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The Big Reveal: Crows and vessels - Official discussion thread

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Changing your entire body, class, skills, in game, on the fly, for a particular encounter, based on your previous experience, and whats available is not engaging?

 

We have very different ideas of what engaging means I think

For me engaging means you are presented with challenges and you have to use critical thinking skills + mechanical skills to overcome them...

 

To me it is not engaging to get into a hard-counter meta because i have all the tools available to me...


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Sorry but a character is not a piece of gear. That would be like saying that you, the person that you are as of now is just a shell and when you die your soul is going to go to another shell.

You mean... Reincarnation?

 

Or are you just saying:

wnd_f84ad17a3e230af55496de814757243f.jpg

Edited by Navtyr

Welcome the hunger

Todd is Love, Todd is Life.

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I think it's one of the cons to this system... it's not going to have that level of attachment that the first gen mmos had... which isn't a dealbreaker for a lot of people... i personally think their current system will end up attracting more players overall... but it will be a different kind of player than I had hoped for the game primarily. 

 

But this system isn't something that you just spring on people months after you have already got money from backers. This was not something that they said about when they made their pitch for the game. If it was I would have never gave them money. For me this system is a dealbreaker, I don't play MMOs like this. I have a character and that is who and how I play. I think they need to be giving refunds to backers that are not going to play the game at all if this is the system that they are going to force on everyone. It is fine if it was only going to be for players in the permadeath, but that is not the case.   

Edited by kuroaka

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Yes, like a gateway drug from the hugely popular MOBA and FPS genres.  Unfortunately, it will also turn away some of the MMORPG enthusiast crowd.  I've whined a lot about the lack of permanence/decisions that matter in MMOs, but I am in the minority.  Convenience and spreadsheets are much more appealing to the majority of paying customers.

Yea this is unfortunate because to be honest there are plenty of games coming out featuring all sorts of new and/or trending designs...

 

I was hoping crowfall would be that bridge that took the good from the old and the good from the new... and initially it really sounded like that... and heck even with the new combat announcement it sounded like it...

 

But slowly I am seeing a lot more of the new trends than some of the old things that were lost along the way because WoW enveloped the market. 

 

The sky hasn't fallen... i'll find crowfall enjoyable... it's just going to scratch a different gaming itch than I had hoped. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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But this system isn't something that you just spring on people months after you have already got money from backers. This was not something that they said about when they made their pitch for the game. If it was I would have never gave them money. For me this system is a dealbreaker, I don't play MMOs like this. I have a character and that is who and how I play. I think they need to be giving refunds to backers that are not going to play the game at all if this is the system that they are going to force on everyone. It is fine if it was only going to be for players in the permadeath, but that is not the case.   

If it's really a deal breaker, they've never been too shy about giving refunds.  Seems like it just takes a shift in thinking, though - you're playing the soul of a fallen hero pledged to the gods, not a mere mortal

 

Edit: To be clear, I'm not saying I necessarily like it, I haven't really made up my mind, but I see what they're going for, and it makes a lot of sense in a passive skill based system.  I feel like there should be a more... personable representation of your crow, though, that you can become attached to.

Edited by yamix

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That moment (among others) that you know you've made the right choice in backing the game.

 

But, did he actually write "custard that" or did he write eff that and the filter kicked in? Inquiring minds want to know. :)


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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Hey gang,

 

 

We knew this one would be a bit controversial, but we felt (and still feel) that it is the the best idea for the game overall.  Ever idea has pros and cons, obviously. We debated it (ad nauseum!) and kept coming back to it, because we felt like the pros heavily outweighed the cons.

 

 

A few notes and clarifications:

 

 

- No, we are not going to sell vessels in our shop.  You'll need to find them, craft them, or get them from other players.

 

 

- We expect a brisk trade economy between players.  This opens up / really expands some "occupations" (graverobbers, undertakers, necromancers, vessel hunting/transport/retrieval, runecrafting...)

 

 

 

A note to the RPers:

 

 

For those of who you are thinking about this from a roleplaying perspective (bless you!), keep in mind that there is a reason that I wanted to reveal this idea in a graphic-novel format.  The archetype narratives are (generally) written with the idea of the character's "first life" in mind -- if my origin was a Knight, that experience shaped my personality from the beginning of my "life" as a Crow.  How will I handle the idea of trading my freedom to the Gods for the promise of immortal life?  Now that I see what the deal entails, do I feel cheated?  How would I feel about the idea of changing mortal forms / bodies?  

 

 

Some individuals might find the idea of changing skins repellant (or at the least, extremely disquieting). I can imagine a personality type that would stick with their original body, repairing it and never wanting to leave it because of fear of the unknown (and, perhaps, fear of losing themselves.)

 

 

I can also imagine another personality type that has been doing this so long -- endless years of fighting for the Gods -- that they can barely recall their original life. More crow than mortal, they treat the vessels as disposable tools, never getting too attached to a body (or, quite likely, to anything other than the will to dominate.) 

 

 

I plan to explore these narrative threads quite a bit more in the future.

 

 

The system, as designed, offers flexibility to allow BOTH of these playstyles, and the wide spectrum in between.  If you want to attach yourself to one vessel, or one type of vessel, or a subset of vessels...  You can treat them as irreplaceable, or disposable.

 

 

"Crafting a unique, personal response to a new challenge or situations" is, IMO, extremely fertile ground for roleplaying.  Before you dismiss this as 'not good for my story,' I would challenge you to walk through the experience, and think about the ways that it might play out.  How would this change your outlook on the universe?  On the sanctity of life?  Your memories and relationships with others?  Your loyalty to the Gods?   I think if you give it a chance, you'll be surprised by the breadth of storytelling opportunities that this premise can offer.

 

 

 

One more note, to everyone: 

 

 

I want to say thanks for being (mostly) open to this idea.  We set out to take some design risks with Crowfall.  Every time we stray from the "normal" path of MMO design, two things happen: (1) some people aren't going to like it and (2) the knowledge space of MMO design expands a bit.  

 

 

On a positive note, even if you fall into group (1), you win.  When new things are tried, we clear out some of the fog of war of what is and isn't possible with these games, and future products get better as a result.  For all of Shadowbane's flaws, we took some real risks and a surprising number of them paid off.  Echoes of that game are still being felt across a handful of other games, and I'm extremely proud of that.

 

 

Thank you for giving us the freedom and the opportunity to try new things.  They may not all work, but we need to try.  What is the alternative? Another WOW clone? custard that.

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Todd

 

ACE

 

 

Will ACE be dropping vessels into the world or will they all have to be crafted? Maybe ACE can drop pieces? I ask because it might be a delicate act to balance ACE made versions and player made versions.

 

Thanks for the resolution Sir. Glad to hear they won't be cash shopped. Skins? Sure. 

 

From an RP perspective I could see some really deep stories coming from the idea. Reminds me of Eternal Warrior comic book. Good place for RPers to look and see how this concept has been handled story wise. 

 

Overall, like I said, being an alt addict this is right up my play style's alley.

Edited by tierless

I role play a wordsmith.

 

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I was hoping crowfall would be that bridge that took the good from the old and the good from the new... and initially it really sounded like that... and heck even with the new combat announcement it sounded like it...

 

This part.  Reviving old MMORPG features that were sadly left on the "cutting room floor" was/is a big motivator for me to invest in the vision.  Some of those things will still make it into CF, albeit potentially in a form that some will find distasteful.  Personally, I am simply not a fan of EVE or MOBAs.  


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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For me this system is a dealbreaker, I don't play MMOs like this. I have a character and that is who and how I play. 

 

Did you see Todd's note to the RPers on page 12 of this thread?

 

A note to the RPers:

 

For those of who you are thinking about this from a roleplaying perspective (bless you!), keep in mind that there is a reason that I wanted to reveal this idea in a graphic-novel format.  The archetype narratives are (generally) written with the idea of the character's "first life" in mind -- if my origin was a Knight, that experience shaped my personality from the beginning of my "life" as a Crow.  How will I handle the idea of trading my freedom to the Gods for the promise of immortal life?  Now that I see what the deal entails, do I feel cheated?  How would I feel about the idea of changing mortal forms / bodies?  

 

Some individuals might find the idea of changing skins repellant (or at the least, extremely disquieting). I can imagine a personality type that would stick with their original body, repairing it and never wanting to leave it because of fear of the unknown (and, perhaps, fear of losing themselves.)

 

I can also imagine another personality type that has been doing this so long -- endless years of fighting for the Gods -- that they can barely recall their original life. More crow than mortal, they treat the vessels as disposable tools, never getting too attached to a body (or, quite likely, to anything other than the will to dominate.) 

 

I plan to explore these narrative threads quite a bit more in the future.

 

The system, as designed, offers flexibility to allow BOTH of these playstyles, and the wide spectrum in between.  If you want to attach yourself to one vessel, or one type of vessel, or a subset of vessels...  You can treat them as irreplaceable, or disposable.

 

"Crafting a unique, personal response to a new challenge or situations" is, IMO, extremely fertile ground for roleplaying.  Before you dismiss this as 'not good for my story,' I would challenge you to walk through the experience, and think about the ways that it might play out.  How would this change your outlook on the universe?  On the sanctity of life?  Your memories and relationships with others?  Your loyalty to the Gods?   I think if you give it a chance, you'll be surprised by the breadth of storytelling opportunities that this premise can offer. 

Edited by Jah

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For me engaging means you are presented with challenges and you have to use critical thinking skills + mechanical skills to overcome them...

 

To me it is not engaging to get into a hard-counter meta because i have all the tools available to me...

 

You make me laugh. "because I have all the tools available to me".

​No you don't. Not even close. There's a lot more to battle than memorizing spreadsheets.

 

​You're cute though. Keep talking. It amuses me.


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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You make me laugh. "because I have all the tools available to me".

​No you don't. Not even close. There's a lot more to battle than memorizing spreadsheets.

 

​You're cute though. Keep talking. It amuses me.

One person's "a lot more to battle" is another person's snoozefest...

 

I've played plenty of hard-counter meta games... seen elements of it across many games... it's boring... The best competitive games (getting into the realm of esports which is the peak of competitive gaming) are the ones that give you constraints and make you adapt and outplay your opponent... not give you all the tools and have you sitting there just trying to out hard-counter each other. 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Loving this change, i think its great and quite frankly its exciting for me, looking forward to it. The devs said it all along, some of you are gonna love it others gonna hate it. Also nothing is in stone, this is PRE-ALPHA. If you enjoy playing 1 character then play 1, dont gotta force others into what you believe to be fun. I personally find it extremely boring to be forced on 1 character and i like the ability to change depending on the situation it creates some very interesting dynamics. When im commanding i like to play a certain class if ima roam i would like to play something more specialized for that role.

 

This doesn't force you to play multiple characters it simply gives you the option to, and that is generally more appealing to a larger crowed of people allowing further development of the game with more funds that come in, rather then catering so the super ultra hardcore of like 15 that will stay in the game after a short run, like certain mmos that i wont mention.  I think the necromancy aspect is pretty bad ass as well, I do hope though crafting good vessels till take a expert crafter and hard to get as well. 


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For me engaging means you are presented with challenges and you have to use critical thinking skills + mechanical skills to overcome them...

 

To me it is not engaging to get into a hard-counter meta because i have all the tools available to me...

 

You continue to use this term "hard counter" and I think either you don't understand the term or you have a very different sense of how this game will play than I do.  While some archetypes might have a significant advantage over others in a 1-on-1, I doubt that given two armies of 50 people one will beat to other no matter what solely because they have the right mix of archetypes to win.  Sure there will be better team comps, and some team comps that are favored against others, but player skill, tactics, and coordination will be pretty important too; claiming that "for any given army there exists a second army which hard counters the first based on composition alone" seems to imply a pretty simplified game.

 

Maybe I'm wrong though.  Maybe Crowfall will have incredibly simple and degenerate archetype balancing such that those sorts of hard counter compositions really exist.  In this hypothetical case, how is it a bad thing that players and teams can change their composition?  If you are prepping for battle and your scouts tell you that the enemy had the dreaded XYZ comp, you have some decisions to make.  Do you keep your current army, allowing you to attack faster but forcing you to change your tactics?  Do you delay so you can better prepare, perhaps allowing the enemy to gain ground?  If you do respec your army, the enemy might do the same, in which case your spies hopefully notice in time for you to react.  This sounds pretty deep and compelling to me, but hey, I like strategic and competitive gameplay.

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But this system isn't something that you just spring on people months after you have already got money from backers. This was not something that they said about when they made their pitch for the game. If it was I would have never gave them money. For me this system is a dealbreaker, I don't play MMOs like this. I have a character and that is who and how I play. I think they need to be giving refunds to backers that are not going to play the game at all if this is the system that they are going to force on everyone. It is fine if it was only going to be for players in the permadeath, but that is not the case.   

 

The system is basically a death penalty in easier rulesets. Which ruleset were you going to play in?

 

Yes the corpse decay on death, but you can repair it. It's an item like everything else.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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Some individuals might find the idea of changing skins repellant (or at the least, extremely disquieting). I can imagine a personality type that would stick with their original body, repairing it and never wanting to leave it because of fear of the unknown (and, perhaps, fear of losing themselves.)

 

 

I can also imagine another personality type that has been doing this so long -- endless years of fighting for the Gods -- that they can barely recall their original life. More crow than mortal, they treat the vessels as disposable tools, never getting too attached to a body (or, quite likely, to anything other than the will to dominate.) 

 

 

I plan to explore these narrative threads quite a bit more in the future.

 

 

The system, as designed, offers flexibility to allow BOTH of these playstyles, and the wide spectrum in between.  If you want to attach yourself to one vessel, or one type of vessel, or a subset of vessels...  You can treat them as irreplaceable, or disposable.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Todd

 

ACE

 

 

Thanks for your response.  I have a question, though--based on your statement can you tell us if the system will require a player to upgrade his/her vessel in order to be competitive?  Prior information sounds like that is, indeed, the case.  I ask because the language you use in this hopeful response is "allow" and "treat them as".  If a system is put in place for old-stick-in-the-muds that would allow us to remain competitive using our "original body" than this definitely changes my understanding of and enthusiasm for the new system.  Thanks!  


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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You continue to use this term "hard counter" and I think either you don't understand the term or you have a very different sense of how this game will play than I do.  While some archetypes might have a significant advantage over others in a 1-on-1, I doubt that given two armies of 50 people one will beat to other no matter what solely because they have the right mix of archetypes to win.  Sure there will be better team comps, and some team comps that are favored against others, but player skill, tactics, and coordination will be pretty important too; claiming that "for any given army there exists a second army which hard counters the first based on composition alone" seems to imply a pretty simplified game.

 

Maybe I'm wrong though.  Maybe Crowfall will have incredibly simple and degenerate archetype balancing such that those sorts of hard counter compositions really exist.  In this hypothetical case, how is it a bad thing that players and teams can change their composition?  If you are prepping for battle and your scouts tell you that the enemy had the dreaded XYZ comp, you have some decisions to make.  Do you keep your current army, allowing you to attack faster but forcing you to change your tactics?  Do you delay so you can better prepare, perhaps allowing the enemy to gain ground?  If you do respec your army, the enemy might do the same, in which case your spies hopefully notice in time for you to react.  This sounds pretty deep and compelling to me, but hey, I like strategic and competitive gameplay.

Having the right compositions at any group size when you have this many moving parts in a game is always going to be a huge advantage. 

 

Chess is not a simplified game, though there are hard-counters to certain situations...

 

It takes much more skill in my experience to learn to adapt and overcome challenges with more narrow constraints, than it does to just pick the right tool for the job when having a huge toolbox to select from. 

 

With the versatility of the system they are going to run with... you will end up seeing comp swapping become a major factor in battle... it's just not intuitive gameplay... its rock paper scissors...


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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