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Infinite vs Finite ammo

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Finite, but don't normally make it onerous to get/craft them.  Also, don't fall into the trap of trying to balance arrows against mage spells by making arrows do more damage because they require ammo.  Players will just run around with 1k arrows anyway making them superior dps at range in most circumstances.  

 

I do think arrows are normally balanced out with higher velocity and quicker attack speed/higher frequency of arrows in the air than magic projectiles are in the air. The very very basic idea of some people is 5 times 1 fast but low damage attack equals 1 slow but high damage attack. 

 

If you take range into account most views are at equal ranges in terms of basic attacks so well. 

 

Also to me finite arrows are far more superior to mana depended spells/attacks. Sure they require a preparation and are finite in the long term while mana is infinite in the long term. However in fights running out of mana is more likely than running out of arrows which of course depends on the maximum capacity of the quiver as well as the overall maximum weight a character can endure. Which brought me to the question whether the Crowfall Ranger will have a quiver with a cap of X and has to reload when at 0 or whether the arrows are pulled from the magical inventory which should be capped at the maximum weight. 

Edited by Thyr

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Why dont go with a mechanism like with energy weapons or such?

Where a weapon got a pool of X amount of ressourse which gets depleted with every shot and regenerates at a certain speedm, and if fully depleted you have a bit to wait for regen to start or so.

Like with the alien energy weapons in Borderlands 1 for example.


After EverQuest Next is gone, its Star Citizen for me.

 

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Infinite ammo.  Forcing finite ammo just means a player will hoard 1000's of arrows in his inventory.  Which is nothing but a menial pointless task.

 

If they decide to implement finite ammo then they should also implement weapon durability and scale it similarly.

 

 

Finite, but don't normally make it onerous to get/craft them.  Also, don't fall into the trap of trying to balance arrows against mage spells by making arrows do more damage because they require ammo.  Players will just run around with 1k arrows anyway making them superior dps at range in most circumstances.  

 

I feel like a broken record.

 

Why does no one ever remember there will be looting in some campaigns (the ones that matter). 

 

In darkfall, finding someone with over 1k arrows on their corpse meant you killed a superstar archer decked out in armor and weapons worth a fortune that had no intention to die, or you found someone who thought they'd be safe farming mobs for hours before they got ganked. There is a cost to carrying that much ammo. Having something have a cost means decisions have to be made with that cost in mind.

 

I don't see them balancing archers vs mages ammunition without mages needing reagents for their spells. 


aka honeybear

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I feel like a broken record.

 

Why does no one ever remember there will be looting in some campaigns (the ones that matter). 

 

In darkfall, finding someone with over 1k arrows on their corpse meant you killed a superstar archer decked out in armor and weapons worth a fortune that had no intention to die, or you found someone who thought they'd be safe farming mobs for hours before they got ganked. There is a cost to carrying that much ammo. Having something have a cost means decisions have to be made with that cost in mind.

 

I don't see them balancing archers vs mages ammunition without mages needing reagents for their spells. 

 

Sure, they can adjust it via inventory restrictions if necessary, or through hard choices of what to carry (as you seem to suggest).  A specific number is not the point (substitute 1k for "plenty").  If you start requiring reagents, where do you stop?  Most (every?) archetypes seem to have magical abilities.  


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Sure, they can adjust it via inventory restrictions if necessary, or through hard choices of what to carry (as you seem to suggest).  A specific number is not the point (substitute 1k for "plenty").  If you start requiring reagents, where do you stop?  Most (every?) archetypes seem to have magical abilities.  

 

I don't think many champions, knights, legionnaires et al. will be throwing away their swords and axes when trying to do basic attacks. 

 

The basic attack that any archetype is reducible to should determine it:

 

Is it a projectile?

 

Yes: It should have ammo. 

No: It shouldn't. 


aka honeybear

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I don't think many champions, knights, legionnaires et al. will be throwing away their swords and axes when trying to do basic attacks. 

 

The basic attack that any archetype is reducible to should determine it:

 

Is it a projectile?

 

Yes: It should have ammo. 

No: It shouldn't. 

 

I dunno... not that we need to use "reality" as a bench mark, but the advantage of a bow and the disadvantage of a melee weapon is range; the disadvantage of a bow is ammo and the advantage of a melee weapon is that it does not require ammo.  In The Two Towers, Gimli kills more Uruks than Legolas at Helm's Deep only because the elf runs out of arrows.   


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I dunno... not that we need to use "reality" as a bench mark, but the advantage of a bow and the disadvantage of a melee weapon is range; the disadvantage of a bow is ammo and the advantage of a melee weapon is that it does not require ammo.  In The Two Towers, Gimli kills more Uruks than Legolas at Helm's Deep only because the elf runs out of arrows.   

 

Right. I'm in agreement with you. 

 

So.... why should this not apply to mages


aka honeybear

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^ that and they have quite the small range (if I remember correctly from Hunger Dome videos...).

 

To note, the 'fessor's ball is also a larger projectile, making that arch a very much short-range-AoE-glass-cannon, while the Ranger would be a longer range sniper that is a little heartier.

 

The 'fessor is almost more like a gun-slinger then a ranger in that case; besides, who really is going to speed-fire a bow (if we go with realism)? Just pull out daggers/sword if you're that close to the enemy.

 

Also, I think if it is easy enough to field-craft or salvage arrows, then a ranger should be fine without infinite ammo. Doesn't mean the arrows will be "special", but they should do the job until you get back to camp crafter/supply.

 

As for the 'fessor having infinite mana.. maybe they can have hand-to-hand combat moves, while the mana regen's slowly (think morale/exhaustion/etc.)?  ^_^

Edited by Michael Fedora

"The enemy has found me, Ulic, but the enemy knows only darkness. I know something that enemy does not… I know the Light." ~ Arca Jeth, Star Wars Legends

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my question is why does all ranged abilities have to use a consumable?  It isn't a difference between archetypes if the only thing you can see is the partial effects. Mages have mana as their resource. Pistols/bows have ammunition.  for all intent, a Ranger can play melee and only use their bow to snipe. A Confessor will always show their location because of huge fireball headed in a direction.

 

Could the Confessor have a reagent spell? Sure, but something like a huge meteor being pulled from space.

 

A second option is to allow the bow to degrade slower than other weapons. I don't exactly see the pages of the Confessors book lasting long.

 

these are pretty much the same discussions we had in the thread I started.


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Obviously, as a dedicated Crafter, I want "Finite" Ammo in the game. As an EVE player myself, crafting Ammo is one of the best ways to break into the economy. Hoping Crowfall will follow this example.  


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Right. I'm in agreement with you. 

 

So.... why should this not apply to mages

There are fundamental differences between what an ammo system allows and what a mana system allows. You couldb mathematicallyb generate the same result with either system, if that was your goal, but that doesn't make them the same.

 

With 100 mana, for example, you could cast a single 100-mana spell, or ten 10-mana spells. With 100 arrows, you will never use an attack that costs 100 arrows unless the dev team is high. Similarly, a mana system allows a 10-mana spell to be charged to use more mana, but gain size/power/effects. With ammo, you have to switch ammo to achieve these things. For these and other reasons, a mana system lends itself to far heavier use of cooldowns and such, while an ammo system is much more reliant on the situational availability of ammunition. Basically, you'll probably have attacks much more often with the ammo system, but will have to make them count more. With magic, if you spend all 100 mana to charge up a giant fireball, it's fine if it's almost impossible to miss (you will still have varying effectiveness, depending on the circumstances under which you launched it.)

 

Long story short, you can buikd significantly different class combat mechanics around how ammo and mana fundamentally work. There's no reason to forego this and make arches and mages just visual flavors of "ranged damage dealers." HOW you use arrows versus how you use magic should be unique.

 

Furthermore, regarding the thread at large, crafted arrws could have a lot of significant properties. In a game that simply treats them as an attack, you don't have this, so making them too easy or too hard to acquire becomes ridiculous very fast. But, in a game like Crowfall, you could have differences in:

 

- flight speed

- accuracy (flies true to reticle at range)

- flight distance

- damage

- effects (from damaging effects to things like armor negation to utility stuff like blinding explosions, etc.)

- Durability (chances of breaking on impact and being recoverable after/during combat)

- Etc.

 

The list is long. So, while it may be ultra easy to forage for some sticks and feathers and make basic arrows (so gou're never jogging around for 30 minutes without the use of your bow whatsoever), they're not going to be nearly as useful as hivher quality arrows that do a lot more for you. That, and the fact that emptying your quivers mid-combat leaves you temporarily without use of your bow means that it's that much more interesting and significant how you decide to react to that factor (what you do to conserve ammo, how you maximize the effectiveness of the arrows you've got in-quiver [possibly there could be combo-effect-style systems between different types of bow/melee attacks, and even different types arrows],band what you do when you exhaust your quiver [hide so you can refill it, switch to melee, switch to distraction/disabling tactics so you can recover stray arrows and use the ground as your temporary quiver, etc.]).


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There are fundamental differences between what an ammo system allows and what a mana system allows. You couldb mathematicallyb generate the same result with either system, if that was your goal, but that doesn't make them the same.

I don't think having to keep in mind the same principle of ammo conservation means all non-melee classes end up with the same results... and it's not my goal.

 

 

With 100 mana, for example, you could cast a single 100-mana spell, or ten 10-mana spells. With 100 arrows, you will never use an attack that costs 100 arrows unless the dev team is high. Similarly, a mana system allows a 10-mana spell to be charged to use more mana, but gain size/power/effects. With ammo, you have to switch ammo to achieve these things. 

And what if with 100 "stamina", or "precision" or another archetype specific stat, you could shoot a single arrow, or ten 10-stat arrows. Similarly, an arrow could be drawn back farther (charged) to use more stamina, but gain power/knockback effects. Your examples are not magic specific.

 

 

Basically, you'll probably have attacks much more often with the ammo system, but will have to make them count more. With magic, if you spend all 100 mana to charge up a giant fireball, it's fine if it's almost impossible to miss (you will still have varying effectiveness, depending on the circumstances under which you launched it.)

 

Long story short, you can buikd significantly different class combat mechanics around how ammo and mana fundamentally work. There's no reason to forego this and make arches and mages just visual flavors of "ranged damage dealers." HOW you use arrows versus how you use magic should be unique.

 

 

By this description, you're pigeonholing archery into sustained dps. There is absolutely nothing you've said that can't be applied to archery with analogous mechanics. 

 

Archers and mages both requiring ammo does not mean they both just become "visual flavors of ranged damage dealers". What it means is that they both have to consider their choices with their ammunition in combat.

 

Imagine a siege defense where a few really good perch spots exist in some towers that take a long long time to get up to. Why put archers up there when he'll run out of arrows, when you can put a mage up there who can just blast people all day and night?

 

Imagine a prolonged skirmish; if one side realizes the other side is half archers, while their own team is half mages, all they have to do is endure a longer fight and bide time until those archers all run out of ammo and then wait for their mages to have mana again, and then turn up the heat.

 

Imagine a mob farming situation: an archer hunting monsters in the same general area will inevitably have to leave to get more ammo. A mage just has to wait but could farm virtually forever.

 

Unlimited ammo breaks balance and can't exist for one class type and not the other.

Edited by vucar

aka honeybear

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I don't think having to keep in mind the same principle of ammo conservation means all non-melee classes end up with the same results... and it's not my goal.

Apologies if it came across in such a way, but it wasn't my intention at all to suggest this was your goal or that it would always yield the same results. That's just how my brain lays down context for my point, so that my point will be more specific than just a statement that will need to be questioned a bunch for specifics.

 

And what if with 100 "stamina", or "precision" or another archetype specific stat, you could shoot a single arrow, or ten 10-stat arrows. Similarly, an arrow could be drawn back farther (charged) to use more stamina, but gain power/knockback effects. Your examples are not magic specific.

Then your magic and your physical missile projectiles would function in fundamentally the same way. My examples actually are magic specific, as magic that functions just like ammo would forego the opportunity that conventional mana mechanics afford towards mechanical variety. With everyone-has-ammo, no one has the specific restrictions of a mana system. The same with everyone-has-"mana"(stamina, etc.).

 

By this description, you're pigeonholing archery into sustained dps. There is absolutely nothing you've said that can't be applied to archery with analogous mechanics.

I don't see how I am. They're two different tools. Magic can make lightning and root whips and fireballs. Arrows just make realistic/practical effects (piercing wounds, shrapnel explosions, etc.). I get what you're saying -- that nothing prohibits video game code from allowing archery to function however you want it to. However, another truth supercedes this, and that's that of class variety. I don't even care much if magic is the thing with ammo and archery uses mana (though it would make a lot less sense from a lore standpoint), as long as one functions differently from the other. And I don't just mean attack costs and numbers.

 

Archers and mages both requiring ammo does not mean they both just become "visual flavors of ranged damage dealers". What it means is that they both have to consider their choices with their ammunition in combat.

... In exactly the same manner. If the technicalities are getting in the way, then we'll just call mana "regenerating ammo." Either way, what you can build around regenerating ammo is a lot different than what you can build around static ammo.

 

 

Imagine a siege defense where a few really good perch spots exist in some towers that take a long long time to get up to. Why put archers up there when he'll run out of arrows, when you can put a mage up there who can just blast people all day and night?

Even if they both used finite ammo, why put an archer up there to fire finite quills at targets when you could put a mage up there who can summon finite arc lightnings and firewalls? Ideally, if archers have finite ammo and mages have infinite "regenerating ammo," then you design things in such a way that circumstance would dictate the best person to have up there. If people were scattered about, then maybe the mage would run out of mana trying to direct powerful enough spells at each foe to take them all down in time, while the archer could do so (arrow attacks, not spells) with ease (being able to toss spells "all day" matters little when you're killed while your mana's recharging). Likewise, if a shield wall of combatants was marching towards that vantage, the archer's arrows would probably being much less effective than the mage's ability to spend pretty much all his mana at once to toss down a couple of flame walls. Unless you want an archer to have an attack with the same mass devastation as a firewall, perhaps?

 

Imagine a prolonged skirmish; if one side realizes the other side is half archers, while their own team is half mages, all they have to do is endure a longer fight and bide time until those archers all run out of ammo and then wait for their mages to have mana again, and then turn up the heat.

Sure, I'll give you that... In a system so shallow the only factor for victory is failing to run out of ammo. You're saying that all the mages have to do is not be killed before the archers all run out of ammo... All they have to do is wait for mana to recharge... While the "archers" (Rangers, in the context of Crowfall) could just whip out melee weapons and charge them. Or relocate, hide, etc. Again, I personally hope that a regiment of Tangers fighting a regiment of mages isn't so simplistic that it comes down to who has infinite ammo. You can't make decisions about a single mechanic like ammo based on examples devoid of other factors. Yet again, even if both sides had finite ammo, would not the mages just blow up all the Rangers with their magic? How do you make sure that's not the case, without ammo functionality to rely on? A lot of ways, I should hope.


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With special effects coming from the toon's powers, not the ammo, Rangers will likely use both an arrow and some mana with each shot.


Honestly, you are the type of person that is much to competitive, has zero compassion for other people and think you are better than everyone else. You likely love to troll people on a day to day bases to get others angry and laugh about it. You make playing any online game unfun for everyone else.  -Kuroaka

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Unlimited ammo breaks balance and can't exist for one class type and not the other.

This is as true as saying that having a ranged attack breaks balance and can't exist for one class type and not the other. Which obviously isn't true. It can, potentially break balance, if appropriate efforts are not put into it, but it does not inherently break balance.


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This thread was originally in the Ranger archetype subforum.

New people who want to craft can at least see how the community supports their niche in the whole CF forum.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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Arbitrarily delegating finite ammo to just ranged sounds rather silly, a swordsman who doesnt maintain his equipment should also take a stat hit on his weapons such that he is forced after some time to repair them or suffer a significant disadvantage. The trade off for a ranger is buying better arrows and crappy arrows so perhaps for a skirmish where the ranger doesnt expect to recover his arrows for repair he uses inferior arrows to distract his opponent, it would be about ensuring that any journey you make must be prepared for. Stat hits are the way to go for incremental decision value decay.

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Arbitrarily delegating finite ammo to just ranged sounds rather silly, a swordsman who doesnt maintain his equipment should also take a stat hit on his weapons such that he is forced after some time to repair them or suffer a significant disadvantage.

Not sure what you mean, exactly. Equipment decay is already in, so even the Ranger's swords will break eventually. That is the melee equivalent of running out of ammo.


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I'm generally in favor of finite ammo.

The one thing I don't want to see, whether it be via magic or bow is for players to attack from range with impunity.

It's always a bad thing for warfare simulation one side can effectively attack endlessly because they in effect have unlimited resources to do so.

 

Which is why I am more a fan of the EVE Online model, as it has been shown to work.  Even with some weapons having unlimited ammo (in this case magic), ie Energy Turrets, they come with their own drawbacks and counters. (ie Energy Vampire, Energy Destabilizer)

As a result warfare becomes as much about logistics and supply lines, as it does tactics and strategy.

 

Against rangers you can put them in a situation where they can run out of ammo. (by limiting how much ammo that can carry)  And actively blocking or avoiding them.

And against magic, you can have counter magic archtypes, like the Guild Wars 1s Mesmer.  Interruption, prevention, mana loss and theft.

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