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dubanka

no 'fire hose healer' but still required healer

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So ACE set out a role for an Archetype and it fills that role. I'm not seeing a problem.

Sure it is an advantage because he's healing. Like I pointed out before, the best groups are ones with one of each archetype.

What it sounds like you need to do is focus the legionnaire. He can't heal if he isn't near his group. Also, he needs to keep up his auto attacks to keep up the heal buffs and even then, that heal buff only applies every second or third attack and even THEN that heal only ticks when the person with the buff attacks.

If you can DPS down a Legionnaire or at the very least make him run away from his group, then he can't heal because he's not doing anything.

 

But maybe you think he heals for too much. Okay, I can accept that. That's one thing ACE can take away from this so they can tweak some numbers.

 

/shrug. only point i was making is that, at least by what we see now (which very well could be dramatically differently 9 mos from now...i do realize this is largely still 'does this poorly made socks work as designed' testing), you still have a borderline requirement for the healing support archetype in the group.

 

I wouldn't really call the legionnaire a dedicated healer... he doesn't spam a bunch of diff heals all of the time.  He is also a champ that can kind of be in the fray of it. 

 

You can look to mobas to get an idea of how the combat might play out once the game has more meat... I wouldn't base things off of a pre-alpha combat test in which kits aren't very tuned yet and you have a very limited set of archetypes to pick from.

 

i didn't call it a dedicated healer...i called it a dedicated medic...he may not 'spam' a bunch of heals per say, but it's always cycling...hits 3 and 5 each put out a heal and working the ghot everyone time it cycles. Again, obviously, when the game has more meat we'll see how it's really intended...my only point was that the current implementation seems somewhat counter to the design intent stated many moons ago.

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i didn't call it a dedicated healer...i called it a dedicated medic...he may not 'spam' a bunch of heals per say, but it's always cycling...hits 3 and 5 each put out a heal and working the ghot everyone time it cycles. Again, obviously, when the game has more meat we'll see how it's really intended...my only point was that the current implementation seems somewhat counter to the design intent stated many moons ago.

That point doesn't seem very relevant though, as you could say the same thing about the hunger dome in general, but we know the hunger dome is not the vision for the game.

 

We've been told multiple times that they are testing different types of abilities, many of which will be changed or moved to other archetypes and stuff...


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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That point doesn't seem very relevant though, as you could say the same thing about the hunger dome in general, but we know the hunger dome is not the vision for the game.

 

We've been told multiple times that they are testing different types of abilities, many of which will be changed or moved to other archetypes and stuff...

And we are giving feedback that we don't like the current implementation and why.

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Legionnaire is mandatory at least for now. Mobile regen is simply way too imporant not to have - holy trinity alive and well in the hungerdome.

 

Against a full-premade with VOIP and focus fire it doesn't do much, but not having one drops your general farming efficiency into the basement.

Edited by jacobin

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In the first game which does have dedicated healer, its very efficient to have 1 healer, but more than that is useless, ergo the possible group setups are (3×3×3×1) The 3 represents the other three classes and the 1 represents the healer class. Essentially there are 27 distinct group set ups, however since the order of the group doesn't matter there are actually less unique parties since A-B-A-H is equivalent to A-A-B-H and B-A-A-H so theres closer to like 9 viable group set ups. Compare this to game 2 where there are no healer classes you get (4x4x4x4) or in otherwords over 200 distinct party set ups(less when you consider order doesn't matter)

 

This is sort of the vision that games had when they started to look into solutions that did not require a dedicated healer.  While there are many people who enjoy dedicated healers, and playing them, the game usually gets balanced around it.  Which means that such healing becomes integral, the focal point of a group, much like the quote above.  Mix and match anything else you want in there, but you must have this.  That's the thing a lot of people have a problem with.  Gameplay becomes more about your 'protect the healer' strategy, much as the current meta in League of Legends is to protect the ADC. 

 

On a related note, what happens when people begin to pick on that?  I'm reminded of a bane we won in Shadowbane against a superior force because of this.  Larger fights in Shadowbane were often a battle of attrition, with one team trying to wither another down while they spammed various heals across their party.  But the system only worked because everyone was receiving this non stop blanket of heals.  So... What happens if we make someone immune to healing for a short period of time (Shadow Mantle)?  Naturally, the target liquefies instantly and painfully.  And so we dug in with a defensive group that didn't have extraordinary DPS, instead picking off their healers one at a time with this strategy until they had no healers.  Then they completely collapsed. 

https://youtu.be/YktRElj5iGc?t=62 (Sorry for the quality)

 

That is to say, a superior force that had easily 60-70 more people than we did was forced to retreat because, with their healers down, they could not stand and fight us, even with their overwhelming numbers.  Games centered around such healing are all like this.  There was no other class or role that could have been picked out of their group and removed to cause this effect - only the healers.  So it feels like a crutch, almost. 

 

Now with that being said, I'm on the fence about this; while I completely understand what Potato is saying, Shadowbane did succeed in my mind in making a game where full-time healers were fun, and created a different sort of fight.  In many other PvP games, zergs sort of wash over each other in a matter of seconds.  Your success or failure is determined by who had the best coordination in the moment, and numbers.  While both are obviously important regardless, the nature of the fights in Shadowbane allowed things to slow down enough for more decisions to be made - and to matter.  Which I ultimately appreciated.  As an example... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9JOt3frOnM

 

Either way I'm not sure the Legionaire has the healing capacity to be considered enough of a healer to matter.  Their heals feel enough to be considered a support, and little more.  Sure, if I have more than one in my group, my group is going to be kept a lot healthier than another one - but then think of what it's costing you.  By dropping a Legionaire in that slot, you lose out on potential damage or durability classes instead.  You're forming a group trying to win a battle of attrition, and then we get to the rock paper scissors of; burst beats sustained, sustained beats tanks, tanks beat burst.  I don't think they have nearly enough healing to really change the nature of PvP.  I imagine it's hard to farm and roam for sustained periods of time without them, but that's another discussion.

Edited by NoblesseOblige

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In any large scale pvp game I've played, melees have always needed a strong backbone healer or a lot of "security blanket" abilities to keep them alive and proactive in a fight. Without these things I found most melees are generally (or at least should be)  hesitant to engage in a brawl. This is especially obvious in medium to large scale combat, where the ground / field is littered with aoes, cc, and a host of other things making any melee's butt cheek pucker.

 

If it's shown that leggos and drus are necessary to keep a melee train alive, you're just going to see blobs bringing more of those archetypes.

 

I'm curious to see if devs are willing to go back on their "minimal healing" ideology if it's found that this is indeed the case, and that melees need additional insurance in a fight in the form of more healing (or additional mitigation). I suspect there are a few different ways to introduce this (specializations, discs). However these increase the necessity of picking those aforementioned things and might force players to shun other specializations, disciplines or whole archetypes (which IMO is a horrible idea) in favor of the more survivable and productive archetypes.

Edited by helix

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/shrug. only point i was making is that, at least by what we see now (which very well could be dramatically differently 9 mos from now...i do realize this is largely still 'does this poorly made socks work as designed' testing), you still have a borderline requirement for the healing support archetype in the group.

There are a variety of ways they could avoid the feeling of necessity of a support with healing.  Disciplines could be an excellent resource of in and out of combat healing with the caveat of reducing incoming healing during their use or even as a drawback to their slotting.

 

 

 

As to the topic at hand, I honestly fail to see the problem.  A better balanced group should be better suited to tackle more challenges than one that is unbalanced.  Nobody's talking about how we require initiators/tanks or specialists to control the battlefield or DPS of all variations.  If the real serious concern is that support could become SO required due to the healing as to effectively just repackage the trinity with a new coat of paint, there are methods that can address this.  Multiple healing sources could result in diminishing returns.  The same kind of heal can't stack.  "Mortal" damage that cannot be healed in combat or without first aid (i.e. Campfires) could effectively cap your health during longer fights.  Certain archetypes could have healing reduction debuffs.  Certain debuffs could cause healing skills to cost more mana/resource to the person healing.  You could sustain a saturation debuff because you received too much healing too consistently so all future healing is diminished until the debuff clears on its own or possibly causes other problems rather than reduced healing received.  Large scale is going to be an All Archetypes Required situation.  Smaller fights, skirmishes, brawls, and various special operations very much should see an opportunity for there to be no need of a support that heals, but without a doubt we'll need a solid mix of archetypes during all fights for maximum potential and effect.

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 Multiple healing sources could result in diminishing returns.  The same kind of heal can't stack.  "Mortal" damage that cannot be healed in combat or without first aid (i.e. Campfires) could effectively cap your health during longer fights.  Certain archetypes could have healing reduction debuffs.  Certain debuffs could cause healing skills to cost more mana/resource to the person healing.  You could sustain a saturation debuff because you received too much healing too consistently so all future healing is diminished until the debuff clears on its own or possibly causes other problems rather than reduced healing received.  Large scale is going to be an All Archetypes Required situation.  Smaller fights, skirmishes, brawls, and various special operations very much should see an opportunity for there to be no need of a support that heals, but without a doubt we'll need a solid mix of archetypes during all fights for maximum potential and effect.

 

Honestly?  I think any combination of those ideas would be awesome regardless of this Legionaire/Healer issue.  Complexity in healing beyond managing cool downs and mana would be a welcome change, and I find many of these suggestions to be good ones. 

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TL;DR I'm tired and rambling, heals bad, critical thinking and creative support good.

 

I'd prefer zero healing if it was possible or at least in-combat being less than effective.

 

To me, it is the easy way out when designing roles/abilities. Direct buffs to damage aren't too far behind.

 

If they want combat to last more than a few seconds and require players to think a few steps a head, healing of any sort is not the way to go. While an amazing healer can make or break a team depending on how long they live, it really does limit options.

 

Support is a very open term. Healing is very limiting, regardless if you tack on other offensive/defensive abilities. All healers are support, not all support are healers.

 

Defensive buffs, offensive debuffs, and types of mitigation are what I'd like to see (absorb dmg shields, reduce inc dmg %, attk slows, increase enemy resource costs/cooldowns)

 

Then there is of course CC, but that's a whole other topic.

 

Force the enemy to reconsider blowing their cooldowns after you slap a dmg debuff on them or armor buff. Maybe popping all defensive buffs early and absorbing the enemies burst can pay off, maybe not.

 

The Knight's Block is a good example. Reduce damage for those near, range learn to dodge. It only does good if the enemy attacks and using it at the wrong moment could be painful. Risk/Reward.

 

When popping a heal off, targeted or not, doesn't have much risk unless it comes with some sort of debuff which seems counterproductive in the first place.

 

Instead of a AOE heal for Mr. Horsey, why not a AOE inc dmg debuff. Don't want to take full damage? Stick with your friendlies and contribute, instead of everyone running around in circles. They already gave an armor debuff and a dmg debuff, keep going in that direction and less focus on healing.

 

Or how about Knight, pops an ability that X amount of dmg taken over a 5 sec period is trippled and applied as a shield to friendlies near by. Make everything require critical thinking beyond "Oh my heals up...click."

 
If there aren't any dedicated healers or such abilities, everyone's health is going one direction and it is up to everyone to stop that from happening. Instead of bee line for the guy keeping everyone else a live.
 
With this, combat could be a decent length of time and require players to think ahead and plan the right moment to debuff/buff themselves and allies by anticipating or reacting to what the enemy is doing. Instead of, "When I get low, heal me back instantly!"
 
Depending on Disciplines and Promotions, the "need" for a particular archetype or abilities could hopefully decrease making many viable options. Much like a MOBA or whatever is popular these days. Each character picked by one team has to be considered when choosing for the other, instead of "heal, dps, tank, profit."
 
I wouldn't mind most/all Archetypes having a few debuffs/buffs that prolonged and enhanced the combat experience. Just not +50% dmg for 5 sec or whatever which favors burst and limited game play. Or make it count, if the Champ is going beast mode, everyone else toss buffs on him at the risk to themselves in the hopes he rolls a few enemies.
 
As Support Archetypes are rather lacking I hope they are either next on the list or Disciplines/Promos fill in.
 
Obviously they've barely scratched the surface, so it's a bit early to say one way or another, but overtime I hope they stick with "support" in numerous ways and healing as limited as possible.
 
Who knows, maybe there will be some sort of bandage or heal pots to go along with campfires. We need more updates! 
Edited by allein

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Having played mainly Legionnaire for most of the latest test I just want to say that while they do have a heal and could be considered a healer they are far from dedicated healer. The heal they have is on a 20 second CD , it's not a huge heal and the HoT won't out heal for example a Champion's bleed and during those 20 seconds I don't just stand around waiting to throw the next. Other than using their one 20 sec CD heal they move in and out of melee to sunder, apply bleeds, get some regular hits in for rage/self heal group, knocking people away etc, etc. 

 

Basically Leginnaires are about a lot more than just healing even if healing is an important part of what they do.

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I wouldn't really call the legionnaire a dedicated healer... he doesn't spam a bunch of diff heals all of the time.  He is also a champ that can kind of be in the fray of it. 

 

You can look to mobas to get an idea of how the combat might play out once the game has more meat... I wouldn't base things off of a pre-alpha combat test in which kits aren't very tuned yet and you have a very limited set of archetypes to pick from.

 

Glyph plays the Legio very aggressively and has great success being both survivable (usually the last in our group to die) and dealing out the pain.  He has had at least a couple 5 kill matches and is usually at 3+ which is quite respectable for a non-DPS class.  Maybe most Legio players just undervalue the application of bleeds.

 

 

 

If i had to be honest, i completely disagree. If anything, my personal opinion is that the Legionnaire is heavily underwhelming at this point. Aside from scatter horde, his CC is minimal, he has a heal he can't spam, and while it helps, its about all hes got. That and being able to stand in front of a friendly confessor to soak damage. All in all, i don't see him as a "OP dedicated healer" in the least. He has 1 heal that he can use like every 20 seconds. And its not even spectacular. Id much rather have a knight in place of a Legionnaire on my team in the current state.

 

I think that is nuts.  Our nightly groups never include a Knight at this point (and I only played Knight through 1.0 and the first half of 1.1). 

 

 

 

I think healing is fine the way it is. The main reason you want a Legionnaire right now is that his heal allows you to farm PvE mobs faster for gear. You don't have to rely on campfires and base regeneration because typically his heals are enough to keep people up as you're bouncing from mob to mob.

 

However efficiency in farming PvE mobs isn't what Crowfall is going to be in the end. The Legionnaire in PvP combat isn't mandatory by any means and I don't think the in-combat heals are overpowered. Sure they're nice but it's nothing crazy or mandatory by any means. We've only been running 1 legionnaire in a 5 man group and had a lot of success.

 

The heal certainly allows a group to keep moving and farming, instead of sitting around a campfire.  But it's not just the heal - Thundering Herd is extremely useful. 

 

The whole topic is off base because the Legio is not a "Dedicated Healer" - more like "Support with teeth".


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As I recall ACE's comments re: healing, the goal was less about volume of heals and mostly about not having a class that is 100% support and no dps.

 

The legio is aptly described as a medic and yes he is required in any combat group. My biggest quibble with Ren, above, is that I'd say the Legos teeth are rather small. More an annoying guided DoT than real dps.

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I'd prefer zero healing if it was possible or at least in-combat being less than effective.

 

To me, it is the easy way out when designing roles/abilities. Direct buffs to damage aren't too far behind.

 

If they want combat to last more than a few seconds and require players to think a few steps a head, healing of any sort is not the way to go. While an amazing healer can make or break a team depending on how long they live, it really does limit options.

 

I would think this is the complete opposite. Right now you have two options, fight or run. If you're getting pounded on, you're already taking a defensive posture since there's usually no one behind you to keep you alive (except maybe the legion). That seems far more limited to me. Plus fights are over so fast that every encounter feels hollow. You're not reminiscing about the fight that just happened, because nothing really interesting happened. It's like a CoD match quality kill. You kill em, and on to the next, which can eventually get very boring and unsatisfying once the "honey moon" phase is over. 

 

I don't think the game can support a sit at the back and spam type healer, but the game can definitely support a backbone type healer similar to how Age of Conan had it. Where healing is more of a secondary function (you apply your Heal over Type, maybe save your 1 burst heal on a 60s cool down for someone, and focus mostly on offense).

 

One thing I know for sure, in larger scale combat the leggo will either need shorter cool downs on his heal, or you'll need a fck ton more of them.

Edited by helix

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It will be interesting to see what they do with Druid (and Forgemaster if he also can heal). My assumption is that the Druid will also only have a single group heal, on an otherwise ranged caster archetype. I'm envisioning good CC as Druids usually dovetail well with roots and snares...as well as poison DoTs. There are other ways of doing healing besides "fire hose" healing. I actually liked the "wards" of Faxion Online (from 2011) where you put down a visible enchantment on the ground which healed the members of your group while within that area. This might add a different dimension to the pvp which is presently very chaotic and encourages constant movement. Having a druid create a "Spring of Rejuvenation" ....an area of flowers or a pool of water or some such...which gave group members a HoT while standing/being attacked there/or attacking from there...could be fun. 

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I actually liked the "wards" of Faxion Online (from 2011) where you put down a visible enchantment on the ground which healed the members of your group while within that area. This might add a different dimension to the pvp which is presently very chaotic and encourages constant movement. Having a druid create a "Spring of Rejuvenation" ....an area of flowers or a pool of water or some such...which gave group members a HoT while standing/being attacked there/or attacking from there...could be fun.

 

That'd make combat much more about positioning and zoning. While I'm not against it, that seems more the MOBA style. Still, it could probably work.

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That'd make combat much more about positioning and zoning. While I'm not against it, that seems more the MOBA style. Still, it could probably work.

To me...it achieves the goal of avoiding fire hose healing. A temporary but static enchantment area doesn't require you to monitor your groups health bars. The Lego's #6 is a "cast it and forget it" GHoT. The druid could do the same, but add an element of strategy to the table by creating the GHoT area for group members to run to for healing. This creates both advantages and disadvantages...and also creates the potential for counter-wards for dispelling such areas or over writing such areas with DoTs/Snares/Debuffs. The more diverse and varied the combat tactics and pvp...the better IMHO.

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I think as the movement and combat gets cleaned up you will find the healing is not nearly as strong as it looks.

 

Right now that lego heal gets applied and health bars move up more often than net out to no gain. Why? People cant land attacks or pin people down very well right now so the heal goes on and the damage stops as people kite away forever if they want to. Once landing abilities gets more reliable with the responsivness that is lacking I dont think you will see the lego heal being anywhere near as strong as it is now.


 

Rage Quit

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Not a fan of healers here either. I would rather see classes that had opens to share damage, short timed absorb shields perhaps, and people using formations more to have people move from front line to back line etc. 

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