...to police ourselves...and then get out of the way.

 

You should start a thread on this.  The next generation of tools to empower players to moderate their experience is something I'd love to innovate on.

 

Final words on this, for now at least.

 

In a fair fight (which rarely happens), the victors should salute the fallen, because it could have been a reversed situation.

 

In the norm, which is the unfair fight (surprise, superior numbers, favorable terrain, vastly better tactics), it's pretty much a slaughter.  The other side never had a chance because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong stuff.  Again, I admire those that recognize their fortune and are magnanimous in victory, rather than use the moment to feel a little bigger by running down the defeated, who in fact never had a chance in the situation.

 

Our goal as players, if we want an evolving competitive landscape, is to actually educate the defeated on how and why they lost.  Do we really want them to quit until there is no one to play against, or do we want real competition?

 

I'm actually more more worried that some of our PvP'ers are actually only interested in winning which is why they seek out the weak (i.e. the game is only enjoyable to them if there is a never ending supply of people they can easily dominate), and in fact may be more likely to quit if they can't consistently win due to the more robust competitive landscape we're working towards.

 

I'm pleased to see lots of passion from all of you here, and while I realize it's hard not get personal about it, but let's strive keep the discussion (overall, not just this thread) focused on what will make this game sustainable, i.e. a game you would want to play for years, that allows for a diversity of player types and emergent gameplay.


Gordon Walton, ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.  [Rules of Conduct]

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

 

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Wow, I take a little break and the MMO culture wars get heated up!

 

 

Yes, there will be a code of conduct, like any game has, and it will be enforced.

 

 

First to your point about Muds, all I'll say is that scale changes everything, just like in human society.

 

Next, people intentionally running off other players through abuse is not something we want.  And in fact, anyone who wants a vibrant game to play in should not want this.  New customers are both hard and expensive to get for all games.  If you are into PvP, what you should want is serious competition so that you'll know your victories are meaningful, and you should be fostering a high level of competitiveness especially among your opponents.

 

Note I'm not saying you can't kill people, it's a PvP-centric game for heavens sake!  Players attacking players, and having winners and losers is core to that experience.

 

But using game mechanics with the express stated intention to make other players quit is not going to be something we're excited about, unless you've decided to personally financially support the entire game to use it as a playpen.  And even that won't work in the long run.

 

 

 

Exactly, the game should be very emotionally and psychically intense for all involved, that's different than actively trying to make people quit the game, and/or stepping ourside the rules of conduct, or into real-life harassment/actionable speech/behaviors.

 

See following post, I had this monster post ready and I got past the limit of multi-quote!

Thanks for the response, it is much appreciated. 

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Gordon Im just here to kill lots of people.

 

P2C

 

P.S. I only violate forums TOSes not in-games TOSes


You are so incredibly helpful, CYT. I don't know how I ever managed to do anything before we met. I was just bumbling my way through life, all lost-like. Thank you. My blessing cup runneth over.

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