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Albion Online's Stance on Hardcore vs Casual


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https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/25535-Hardcore-vs-Casual-Debate-Our-Stance/

 

I don't agree with everything listed nor some of their design choices, but it's nice when devs put it out there and try to clarify where they want the game to go, which ACE might have to do a bit more once we start learning about the non-combat features and reasons to play the game.

 

Balancing these types of game while still trying to keep the lights on and players coming back is no easy task.

 

AO has a single world with tiers and degrees of risk vs reward, so CF's CW and EKs aren't a good comparison, but still find the dev's view to be worth something.

 

Although the Hardcore/Casual terms are pretty meh at this point. Someone can be "Hardcore" and craft all day or gather logs or be a "Casual" stab you in the back player. Should be more Pro Player Conflict vs Non Conflict or PVP vs PVE as those can include more.

 

For the sake of all the future warning points to come, I hope someone at ACE takes a look at Albion's forum for PVP, with the most creative name ever, "Forum PVP." 

 

Rules:

https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/3312-Forum-PvP-Rules-Updated/

 

The hottest thread in this forum currently is fit for such a place.

 


 

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Albion's pretty bad but I'm playing it because there isn't much else out there atm.

 

Combat is uninspiring, the grind is real, and the world is way too populated. 

 

They have done a pretty good job with the economy/crafting but I wouldn't hold them up as a shining example for anything else.

   

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Their stated stance is irrelevant, the decisions they make and things they implement are what matter. 

 

So far they haven't made a game that has very inspiring pvp...

 

As for albion's forum pvp... people are talking trash in a game with a very low skill-ceiling... it doesn't really do the game any favors in advertising it to any serious pvpers. 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Yeah, talk is cheap. Wildstar promised hardcore, challenging Raiding but the final product was hardly that. 

 

Errr...I disagree strongly with that statement. Wildstar 100% delivered on hardcore challenging PvE content. I was in Enigma, the best raiding guild in the world for Wildstar and it took us a very long time to down a bunch of the bosses. System Daemons in particular took us 41 days and 250 wipes to kill and we were the first people in the world to kill it.

 

Wildstar was a fantastic game for hardcore raiding. It's casual PvE and PvP content that they failed to deliver on.

Edited by Zybak
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Yeah, talk is cheap. Wildstar promised hardcore, challenging Raiding but the final product was hardly that. 

 

Uhh, Wildstar definitely delivered on the hardcore challenging Raiding, too much so that most people were completely broken lol.. not many of us made it past the first real raid instance, a slight wonder that I held on long enough to do it seeing as PvE doesn't really interest me in the slightest. The PVE folks are a weak and meek bunch, as it turns out.

Officer of The BlackHand Order

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Never played it myself just going off of what I heard from the multi game guild was in at the time. Might have been harder at launch but from the sounds of it they went back on their vision a little and made stuff easier. or maybe it was TOO hard or w/e all I know is they were super hyped pre launch then live they kind of just lost interest.

 

Point stands though talk is cheap and the real test is what the product looks like at launch and thereafter.

Edited by pang
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Never played it myself just going off of what I heard from the multi game guild was in at the time. Might have been harder at launch but from the sounds of it they went back on their vision a little and made stuff easier. or maybe it was TOO hard or w/e all I know is they were super hyped pre launch then live they kind of just lost interest.

 

Point stands though talk is cheap and the real test is what the product looks like at launch and thereafter.

 

Going to give a 100% accurate prediction of what happened in regards to your guild. Your guild most likely thought they were going to waltz into Wildstar and kick ass at raiding. Only for the majority of them get smacked down brutally by the attunement process, most people couldn't even complete the dungeons much less complete them under the time limit to even enter the raid.

 

Wildstar's mechanics heavily rely on personal responsibility which is something most games got away from. The first few bosses had mechanics that allowed for 1-2 players to wipe the other 18. This ramped up as the bosses went on but most people couldn't even step into the raid.

 

The tragedy behind Wildstar is that they made the game everyone said the wanted. Everyone said they wanted a mega hardcore MMO with hard raids and dungeons. They made that and people left because their egos got crushed. Once they found out that they weren't the amazing players they thought they were then they hated on the game relentlessly like a spurned lover. Sure Carbine royally messed up PvP and casual content but they absolutely didn't mess up the thing that people were begging for.

 

That's what concerns me about the MEGA HARDCORE forum warriors we have on the Crowfall forums. These are the people that are asking for all these ridiculous "hardcore and skillful" gameplay mechanics that would just lead to game that is unfun and stupid as hell. 

Edited by Zybak
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Going to give a 100% accurate prediction of what happened in regards to your guild. Your guild most likely thought they were going to waltz into Wildstar and kick ass at raiding. Only for the majority of them get smacked down brutally by the attunement process, most people couldn't even complete the dungeons much less complete them under the time limit to even enter the raid.

 

Wildstar's mechanics heavily rely on personal responsibility which is something most games got away from. The first few bosses had mechanics that allowed for 1-2 players to wipe the other 18. This ramped up as the bosses went on but most people couldn't even step into the raid.

 

The tragedy behind Wildstar is that they made the game everyone said the wanted. Everyone said they wanted a mega hardcore MMO with hard raids and dungeons. They made that and people left because their egos got crushed. Once they found out that they weren't the amazing players they thought they were then they hated on the game relentlessly like a spurned lover. Sure Carbine royally messed up PvP and casual content but they absolutely didn't mess up the thing that people were begging for.

 

That's what concerns me about the MEGA HARDCORE forum warriors we have on the Crowfall forums. These are the people that are asking for all these ridiculous "hardcore and skillful" gameplay mechanics that would just lead to game that is unfun and stupid as hell. 

Probably accurate yeah.

 

But for Crowfall I have more faith it won't turn out that way due to it having multiple CW rulesets. If ACE was putting 99% of its dev time into making the Dreggs for example and the other rulesets were after thoughts then yeah be concerned. But again I think ACE has its priorities in the right place by knowing that there is more then just one type of PvPr and not catering to only one type above others. So I think having multiple rulesets to pick from will reduce the amount of players who would otherwise just outright leave the game. They might not admit it publicly of course that they thought they wanted Dregs gameplay and Shadow for example was more their style but having that option available is what I think will make this game stand above those others.

Edited by pang
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Going to give a 100% accurate prediction of what happened in regards to your guild. Your guild most likely thought they were going to waltz into Wildstar and kick ass at raiding. Only for the majority of them get smacked down brutally by the attunement process, most people couldn't even complete the dungeons much less complete them under the time limit to even enter the raid.

 

Wildstar's mechanics heavily rely on personal responsibility which is something most games got away from. The first few bosses had mechanics that allowed for 1-2 players to wipe the other 18. This ramped up as the bosses went on but most people couldn't even step into the raid.

 

The tragedy behind Wildstar is that they made the game everyone said the wanted. Everyone said they wanted a mega hardcore MMO with hard raids and dungeons. They made that and people left because their egos got crushed. Once they found out that they weren't the amazing players they thought they were then they hated on the game relentlessly like a spurned lover. Sure Carbine royally messed up PvP and casual content but they absolutely didn't mess up the thing that people were begging for.

 

That's what concerns me about the MEGA HARDCORE forum warriors we have on the Crowfall forums. These are the people that are asking for all these ridiculous "hardcore and skillful" gameplay mechanics that would just lead to game that is unfun and stupid as hell. 

This 100%. This is exactly what happened to Wildstar and exactly the reason why the customer is NOT always right. The first boss in the first raid was a pain. The second only took one person incorrectly stunning or walking into a laser to completely annihilate the raid. Most people who were behind the banner of "hardcore" were utterly broken and ran away from the game licking their wounds. 

 

As far as ablion goes, I think the game has potential and they're working to improve combat. But that grind. God the grind is real. It's not even that resources are hard to come by. You just have to gather *SO* much to be able to get the next best thing. It's a neverending treadmill. The devs stated that they originally had a timebased system like Eve, but players felt like they had nothing to do. Again thanks to a vocal minority on the forums we have a system a lot of people dislike.

 

P.S. Props to you Zybak, I followed Enigma for a while. You guys were like the only ones making moves in the 40 man back then.

Edited by zachdidit
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Their stated stance is irrelevant, the decisions they make and things they implement are what matter. 

 

So far they haven't made a game that has very inspiring pvp...

 

As for albion's forum pvp... people are talking trash in a game with a very low skill-ceiling... it doesn't really do the game any favors in advertising it to any serious pvpers. 

 

Not sure what a "serious PVPer" is, but anything that revolves around competition is going to have some lively personalities and discussions, nice to see they have at least tried to make a place for them.

 

I agree that actions speak louder than words, but nice to see them actually back up their actions with reasoning instead of letting fans bicker without any idea of what's happening behind the scenes.

Edited by allein

 


 

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Not sure what a "serious PVPer" is, but anything that revolves around competition is going to have some lively personalities and discussions, nice to see they have at least tried to make a place for them.

 

I agree that actions speak louder than words, but nice to see them actually back up their actions with reasoning instead of letting fans bicker without any idea of what's happening behind the scenes.

But have they really backed up their actions?  Their design decisions don't match with what they claim they are aiming for. 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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As far as ablion goes, I think the game has potential and they're working to improve combat. But that grind. God the grind is real. It's not even that resources are hard to come by. You just have to gather *SO* much to be able to get the next best thing. It's a neverending treadmill. The devs stated that they originally had a timebased system like Eve, but players felt like they had nothing to do. Again thanks to a vocal minority on the forums we have a system a lot of people dislike.

 

Without the grind, Albion would be even more shallow so makes sense why they went that route. Really hope CF doesn't have that issue. The early stuff they showed of crafting looked a lot more hopeful instead of AO which has one grind for +10 or whatever as the "next best thing." Very limited "sandbox" when it's a linear/vertical progression like that.

 


 

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But have they really backed up their actions?  Their design decisions don't match with what they claim they are aiming for. 

 

Such as?

 

They've made a space for "hardcore" PVPers and are making more space for what looks to be a growing "casual" base. Recent update and upcoming appear to be addressing both.

 

Didn't follow development closely, but I don't remember them ever saying that the game would only cater to a select few.

 

Obviously their ability to create what they are planning has to work itself out.

 

Believe CF has had an issue with folks assuming the game was going to be XYZ because of previous history, assumptions, alluding to by devs, etc but what's spelled out should paint a semi clear image. The idea that any of these games are only going to be for the hardest of the hardcore is fantasy. Nor should they turn into sorry excuses for themeparks.

 


 

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Before we praise Wildstar too much (Played in one of the best EU guilds myself) for it's hardcore content, let's not forget that the class balance was completely broken, along with most of the content that they delivered - hardcore or not.

 

The fact that the best gear in the game came from RNG crafting, and not from raids was enough of a sign that they had no idea what they were doing.

However, the gold dungeon runs were indeed enough to break guilds - I had to run Sanctum of the Sword Maiden on gold, and then leave the group before the last boss, so less able people in my guild could be invited and complete the instance. lol

 

I still don't think anyone has nailed PvE like Blizzard did in WoW: TBC - but that could be my nostalgia talking.

Edited by xaine
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Such as?

 

They've made a space for "hardcore" PVPers and are making more space for what looks to be a growing "casual" base. Recent update and upcoming appear to be addressing both.

 

Didn't follow development closely, but I don't remember them ever saying that the game would only cater to a select few.

 

Obviously their ability to create what they are planning has to work itself out.

 

Believe CF has had an issue with folks assuming the game was going to be XYZ because of previous history, assumptions, alluding to by devs, etc but what's spelled out should paint a semi clear image. The idea that any of these games are only going to be for the hardest of the hardcore is fantasy. Nor should they turn into sorry excuses for themeparks.

No they've made space for casual pvpers, there is no hardcore pvp space in albion, nor does the game require enough skill to ever intrigue a hardcore pvper. 

 

They cater to casuals primarily, they aren't just doing it to support a "hardcore sandbox mmorpg with open world pvp" it's more like the open world pvp is being nerfed out and the "hardcore" sandbox aspect doesn't really exist at all, unless you consider the most mindless grinding to be hardcore.

 

It's not like any of it is surprising, the game was made with tablets and such in mind, but it's nothing new for devs to spin some pretty ideas, without actually following through. 

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Im my opinion, you should design the most hard core cut throat world you can. Then you dial it back a bit, give some areas for casuals to have a place, make sure these areas brush up against the hardcore areas and voila, you have a vibrant world with contrast. An area where the peaceful and industrious live, with the Wild West next door where all the good stories come from occasionally causing a ruckus in their neighbourhood.

 

The reality is, no game can be successful without appeasing both the casual sensibilities and the Hardcore in at least some way. E.G. EVE lets you choose the level of danger you subject yourself to, however it offers the Hardcore players the wild west they want, and oppurtunities for incursions into safe space: if at a cost. Wildstar appealed perfectly to the Hardcore audience, but they didn't realise that not everyone who was playing was hardcore, some of them were just looking for a decent challenge that could be overcome after a couple wipes. Thats why you let people choose the level of difficulty they are exposed to. I play RTS games on Easy, but I play TBS on the hardest mode I can. The keybis to give the player a way to choose their level of exposure to the hardcore content, I think the different rulesets might achieve some of this.

 

Dark Souls is commonly quoted as a Hardcore game but its not really, not in the sense when you compare it to some really hard core stuff from the past. Its casual Hardcore, a tough challenge, but by no means unwinnable or unfair. Its absolutely trivial however once you've knocked around in it for a while.

Edited by potatomcwhiskey
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No they've made space for casual pvpers, there is no hardcore pvp space in albion, nor does the game require enough skill to ever intrigue a hardcore pvper. 

 

They cater to casuals primarily, they aren't just doing it to support a "hardcore sandbox mmorpg with open world pvp" it's more like the open world pvp is being nerfed out and the "hardcore" sandbox aspect doesn't really exist at all, unless you consider the most mindless grinding to be hardcore.

 

It's not like any of it is surprising, the game was made with tablets and such in mind, but it's nothing new for devs to spin some pretty ideas, without actually following through. 

 

The mobile aspect has a lot to do with their catering to "casuals" but I'm not sure how much more "hardcore" they can get PVP.

 

You can lose your gear/money, you can lose your land in a relatively "fair" way, and you have to grind/pay for everything.

 

It does have a low skill cap, but doubtful any game would meet your expectations in that regard.

 

As I said above, the term "hardcore" isn't the best and might be something different to you than I, but not sure what they or any other game could do that would be more so. Permadeath?

 

Having the option to opt out or not be as involved with the PVP side of things doesn't detract from it for someone that is only concerned with that aspect. Much like the EKs. If someone wants to play house or whatever, folks in the Dregs shouldn't really care as long as they aren't put out.

 

Overall the game design isn't very outside of the box and seems to be trying to hit several things that people enjoy from other games, but missing the mark on all. Hopefully CF turns out better as they are doing a similar approach.

 

It's why I hope ACE starts revealing and discussing other areas of the game, even though combat might be the test focus currently. 

Edited by allein

 


 

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The keybis to give the player a way to choose their level of exposure to the hardcore content, I think the different rulesets might achieve some of this.

 

I agree, but my concern is what will they do to keep the number from swaying too far one way or another like it typically happens.

 

I've said it before, but I doubt The Dregs will be the most popular ruleset, which over time could lead to future updates and what not catering to the others more, even though The Dregs is the "core" of the game. Along with the CWs simply dying off never to return or being sparsely populated, causing players to seek out other rulesets and result in the clash of play styles (personalities) that we've seen on the forums.

 

Tricky balance and doesn't seem like any game has really ever found a lasting balance. Despite EVEs success over the years, it takes a particular type of person to play it and even on the "casual" level, folks are probably more "hardcore" invested through time/money than most other games out there.

 

Agree on Dark Souls. I no longer enjoy single player type games, but seems very trial and error rather than an ongoing challenge. Much like Raids and what not in other games. The learning curve might be high, but eventually a decent player will overcome it. Unlike PVP where there is potentially always someone better to challenge.

 


 

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