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EntityGaming

Infinite vs Finite ammo

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Home from work and no longer forum posting from a phone, Hooray!

 

So finite vs infinite ammo is something I'm sure many people have run into in different MMO's and really all games. In MMORPG's, it's gone to mostly infinite ammo. In an FPS finite ammo isn't an issue in most cases due to how the ammo system works (I explain below). In other RPG's of the non MMO variety (say Skyrim), it often defaults to finite ammo. Why is this the case? What influenced the game designers to make their games this way?

 

MMORPGs

In most cases it's due to the players convincing game designers that it isn't what they want. Not to mention it makes it easier on the dev team since they no longer have to come up with new ammo every time new content is added. Classic World of Warcraft all the way through Wrath of the Lich King had ammo for bows, guns and crossbows. I don't know the exact reason that ammo was removed but, complaints on forums about having to have arrows equipped all the time, and always purchasing more from vendors, etc. probably had an influence. Most reagents have been removed as well.

 

FPS

In most FPS games, it's almost a mindless mechanic. You shoot, kill, run over the person's body and recover full ammo. It's not fun, it's not even really a mechanic you think about. It just happens.

 

Single Player RPG

In Skyrim and single player games, there's not a lot of competition (except in maybe speedrunning). They are games where you don't interact with other players, so you don't hear people crying about running out of ammo in the middle of fighting a Yeti. In fact, that kind of experience is really something memorable and fun to think back to. But once again, there is no player interaction, which is why it's easier for the game design philosophy to be more realistic in deciding finite ammo is an OK concept.

 

Crowfall: The Game of Thrones, Walking Dead, EVE Online Throne War Simulator MMORPG Strategy Game...

A bold dive into a sea of new design concepts for a genre that is evolving... What do we have in plan for ammo? It's such a simple question but it's really going to have a HUGE influence on the game. The way that campaigns and the EK work makes it feel like maybe a single arrow item (or hurlbat) that provides infinite ammo could work... because items decay. Eventually the item would break and you would have to buy 1 new infinite arrow. It seems like this answers the question of infinite vs finite pretty easily.

 

But what about crafting? What about the people who make these arrows as a living? A guild may recruit a craftsman of several trades, whose core focus in the game is to ensure the guild members have decent gear during campaigns. Imagine guild members gather the materials, give it to the craftsman, and he build the single infinite arrow... and then what. The craftsman sits there for the rest of the campaign? Hopefully items would decay quick enough that it'd need to be repaired. But what if there was finite ammo? And you constantly had to send Work Requests to your guild's craftsman in order to receive new equipment for different missions* and campaigns? Gathering resources would become more important. The Craftsman would become more important. Everyone would play a more vital role in your guild's success.

 

I want to give a quick example before I wrap up. In Original EQ, fletching has and always will be a valuable tradeskill. I was a Wood Elf Fletcher for a long time. My guild's rangers regularly came to me asked me for more Blessed Champion Arrows, because I was one of the few Fletcher's on server who could make them. I didn't often go with them in party to do anything, but I developed a relationship with these guild members just because I was constantly making them more arrows. And they'd tip me so I could go buy other things besides crafting materials. Now think of that on a grand scale for a Crowfall Campaign.

 

Alright this is just a quick take on the idea of finite vs infinite ammo. What d'yall think of this her' idea?

 

 

*I know there are not quests or missions. What I mean by missions are guild tasks set out by leadership, whether it's gathering intel, or gathering materials, etc.

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Pretty sure there was a thread on this with the exact same title, and I think ACE made a decision on this as well, but I can't remember so well.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Infinite ammo.  Forcing finite ammo just means a player will hoard 1000's of arrows in his inventory.  Which is nothing but a menial pointless task.

 

If they decide to implement finite ammo then they should also implement weapon durability and scale it similarly.


[@--(o.O)@]

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The way that campaigns and the EK work makes it feel like maybe a single arrow item (or hurlbat) that provides infinite ammo could work... because items decay. Eventually the item would break and you would have to buy 1 new infinite arrow. It seems like this answers the question of infinite vs finite pretty easily.

 

How is this functionally different from having a finite stack of ammo?  If I have an "infinite" arrow that breaks after 100 shots, that feels pretty similar to having a stack of 100 arrows.  With one you add more to the pile, while the other you get it repaired, so both give a reason to visit the fletcher.  Your "infinite" arrow just has less granularity in that you can't grab a couple arrows from your buddy to top off your stack.

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I don't know.  I was just stating an often forgotten parallel.  As long as item decay was on use and not on death, then I'd be fine.

 

Legit.  I'd also prefer decay on use, as that feels more real and, again, gives your actions consequence; you can't just run through a battlefield without a little wear and tear on your helmet, and hacking away at some mobs should end in a trip to the smith for re-honing even if you don't n00b out and die.

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Haven't the Dev's said they plan for equipment decay already?

I certainly hope so, not having decaying equipment is a bad move for a sandbox game like Crowfall. I'd argue that infinite ammo is also a bad way to go, ammo and reagents and limits to how much a character can carry are important restraints on ranged characters, not to mention it puts more circulation into economy.


Member of The BlackHand Order

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How is this functionally different from having a finite stack of ammo?  If I have an "infinite" arrow that breaks after 100 shots, that feels pretty similar to having a stack of 100 arrows.  With one you add more to the pile, while the other you get it repaired, so both give a reason to visit the fletcher.  Your "infinite" arrow just has less granularity in that you can't grab a couple arrows from your buddy to top off your stack.

This is the point I was trying to illustrate as well.  There is no real difference.  One just requires you to stuff your bags full of arrows.


[@--(o.O)@]

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Equipment decay over time and on death are both confirmed, they have a sincere expectation for creating economies to be essential to gameplay... like I said this is a redundant topic, it's been discussed far beyond the scope of this thread.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Infinite ammo.  Forcing finite ammo just means a player will hoard 1000's of arrows in his inventory.  Which is nothing but a menial pointless task.

 

If they decide to implement finite ammo then they should also implement weapon durability and scale it similarly.

 

Lets see how many times the average redshirt wants to pay for a thousand arrows when he gets ganked and looted while solo farming, or cut off from his friends, or in the bathroom. 

 

Come on.

 

Finite ammo involving both magic users and archers is a best case scenario, but we are not likely to see that given the Confessor already not needing any... The easy method would to just not require anything and that is the most likely scenario. Requiring only archers to need arrows while mages spam magic all the live-long day is just a raw deal.


aka honeybear

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odd. I can't find my topic I started on this very subject earlier last year. I know it was merged but meh. Found it, I titled it Infinite or finite ammo (similar topic here but in suggestion section) and it was merged with "Make Arrows an Item"

 

it was pretty split between the groups.

 

ACE made took a side in the Archer update

This begs the question: why two fighting styles?

The answer is simple: the Ranger is our first archetype to use a weapon that requires ammunition.

Yes, that means you’ll need arrows to use your bow. As a fallback, when you’re out of ammo, you’ll need to draw your blades and get up close and personal.

 


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Camaraderie ~ Loyalty ~ Honor ~ Maturity ~ Integrity ~ Duty

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Hooray for finite ammo!

It's realistic, promotes the value of crafters, and introduces emergent gameplay.

 

Of course rangers and stalkers will have melee fighting weapons, skills and powers. It's realistic and historically accurate.

They will be gimpy compared to dedicated melee archetypes, though. Melee disciplines, like executioner should help.

Maybe there should even be a melee-oriented ranger promotion?

Edited by chancellor

I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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Finite but relatively easy to craft.

 

The point is, it lends to the crafting economy, but with some effort, you can craft your own. It also takes away from pew pew pew that the ranger class has gotten a bad reputation with. Range classes are so hated because they are often perceived to just spam shots without consequence.

 

If you have limited ammo, you better make your shots count or have an escape plan in place. It will make playing the class more fun (it goes back to the conversation about consequences vs punishment) and help to keep it balanced (me thinks)

Edited by Kell

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Finite number of arrows but able to craft specialty arrows in limited quantities to supplement your combat needs.  You bow should degrade over time and usage.   Crafting can repair bows and create more durable ones.

Edited by Gramps

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Finite, but don't normally make it onerous to get/craft them.  Also, don't fall into the trap of trying to balance arrows against mage spells by making arrows do more damage because they require ammo.  Players will just run around with 1k arrows anyway making them superior dps at range in most circumstances.  

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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