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The Big Reveal: Crows and vessels - Official discussion thread

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The multiple accounts argument doesn't really hold much weight, as it is not the intended experience... they also didn't really tear down that pay-wall, there are still advantages to owning multiple accounts.  For example training 2 different sets of general skills... or training 2 diff lines for a specific archetype (you can't double down with your training on one account)

 

And you may think it doesn't favor zergs... (i'd love to hear your arguments for why that might be the case) but anytime you give a zerg more options they have a greater chance of bringing what hard counters you... that's just numbers...

 

stop pulling these arguments into the abstract...

 

I never said that multiple accounts don't give any advantages... they clearly do

I never said that numbers aren't an advantage either.

 

The new system gives the option to theoretically play ALL archetypes and promotion classes on 1 account... this wasn't possible before, which means multiple accounts got less of a value... yet didn't get completely devalued.

 

 

edit:

btw, you still have to make a proper argument why versatility is a bad thing.

Edited by freeze

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I'm not a roleplayer, can some help me understand the problems?

I am respecting them, I don't want to sound sarcastic (so sorry if I sound like that, I don't want to).

 

 

Replying as a role player -

Having slept on it, this doesn't really hurt single character role players. Your character is your crow. (hopefully tied to a single deity chosen on creation)

Conceptually I like the system. You can chose to focus on a single type or to diversify, the choice is yours and can be considered a RP choice. 

 

My complaint though is the one crow to account. I like having distinctly different personality characters. I want my "good", "evil" and neutral" characters so I can chose what personality I want to play (not what archetype). 

 

On one day I may feel like being a super friendly crafter who doesn't care who I deal business with. His (or her) rep would be built both on the quality of gear made and friendly demeanor.

 

Another day I may want to charge into battle and kill everyone. There needs to be a clear difference between the two personas. Having the same crow in different bodies doesn't cut it as I'd still be "Ledeir" (or whatever my crow's name is). The murder vessel will ruin the rep of the friendly crafter. 

 

Those personalities would also play in different flavored campaigns so body swapping wouldn't be a solution. (unless you can freely jump campaigns, but that isn't something the devs want)

 

Unless they have multiple crows to an account, I'm just going to have multiple accounts and not bother with VIP. 

I'll get the experience I want for less money. 

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How do you plan to equip that many people AND their alternate vessels?

Yeah valid point IMO. I mean yeah its now possible to have a vessel of every archetype available to use in a single CW. But how realistic is it that most will have fully decked out and viable to compete on high level vessels of each archetype, not very likely in my opinion. More realistic most might have 2-3 at most vessels that can use with equal amount of gear/training. Those with high "lvl" vessels of all or even many archetype will be rare, hence not enough of a factor to worry about it ruining balance or other elements. and that's not even mentioning player skill and experience level for each archetype, something that will make it even more rare and less of an issue.

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Vessels will be available in graveyards, so even if you don't have any more of your own, you can grab one at the appropriate graveyard. It may not be a very good one, but you'll have something you can use. You can also spend time during the campaign collecting vessels.

 

From what Blair said on the podcast, it doesn't sound like people will have a problem sticking to one archetype if that's what they want, though there could be campaigns where there is a limit on the available vessels.

In the C&C Q&A they stated that you can "hold" or claim a graveyard so if you want that free knight every time you have to own that graveyard or find an on unoccupied one Edited by KRIPTIK

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stop pulling these arguments into the abstract...

 

I never said that multiple accounts don't give any advantages... they clearly do

I never said that numbers aren't an advantage either.

 

The new system gives the option to theoretically play ALL archetypes and promotion classes on 1 account... this wasn't possible before, which means multiple accounts got less of a value... yet didn't get completely devalued.

 

 

edit:

btw, you still have to make a proper argument why versatility is a bad thing.

Actually i've made a pretty clear argument... as it removes more emphasis from being locked into hard choices and learning to adapt based on those choices and gives you too many options (in this case) which perpetuates even more, a hard-counter focused meta as opposed to a "learning to make due with the less than ideal"...

 

In the end this becomes uninspiring to the hardcore pvper because there is no real challenge or excitement from hard-countering someone... it's generally pretty easy and unsatisfying.

 

It's much more interesting to try and figure out how to survive as paper vs scissor, than it is to simply switch over to rock and crush them and then wait for them to switch to a hard-counter to try and crush you.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Hey gang,

 

 

We knew this one would be a bit controversial, but we felt (and still feel) that it is the the best idea for the game overall.  Ever idea has pros and cons, obviously. We debated it (ad nauseum!) and kept coming back to it, because we felt like the pros heavily outweighed the cons.

 

 

A few notes and clarifications:

 

 

- No, we are not going to sell vessels in our shop.  You'll need to find them, craft them, or get them from other players.

 

 

- We expect a brisk trade economy between players.  This opens up / really expands some "occupations" (graverobbers, undertakers, necromancers, vessel hunting/transport/retrieval, runecrafting...)

 

 

 

A note to the RPers:

 

 

For those of who you are thinking about this from a roleplaying perspective (bless you!), keep in mind that there is a reason that I wanted to reveal this idea in a graphic-novel format.  The archetype narratives are (generally) written with the idea of the character's "first life" in mind -- if my origin was a Knight, that experience shaped my personality from the beginning of my "life" as a Crow.  How will I handle the idea of trading my freedom to the Gods for the promise of immortal life?  Now that I see what the deal entails, do I feel cheated?  How would I feel about the idea of changing mortal forms / bodies?  

 

 

Some individuals might find the idea of changing skins repellant (or at the least, extremely disquieting). I can imagine a personality type that would stick with their original body, repairing it and never wanting to leave it because of fear of the unknown (and, perhaps, fear of losing themselves.)

 

 

I can also imagine another personality type that has been doing this so long -- endless years of fighting for the Gods -- that they can barely recall their original life. More crow than mortal, they treat the vessels as disposable tools, never getting too attached to a body (or, quite likely, to anything other than the will to dominate.) 

 

 

I plan to explore these narrative threads quite a bit more in the future.

 

 

The system, as designed, offers flexibility to allow BOTH of these playstyles, and the wide spectrum in between.  If you want to attach yourself to one vessel, or one type of vessel, or a subset of vessels...  You can treat them as irreplaceable, or disposable.

 

 

"Crafting a unique, personal response to a new challenge or situations" is, IMO, extremely fertile ground for roleplaying.  Before you dismiss this as 'not good for my story,' I would challenge you to walk through the experience, and think about the ways that it might play out.  How would this change your outlook on the universe?  On the sanctity of life?  Your memories and relationships with others?  Your loyalty to the Gods?   I think if you give it a chance, you'll be surprised by the breadth of storytelling opportunities that this premise can offer.

 

 

 

One more note, to everyone: 

 

 

I want to say thanks for being (mostly) open to this idea.  We set out to take some design risks with Crowfall.  Every time we stray from the "normal" path of MMO design, two things happen: (1) some people aren't going to like it and (2) the knowledge space of MMO design expands a bit.  

 

 

On a positive note, even if you fall into group (1), you win.  When new things are tried, we clear out some of the fog of war of what is and isn't possible with these games, and future products get better as a result.  For all of Shadowbane's flaws, we took some real risks and a surprising number of them paid off.  Echoes of that game are still being felt across a handful of other games, and I'm extremely proud of that.

 

 

Thank you for giving us the freedom and the opportunity to try new things.  They may not all work, but we need to try.  What is the alternative? Another WOW clone? custard that.

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Todd

 

ACE

 


J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

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So when it comes to promotions will you be able to train Multiple promotions of the same archetype? Like can i start training Knights Crusader Skills and then train Some skills in Swordsman. 

 

No, they answered to this question already.

 

So being that a god selected you, what are the benefits to the gods in relation to your vessel?: (such as)

Better training speeds for certain skills related to the god’s portfolio

Ability to more easily locate vessels that have significance to the god

Absorbing some skill from a legendary hero vessel related to a god

Retaining some portion of skill advancement from a vessel (this would help reduce the disparity between VIP ad normal accounts)

Are there negatives?

Edit

Such as:

All combat vessels are taken, so you get stuck with a miners/farmer/merchants body  you may get an odd skill you don’t normally have, but you will fight as your primary archtype at a reduced skill rate

 

It's interesting. Vessels allows for some elaborate Gods mechanics... what if X God doesn't like Y,Z,Q archetypes and you can't use them when you're worshipping him? Or like Old_Crow said, what if choosing a certain God makes some skills train faster.. and so on.

 

Maybe there's a God that helps crafters, so that a bit of versatility gets reduced for better crafting overall.

Since now everyone with VIP can basically be a crafter under the right skin...

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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Interesting concept and honestly I don't think I will fully understand until its actually put in play. So many possibilities for miss interpretation with something that really hasn't been done in this fashion before. So looking forward to more information down the road!


Interesting concept and honestly I don't think I will fully understand until its actually put in play. So many possibilities for miss interpretation with something that really hasn't been done in this fashion before. So looking forward to more information down the road!


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Varius - Veteran Member of LG

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Actually i've made a pretty clear argument... as it removes more emphasis from being locked into hard choices and learning to adapt based on those choices and gives you too many options (in this case) which perpetuates even more, a hard-counter focused meta as opposed to a "learning to make due with the less than ideal"...

 

In the end this becomes uninspiring to the hardcore pvper because there is no real challenge or excitement from hard-countering someone... it's generally pretty easy and unsatisfying.

 

It's much more interesting to try and figure out how to survive as paper vs scissor, than it is to simply switch over to rock and crush them and then wait for them to switch to a hard-counter to try and crush you.

I don't think switching will be as easy or convenient as you suggest. Can you lay out a scenario as to how you think this will play out? 

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....

 

 

Thank you for giving us the freedom and the opportunity to try new things.  They may not all work, but we need to try.  What is the alternative? Another WOW clone? custard that.

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Todd

 

ACE

 

That moment (among others) that you know you've made the right choice in backing the game.

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I find this concept intriguing.  If I like it or not, I'll find that out when I get to play with it some.  There has been a number of times I went into something convinced I would dislike it, just to be pleasantly surprised and actually enjoy the experience.

 

I am curious as well as to which name will be visible... if we even have signs above our head screaming to the world who we are in the final product... Perhaps we will be given a choice as to which name we want shown?  Maybe rename the vessel to our crow name if we want the same name or rename it something different if we would rather keep our true self a secret?

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Blair said on the podcast that it will be the crow name, but I would like to have the option to use either for espionage purposes.

 

Regarding having signs above our heads, I imagine they'll do it like they do now. Nameplates are only shown when in combat with that player.

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I am curious as well as to which name will be visible...

 

Someone posted in this thread that they said in the C&C interview that it'll be Crow-name. If you can choose to display the vessel-name is an option or not is something I don't know.

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So what happens to the choices in character creation? Does the crow form chose advantages or disadvantages or are those randomly determined for the vessels. Do you create an original version of your character for the account from before you became a crow?

 

Are you going to shoot fireballs as a knight now because your trained as a confessor for so long before you switched vessels?

 

Is vessel quality just what physical stats they have? What if I would rather have different stats? Am I stuck with whatever I can "dig up"?

 

You know you could leave everything as before and have this body hopping crow be its own archetype.


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Sekket on Mourning. Bhorov on Test Server. Youma the Pirate wherever TSP has sailed.

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--snip--

 

 

What you said is all very true and good (thank you for posting!), but I think the biggest problem the one-body-RP'ers are struggling with, or at least I am, is that my original body will never be as good as a "rare" or "epic/legendary" body. Unless, of course, "epic" bodies (vessels, sorry) are just common vessels with some "epic" runes on them...

 

So yeah, I'd use my original vessel when I'm visiting another Crow's kingdom (if that is how that works..), or when I'm doing PvE, but almost any other time I'd have to use my "epic" vessel.

 

Which is still okay, as I think I can manage, but just another thing to complain about :P


"The enemy has found me, Ulic, but the enemy knows only darkness. I know something that enemy does not… I know the Light." ~ Arca Jeth, Star Wars Legends

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A note to the RPers:

 

 

For those of who you are thinking about this from a roleplaying perspective (bless you!), keep in mind that there is a reason that I wanted to reveal this idea in a graphic-novel format.  The archetype narratives are (generally) written with the idea of the character's "first life" in mind -- if my origin was a Knight, that experience shaped my personality from the beginning of my "life" as a Crow.  How will I handle the idea of trading my freedom to the Gods for the promise of immortal life?  Now that I see what the deal entails, do I feel cheated?  How would I feel about the idea of changing mortal forms / bodies?  

 

 

 

 

While this is fine for a large chunk of roleplayers, for the reasons you mentioned, it neglects to consider a specific demographic - The multiple character player.

There are those of us who want to have distinctly different character personalities on a single account.

 

There are also those of us who want to have shared family accounts (for example two siblings who share a computer). I went through many years sharing a Dragonrealms account (old MUD) for instance... (This is less common today I expect, but still, there are some people who do it I expect)

 

I want to have my friendly crafter whose rep is built on quality of goods and open personality.

 

I also want to have my murder crow who wants nothing more than to steal your body. 

 

I want to choose which to play when and where I want.

 

With one crow per account I am either taking a decay hit to swap bodies, or buying a second account (instead of VIP).

 

Also, unless vessels have different names, my crafter's rep would be ruined by my murdercrows actions...

 

Conceptually I like the system. It has a lot of promise. But I think we still need different characters per account.

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Someone posted in this thread that they said in the C&C interview that it'll be Crow-name. If you can choose to display the vessel-name is an option or not is something I don't know.

 

Thanks.  And I've read this whole thread and still somehow missed it.  I hope the option to change the name will be available at least.

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I don't think switching will be as easy or convenient as you suggest. Can you lay out a scenario as to how you think this will play out? 

I think whatever limitations they put in for switching people will put those logistics into their battleplans and then figure out the ideal times to switch to hard-counters for whatever situation they are trying to win. 

 

They could put in harsher limitations sure... and i've suggested some... but nothing i've seen indicates it will be a very difficult process... they've already suggested a few ways you might have vessels available. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I think whatever limitations they put in for switching people will put those logistics into their battleplans and then figure out the ideal times to switch to hard-counters for whatever situation they are trying to win. 

 

They could put in harsher limitations sure... and i've suggested some... but nothing i've seen indicates it will be a very difficult process... they've already suggested a few ways you might have vessels available. 

That's fine, but I'm looking for something more specific as to how you think this will give someone an advantage. You keep saying hard counters. Give me an example of that. Are you talking about in the middle of a fight? Are you talking about your team scouting out the enemy and deciding on the best group composition to engage them with? Are you talking about planning a siege?

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