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The Big Reveal: Crows and vessels - Official discussion thread

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That's fine, but I'm looking for something more specific as to how you think this will give someone an advantage. You keep saying hard counters. Give me an example of that. Are you talking about in the middle of a fight? Are you talking about your team scouting out the enemy and deciding on the best group composition to engage them with? Are you talking about planning a siege?

Team A has composition X

Team B has composition Y

 

Team A realizes that composition F hard-counters composition Y, Team A wrestles with whatever logistics the game has to offer in switching your avatar and goes for composition F. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Team B realises that A is going for F to hard counter them and goes for composition C which is a hard counter for composition F, and the team A fails to adopt composition F for whatever reason and they end up with composition Y vs composition C, which might provide for some unexpected outcomes.

Edited by rajah

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Team B realises that A is going for F to hard counter them and goes for composition C which is a hard counter for composition F, and the team A fails to adopt composition F for whatever reason and they end up with composition Y vs composition C, which might provide for some unexpected outcomes.

Yea then it just becomes a hard-counter back and forth... which i've been talking about... it's not much different in principle to the whole hard cc vs cc break issues ...


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Team A has composition X

Team B has composition Y

 

Team A realizes that composition F hard-counters composition Y, Team A wrestles with whatever logistics the game has to offer in switching your avatar and goes for composition F. 

How does team A realize that composition F hard-counters composition Y? If they are scouting out the enemy, counting numbers and archetypes, I consider that a good thing. If you think that teams A and B will get into a fight and team A will decide on the fly to switch, I seriously doubt that will ever happen.

 

You are also not considering the possibility that team B switches as well. If one team can do it, why can't the other? Maybe team B knew that there was a spy in their midst, so they made plans to attack with a certain composition, knowing what the enemy would do to counter it, and then turned the tables on them. 

 

I think switching will be limited due to limited resources. I don't think you'll see people switching mid-combat. These will be planned things and sometimes the best plans go awry. 

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Not really, you could go for a set up that is more well rounded and athough less powerfull vs a particular other set up is more probable to be useful in majority of situations.

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Lurker since Kickstarter. Backer since a few days. First post today. /bow.

I was ambivalent about the idea during the first few seconds only, but loved it by the end of the video, FAQ and live-stream.

 

Lets not forget that even in god's reach there is decay. You will die and eventually lose the body you possessed. This could take 1-10 deaths in the hardcore realms. This could take 100-500 deaths in god's reach. But it makes death significant. And for that I have been waiting a long, long time. It will make you think twice about confrontation, and that is an unparalleled kind of rush. Even if our bodies didn't wither, our purple items would've. Same deal.

 

We can customize our aesthetics upon possession at the graveyard. I'm sure they will allow us to save presets.

If you're looking to die without consequence... Use a white or a green body.

 

Also don't forget bodies don't come with stats. They modify the potential for you to apply your own maximum skills.

If I can train Swordmastery from 0 to 200. But green bodies are capped at 120... I now have a choice to make when I hit 120. Will I go into the blue range, or will I put my focus elsewhere?

 

Also don't forget training swordmastery from 120 to 121 might take 2 days.

 

Depending how to implement this... seeing a purple body with capped skills could be an awesome sight.

Also don't forget if I enter my purple body with 20 swordmastery... I still only have 20 swordmastery.

 

Awesome Idea. I freaking love it.

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How does team A realize that composition F hard-counters composition Y? If they are scouting out the enemy, counting numbers and archetypes, I consider that a good thing. If you think that teams A and B will get into a fight and team A will decide on the fly to switch, I seriously doubt that will ever happen.

 

You are also not considering the possibility that team B switches as well. If one team can do it, why can't the other? Maybe team B knew that there was a spy in their midst, so they made plans to attack with a certain composition, knowing what the enemy would do to counter it, and then turned the tables on them. 

 

I think switching will be limited due to limited resources. I don't think you'll see people switching mid-combat. These will be planned things and sometimes the best plans go awry. 

Because min/maxers learn what counters what....

 

Team B can switch and then all you have is hard-counter rock paper scissors... it's not particularly intuitive play. 

 

Also people will game whatever logistics are in place... if there are cooldown timers they'll create windows to put you on cd while they aren't... this is a form of tactical play... it just isn't very engaging...


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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any reason we're disregarding any time frames for when someone will actually be able to pull 20+ promotion classes and whatnot?

 

decisions still matter... just not forever...but certainly for an extended period of time

 

it'll take years for scenarios like these to unfold... we'll be seeing plenty of X counters Y and Y is stuck at the beginning...

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any reason we're disregarding any time frames for when someone will actually be able to pull 20+ promotion classes and whatnot?

 

decisions still matter... just not forever...but certainly for an extended period of time

 

it'll take years for scenarios like these to unfold... we'll be seeing plenty of X counters Y and Y is stuck at the beginning...

Not really... at first the hard-countering will simply start with the base archetypes, then it will move into the more refined builds... but it's not like base archetypes won't have counters early on...


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Because min/maxers learn what counters what....

 

Team B can switch and then all you have is hard-counter rock paper scissors... it's not particularly intuitive play. 

 

Also people will game whatever logistics are in place... if there are cooldown timers they'll create windows to put you on cd while they aren't... this is a form of tactical play... it just isn't very engaging...

So you believe that people will bring extra vessels with them in their inventory, and in the middle of a fight, decide to change vessels? I don't see that happening.

 

I think you are also working off a false assumption that hard counters will exist. If team A has 20 people and team B has 40 people, what's the hard counter for team A? Run away? If both teams are even numbers and team B has a balanced composition, what's the hard counter? Bring all confessors? All legionnaires?

 

I think you are theorycrafting problems that won't actually occur in practice. That's why I've been trying to get you to be specific in how these things will play out, but you refuse to play along. :P

 

Oh well, I guess we will see when we get to play it.

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So you believe that people will bring extra vessels with them in their inventory, and in the middle of a fight, decide to change vessels? I don't see that happening.

 

I think you are also working off a false assumption that hard counters will exist. If team A has 20 people and team B has 40 people, what's the hard counter for team A? Run away? If both teams are even numbers and team B has a balanced composition, what's the hard counter? Bring all confessors? All legionnaires?

 

I think you are theorycrafting problems that won't actually occur in practice. That's why I've been trying to get you to be specific in how these things will play out, but you refuse to play along. :P

 

Oh well, I guess we will see when we get to play it.

They will change vessels based on the logistics of the system and when they deem it tactically correct to do so... it can be before a fight... it can be as a respawn wave... who knows...

 

As far as team A and team B being different sizes... this just goes back to another point... adding more versatility always favors a zerg... because they have more bodies, more options, more ways to hard-counter because of it. 

 

These problems do occur in practice... they've occurred in other games... heck there's even a very popular game that will be released this coming year that is already facing some of the issues that will probably occur in this system, albeit in an accelerated manner because their swapping happens extremely frequently due to the nature of the game...

 

I've given you scenarios... just because i'm not saying 14 frost weavers will turn into 7 confessors and 7 rangers doesn't mean anything... these are design level elements that end up reaching out much further than just a few specific cases... they will impact the very meta and how the game is played... what type of gameplay will be emphasized, and that in turn will lead to the direction players take while learning how to play the game... 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Interesting interpretation. If you enjoy playing one class for example the Knight, then you can totally do that.

You can train all the Knight skills in the Knight Archetype tree and only train weapon and armor skills in the Combat portion of the General Skill trees. This would over a period of time give you a Knight who has all the statistical advantages the system provides(minus promotions), and you don't need to use VIP tickets.

 

However:

Maybe one day you decide it might be fun to have stealth on your Knight so train some stealth skills in the Exploration portion of the General Skill tress and then add a stealth Discipline to your kit. Or you fancy yourself a Scout Knight so you ditch all your plate gear, train the leather armor skills, train some scout skills in exploration and equip some scout Disciplines. The examples go on and on. This all leads to Knights who are very different from each other, and then they can promote. So the Stealthy Knight could use those same skills on a Crusader/Sentinel/Swordsman Vessels. 

 

Your "one" character really is your Crow. More skills means more options in what you could bring to battle as well as your utility.   

 

But it's not though. You are saying that when we make a character at the start of the game, if we die, we are going to lose that character and have to make or find a new one. This doesn't make any sense to me. Your character is your identity in a game, you are that character. Why make a character be some item that you are going to have to pretty much grind for to get a better one? Sorry but a character is not a piece of gear. That would be like saying that you, the person that you are as of now is just a shell and when you die your soul is going to go to another shell. But that is not you, yes it is still your soul in the shell. But people are not going to address you and interact with you the same. You are now a completely different person. You don't just go from shell to shell trying to find the best fit. The only best fit was the person you were before you dyed and you will never be that person again, even if you tried your hardest.

 

If the system was Your "one" character then you would just be that crow that has all the skills, progression, and gear. You would be whatever archetype you would be when you started the game. You would always look they way that you wanted when you started the game. But that is not what you are saying. You are saying that you are a only a name and if you die you are going to lose all of those things that made your character, you. I don't want to be another character I want to be the same one that I made and is my identity. You just aren't a name!

 

This system would be fine if it was only for the zones that have permadeath. Then yes, you won't be the same character, that one dyed. But you wouldn't want to lose everything that a player put into the game so you have this system where you have some of the progression saved to this crow (soul) and that player is going to have to find a new body. But they are never going to be that same character they were when they started. There are probably players that like playing like that and the system makes sense for them if they are to die in the permadeath zones. But it doesn't if you are a player that will never go into those zones. You want to be and are always the character that you made when you started. Forcing a system like this on to players that are not going to ever do the permadeath thing is only punishing them even more when they die. For me I read this and think will I'll make a character at the start and never play the game because if I ever die I will be losing the character that I am and that will be it for me. 

 

I don't think you understand that many players are very attached to their characters and telling them that you are going to have to become a new one when you die is not something that is acceptable.   

Edited by kuroaka

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I don't think you understand that many players are very attached to their characters and telling them that you are going to have to become a new one when you die is not something that is acceptable.   

I think it's one of the cons to this system... it's not going to have that level of attachment that the first gen mmos had... which isn't a dealbreaker for a lot of people... i personally think their current system will end up attracting more players overall... but it will be a different kind of player than I had hoped for the game primarily. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I'm squinting for the first time.  In Eve I had to earn the right to fly a certain ship and even then I'm not going to take a Titan for a joy ride as soon as I've learned how.  I'm not saying I was a total fan of Eve's skill progression system, but it did give you a chance to "earn" something (which was also some of its faults depending on who you ask).  From this announcement I can be any class, but only if the right conditions exist for me to be that class.

 

So if I consider that now you're trying to make me akin to a MOBA player (where I have access to all these playable things under the right purchasing/earning/rotation conditions) the only thing preventing me from playing the archetype I enjoy would be another players selection (usually) in that game.  So by MOBA game design I could still be a support even if another person chose support (would be a bit silly, but it could be done none-the-less).  I had a main account that maybe leveled or had skill/rune/vanity options before we jumped into a MOBA game where I controlled a character for the duration of the match only.  Those have a place, but they don't sustain my interest personally especially compared to MMOs from a depth perspective.

 

I did enjoy FFXIV's job system where I could choose to be another job if I just equipped a different weapon.  I'd have to level that one from scratch but I could do it all on one character without having to roll alts.  I dislike making alts (except maybe for bag space) so I loved that.  How I'm reading your announcement is that my ghostly spirit will inhabit certain corpses until they either decay or I die and lose it (depending on game modes) and hopefully I can go back to being a druid if I can find the right corpse.  In MMOs I enjoy the character creation process and building a reputation on my character in an MMO. "Go see Sardoni he can heal your group if you need it!"  "Go see Sardoni he can craft you that armor set!"  Then people come see me and I say that sorry until I find the right corpse to do the thing they want they'll have to wait.

 

And maybe they'll help me go hunt down the proper corpse so I can do the things they need, but in that moment I'm no longer playing the game I want to play as a customer... I'm doing an activity that will lead me to the game I want to play.  That right there is the core of my problem with this design.  At least in Eve when I was podded I could go to an NPC space station and acquire a basic ship if needed it (especially if I had it insured).  I don't see these "safeguards" just yet if you do plan to implement them. 

 

I don't think I'm really a fan of all this on paper, but I'm staying tuned.


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Been around the MMO Block...


Sardoni

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Because min/maxers learn what counters what....

 

Team B can switch and then all you have is hard-counter rock paper scissors... it's not particularly intuitive play. 

 

Also people will game whatever logistics are in place... if there are cooldown timers they'll create windows to put you on cd while they aren't... this is a form of tactical play... it just isn't very engaging...

Didn't they say during the stream that, more than likely, there will be designated areas which can be used to change Vessels. It's not 100% confirmed, but they are thinking of dealing with the idea of switching-on-the-fly.

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Because min/maxers learn what counters what....

 

Team B can switch and then all you have is hard-counter rock paper scissors... it's not particularly intuitive play. 

 

Also people will game whatever logistics are in place... if there are cooldown timers they'll create windows to put you on cd while they aren't... this is a form of tactical play... it just isn't very engaging...

Changing your entire body, class, skills, in game, on the fly, for a particular encounter, based on your previous experience, and whats available is not engaging?

 

We have very different ideas of what engaging means I think


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Didn't they say during the stream that, more than likely, there will be designated areas which can be used to change Vessels. It's not 100% confirmed, but they are thinking of dealing with the idea of switching-on-the-fly.

 

Yes, currently you can only change vessels in tombs on graveyards. 'Mobile tombs' (discipline?) are being looked at.


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I had a few concerns but after listening to the crowns and crows interview I am very confident in their approach to problems and their understanding of how players think and try to break the game and these types of systems. Overall I am really happy to see this decision, seeing a group all decked out in their max gear is going to be a sight to behold. Reminds me of rockin invuln/vanq gear in UO. Word spreads fast lol. Bring on the naked flamestrike death squads. Can't wait for this even more now.

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I think it's one of the cons to this system... it's not going to have that level of attachment that the first gen mmos had... which isn't a dealbreaker for a lot of people... i personally think their current system will end up attracting more players overall... but it will be a different kind of player than I had hoped for the game primarily. 

 

Yes, like a gateway drug for the hugely popular MOBA and FPS genres.  Unfortunately, it will also turn away some of the MMORPG enthusiast crowd.  I've whined a lot about the lack of permanence/decisions that matter in MMOs, but I am in the minority.  Convenience and spreadsheets are much more appealing to the majority of paying customers.

 

EDIT: We are losing something, but very few people seem to give a poorly made socks :wacko:

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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