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dubanka

no 'fire hose healer' but still required healer

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I was actually looking forward to an environment where a dedicated healer was not a requirement...

 

i'm currently not seeing it.

 

we have replaced the 'dedicated cleric' with a 'dedicated medic'.

 

i'm not sure how many other archetypess will have healing abilities similar in nature to the legionnaire, but...as is the healing provided by a legionnaire in the hunger dome environment is pretty much a requirement. I'm not sure what we're seeing right now is that much different than the current status quo...less efficient for sure, but not that much different from a group dynamic perspective.

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Agreed. I find it a bit disapointing. Not having dedicated healers was a key feature and I'm saddened to see them take what appear to be steps back from this statement with the aforementioned archetypes.

 

I would prefer that every Archetype have some form of unique healing spell(A LA Anarchy Online in which almost every class had some kind of way to heal themselves or friends.)

 

Some examples of potential heals:

1. Generic Single Target Heal

2. Generic Single Target Heal over Time

3. Generic Group Heal

4. Generic Group Heal over Time

5. Single Target Heal that also damages adjacent enemies.

6. Heal that provides Defense Buff.

7. Heal that provides Offense Buff.

8. Heal that Bounces from ally to ally.

9. Heal that Bounces from Ally to Enemy to Ally and so on.

10. Heal that regenerates more the lower hp the target is.

11. Heal that sacrifices your own HP

12. Heal that steals HP from a specific enemy.

13. Heal that gives Lifesteal

 

and on and on,

 

I feel they went with a rather generic option.

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i'm not sure how many other archetypess will have healing abilities similar in nature to the legionnaire, but...as is the healing provided by a legionnaire in the hunger dome environment is pretty much a requirement. I'm not sure what we're seeing right now is that much different than the current status quo...less efficient for sure, but not that much different from a group dynamic perspective.

Elaborate. As it is, I've been in groups without Legionnaires and we do fine. If you're having trouble against groups with them, sounds like you might need to reevaluate your strategy or tactics.

The are core though, as even ACE themselves have said the most balanced and best groups are ones with one of each archetype.

 

I would prefer that every Archetype have some form of unique healing spell(A LA Anarchy Online in which almost every class had some kind of way to heal themselves or friends.)

Because everyone having a self heal is really not generic. Guild Wars 2 did this and it's awful.


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Because everyone having a self heal is really not generic. Guild Wars 2 did this and it's awful.

 

In execution, I agree it wasn't the greatest.  In concept I loved it.  If ACE decides they want to take a stab at that and perhaps make it work, then I'd be happy to give them a chance at the very least. 

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elaborate: a group with a leg has a competitive advantage over a group without one simply because they can regen hps faster both in combat and out of combat 

 

i'm sure you can 'do fine' without one in the hunger dome in some scenarios, but in general it would typically be preferable to have a leg in the group simply for their healing capabilities...especially once you push inside the keep.

 

for sustained combat, the ability to regen hps faster than  your opponent(s) is a huge combat multiplier.

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I wouldn't really call the legionnaire a dedicated healer... he doesn't spam a bunch of diff heals all of the time.  He is also a champ that can kind of be in the fray of it. 

 

You can look to mobas to get an idea of how the combat might play out once the game has more meat... I wouldn't base things off of a pre-alpha combat test in which kits aren't very tuned yet and you have a very limited set of archetypes to pick from.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Because everyone having a self heal is really not generic. Guild Wars 2 did this and it's awful.

Did I say Self Heal? Have a look at that nice list I wrote and point out the words "Self" and "Heal". I said Unique healing spell, as in each Archetype has a single, thematically consistent, healing spell. For example Confessors might get "Purifying Flames" Which damages an ally for 1,000 damage but heals said ally for 300 per second for x seconds, meaning its strong when near full life but incredibly risky at low life.

 

And having Dedicated Healers isn't awful and generic, ok, yeah, sure, 100% with you on that one, buddy.

 

I'm afraid I have to use this example again in less than a dat. "A game developer gave me a bicycle but it was actually poop in the shape of a bicycle; Now I hate bicycles."

 

You should hate the poop, the developer and the game, but not the bicycle- which is the abstract concept of every class having some kind of sustain spell.

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elaborate: a group with a leg has a competitive advantage over a group without one simply because they can regen hps faster both in combat and out of combat 

So ACE set out a role for an Archetype and it fills that role. I'm not seeing a problem.

Sure it is an advantage because he's healing. Like I pointed out before, the best groups are ones with one of each archetype.

What it sounds like you need to do is focus the legionnaire. He can't heal if he isn't near his group. Also, he needs to keep up his auto attacks to keep up the heal buffs and even then, that heal buff only applies every second or third attack and even THEN that heal only ticks when the person with the buff attacks.

If you can DPS down a Legionnaire or at the very least make him run away from his group, then he can't heal because he's not doing anything.

 

But maybe you think he heals for too much. Okay, I can accept that. That's one thing ACE can take away from this so they can tweak some numbers.


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Did I say Self Heal? Have a look at that nice list I wrote and point out the words "Self" and "Heal". I said Unique healing spell, as in each Archetype has a single, thematically consistent, healing spell. For example Confessors might get "Purifying Flames" Which damages an ally for 1,000 damage but heals said ally for 300 per second for x seconds, meaning its strong when near full life but incredibly risky at low life.

So you're taking away the role of healer and giving it everyone else?

How is having the ability of healing yourself or healing others any different than having one dedicated healer class or a support class that can give out some heals? Now instead of one guy handing out the occasional heal, in the case of Legionnaire, we've got every unpleasant person on the map spam healing each other? Why?

Sounds like homogenisation to me, which is never good.


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So you're taking away the role of healer and giving it everyone else?

How is having the ability of healing yourself or healing others any different than having one dedicated healer class or a support class that can give out some heals? Now instead of one guy handing out the occasional heal, in the case of Legionnaire, we've got every unpleasant person on the map spam healing each other? Why?

Sounds like homogenisation to me, which is never good.

Oh thats just being dishonest. There are a million was to balance healing spells, from cooldown, to raw power, to situations they can be used in. Saying they are spamming healing is you being intentionally dishonest about thenpotential for such a system because you encounted one you didn't like before.

 

Taking away the role of healer and giving it to no one. Healing should be powerful, yes, but not because it provides a heal. It should be powerful because of it's secondary effects. Another example would be a healing spell that damages all enemies within melee range of the target, making it more effective the bigger the dog pile and so on.

 

How is it different? Well for one you don't need to have a certain % of the community play a certain class just because that class can heal. Have you played like, ANY, mmos? Groups that lack healers are AlWAYS at a massive disadvantage in every single game. Whether or not you managed to overcome that in a game or two is irrelevent. Forcing people to play a role theh don't like just so their team has a chance is much worse than slight homogenisation imo.

 

As I stated earlier, obviously people would not be spamming spells, combat would be pointless if that were the case. Thenmain objective is to eliminate the healer class as it causes major problems in every pvp mmo game it exists in. The only times I've seen healing be interesting was Anarchy Online and Dota2.

 

Homogenisation, is a small price tonpay for better gameplay and balance.

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There are a million was to balance healing spells, from cooldown, to raw power, to situations they can be used in.

Right, like how the Legionnaire is balanced in that you have a cooldown on your main heal and you have to be dealing melee damage to apply your heal buff.

 

How is it different? Well for one you don't need to have a certain % of the community play a certain class just because that class can heal. Have you played like, ANY, mmos? Groups that lack healers are AlWAYS at a massive disadvantage in every single game. Whether or not you managed to overcome that in a game or two is irrelevent. Forcing people to play a role theh don't like just so their team has a chance is much worse than slight homogenisation imo.

No one is forcing anyone to play anything though. I don't see what you're getting at.

Yes in other mmos you're at a disadvantage if you don't have a healer. Other mmos are also balanced around pve content where you will be taking constant or heavy damage, in which case a dedicated healer is necessary. Translating that into pvp is what ACE is trying to avoid. Handing everyone a heal just so we don't have classes that "nobody wants to play" isn't fixing anything, it's homogenising the gameplay and would be going against what ACE is trying to avoid, which is heals flying everywhere. Some archetypes are made to fill specific roles, and some people enjoy playing these specific roles. The Legionnaire is one of them, which is a support melee class with a little healing attached.


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If i had to be honest, i completely disagree. If anything, my personal opinion is that the Legionnaire is heavily underwhelming at this point. Aside from scatter horde, his CC is minimal, he has a heal he can't spam, and while it helps, its about all hes got. That and being able to stand in front of a friendly confessor to soak damage. All in all, i don't see him as a "OP dedicated healer" in the least. He has 1 heal that he can use like every 20 seconds. And its not even spectacular. Id much rather have a knight in place of a Legionnaire on my team in the current state.


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Chalcitis - A Treasure Hunting Guild. All Your Artifacts Are Belong To Us

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Healing and large scale pvp go hand-in-hand. I'm not sure why they thought it would be different in this game. You either have interesting sustained fights, or short fights that eventually become mundane as the victor is decided by who strikes first or simply by who has more.

 

You can easily balance healing for pvp for those naysayers that think it's impossible.

 

Pretty interested to see what the healing options are on the specialization / disciplines.

Edited by helix

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I'd like to see damage reduction buffs instead of healing.

Makes more sense then in regards to the legionnaire rallying his teammates during a fight, as the current implementation is more effective outside of fights.

 

Means then campfires and other sources of patching yourself up are a real requirement too, rather than running away and having your legionnaire just tick your health up so you can go for round two.


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I think healing is fine the way it is. The main reason you want a Legionnaire right now is that his heal allows you to farm PvE mobs faster for gear. You don't have to rely on campfires and base regeneration because typically his heals are enough to keep people up as you're bouncing from mob to mob.

 

However efficiency in farming PvE mobs isn't what Crowfall is going to be in the end. The Legionnaire in PvP combat isn't mandatory by any means and I don't think the in-combat heals are overpowered. Sure they're nice but it's nothing crazy or mandatory by any means. We've only been running 1 legionnaire in a 5 man group and had a lot of success.

Edited by Zybak

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Just hate that legionnaite healing and buffing is essentially playing whack-a-mole: CD is up, heals for everyone! Where is the skill? Why Legionnaires? The only move in the Legionnaires' kit that doesn't seem to fit or make sense.

 

I just hate the current buff and healing mechanics, where it's essentially fire-and-forget whack-a-mole. Didn't they say that all abilities woild be aimed? I wouldn't mind if they added some mechanics to make buffs and and healing more meaningful and involved, but the current a trend for buffs in MMO's is the fire-and-forgettable model.

Edited by RKNM

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Just hate that legionnaite healing and buffing is essentially playing whack-a-mole: CD is up, heals for everyone! Where is the skill? Why Legionnaires? The only move in the Legionnaires' kit that doesn't seem to fit or make sense.

 

I just hate the current buff and healing mechanics, where it's essentially fire-and-forget whack-a-mole. Didn't they say that all abilities woild be aimed? I wouldn't mind if they added some mechanics to make buffs and and healing more meaningful and involved, but the current a trend for buffs in MMO's is the fire-and-forgettable model.

It may just be a legionnaire thing.  Perhaps druids will have a stronger, directed heal.

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*talks about healers* *hasn't seen Druid abilities yet*

 

Let's not talk about archetypes the game is lacking while we've only seen 4/13 of the possible classes, not to mention any of the Disciplines which might enable healing. Now, if Druid comes out and she's over/underwhelming then that can be a conversation we have, but talking about it now while there's only one support archetype in the game, and who seems to be intended more a 'buff the whole group' support rather than a heal-y type support feels a bit hasty.

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Right, like how the Legionnaire is balanced in that you have a cooldown on your main heal and you have to be dealing melee damage to apply your heal buff.

 

No one is forcing anyone to play anything though. I don't see what you're getting at.

Yes in other mmos you're at a disadvantage if you don't have a healer. Other mmos are also balanced around pve content where you will be taking constant or heavy damage, in which case a dedicated healer is necessary. Translating that into pvp is what ACE is trying to avoid. Handing everyone a heal just so we don't have classes that "nobody wants to play" isn't fixing anything, it's homogenising the gameplay and would be going against what ACE is trying to avoid, which is heals flying everywhere. Some archetypes are made to fill specific roles, and some people enjoy playing these specific roles. The Legionnaire is one of them, which is a support melee class with a little healing attached.

Of course no one is forcing me to, but competitive players like myself(i'm dure you've met our kind before) feel compelled to play in the most efficient way available because that gives us the higher chance of winning. Eliminating the healing class would increase strategic diversity exponentially. Lets imagine two games with 4 classes. One has a dedicated healer the other doesnt.

 

In the first game which does have dedicated healer, its very efficient to have 1 healer, but more than that is useless, ergo the possible group setups are (3×3×3×1) The 3 represents the other three classes and the 1 represents the healer class. Essentially there are 27 distinct group set ups, however since the order of the group doesn't matter there are actually less unique parties since A-B-A-H is equivalent to A-A-B-H and B-A-A-H so theres closer to like 9 viable group set ups. Compare this to game 2 where there are no healer classes you get (4x4x4x4) or in otherwords over 200 distinct party set ups(less when you consider order doesn't matter)

 

This has nothing to do with Legionairres, I'm talking about healing classes in general. Saying that the Legionaire is balanced because "Lol cooldown" is so incredibly narrowminded and shortsight I can only assume that this is your first PvP game. Look, the mere fact that the legionaire can heal gives it an attractive advantage over other classes that reduces strategic diversity. You would have to nerf healing to pointless levels to remove that aspect of the game. This has been true in hundreds, if not thousands of games over the years so there is very little grounds to argue against it outside a few exceptions.

 

You're oversimplifying my solution in a dishonest way. I'm not just handing out a heal to everyone. I want every class to have a mechanically unique, Thematically consistent and balanced "support" spell. Whether thats a heal or not is neither here bor there. Yes, handing out heals would be homogenising the gameplay, but thats not what I'm suggesting. And having dedicated healing classes homogenises the gameplay far more than everyone having some kind of support/heal spell.

 

I really am convinced that you haven't played many pvp games, dedicated healers are cancer in these games and waving your hands saying "Ace will get it right" doesn't give me a lot of confidences when there a dozens upon dozens of examples within the last decade where people got it wrong.

 

"Heals flying everywhere" again with the dishonesty? Or is it lack of critical capacity? As time goes on I'm inclined to assume the latter. Heals wouldn't be flying everywhere because A:They could heal your enemies, B: Not all heals are useful in every situation and C: theres a million ways to balance spells.

 

Just hate that legionnaite healing and buffing is essentially playing whack-a-mole: CD is up, heals for everyone! Where is the skill? Why Legionnaires? The only move in the Legionnaires' kit that doesn't seem to fit or make sense.

 

I just hate the current buff and healing mechanics, where it's essentially fire-and-forget whack-a-mole. Didn't they say that all abilities woild be aimed? I wouldn't mind if they added some mechanics to make buffs and and healing more meaningful and involved, but the current a trend for buffs in MMO's is the fire-and-forgettable model.

The legionaires gameplay pattern is quite dull I agree.

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