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The Big Reveal: Crows and vessels - Official discussion thread


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I think if hard counters exist to a significant (insurmountable) extent (in 1v1) then that's an indicator of a shallow (failed) combat system.

 

I main Zerk in Tera and (pre-broken-brawler) the most disadvantageous matchup for Zerk (imo) was versus Gunner. However, even in Zerk vs Gunner, Zerk could essentially force a stalemate against Gunner if they had the (player) skill (i.e. Gunner can't kill Zerk and vice versa).

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Hey gang,     We knew this one would be a bit controversial, but we felt (and still feel) that it is the the best idea for the game overall.  Ever idea has pros and cons, obviously. We debated it (

We have always intended for there to be a limit on number of campaigns an account can subscribe for a number of reasons.     Yes, we will more than likely apply a post filter to the camera, and no

Opening soon in an EK near yours!   BARON VICTOR VON FRANKENSTEIN'S USED BODY EMPORIUM   You can't beat Frank's meat!

This is about 3 pages of replies late, but isn't suggesting that this skill system as novel a bit disingenuous?  At its most generous, this is just an iteration on the base mechanics of EVE. This is not the groundbreaking decisions taken by JTodd and Wolfpack with Shadowbane. 

 

Perhaps just an IMO.  

 

Either way, hoping for the best and that the lessons of CCP and EVE get internalized by ACE.

 

Honestly, I don't know how to answer that.  You can make that argument about everything in gaming (or music, or film, or art...)

 

Minecraft was heavily inspired by Infiniminer.  EQ was heavily inspired by dikumud.  The SB city siege mechanic pre-dated LoL; does that mean I would claim that MOBAs aren't unique and innovative?  Not on your life.  At best, I'd like to think that SB was one small influence (of many) that led to that unique mix / genre.

 

Everything is built on the ideas of things that came before it.  Putting the puzzle pieces together in a unique way is what makes it unique.  Eve doesn't have Campaigns, or import/export, so the use of vessels is pretty different.... but is it different enough?  Personally, I think so.  and no other fantasy MMORPG that I know of has riffed on this mechanic AFAIK.

 

But you're certainly welcome to disagree, and I don't take offense at the suggestion that we lift good ideas from others before twisting them and making them our own.

 

Todd

ACE

J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

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My concerns:

 

Being V.I.P now gives more options per campaign.  Such options are great until they become expected of you.  Players with multiple archetypes skilled-up will have more value to guilds because of their ability to change vessels per the situational needs of the guild, and it will likely become expected that players have a tank, dps, and support archetype to "cover the bases" so the guild is never w/o a plethora of each archetype and role incase it becomes evident that certain archetypes fair better in certain situations like: sieges (attacking or defending), POI control, ambushing, or exploration.  There may come a time when a player is asked to change their archetype to accommodate the guild, a situation that players would never be placed in if they were limited to a single archetype for the duration of a campaign.

 

Crafting Alts are Gone.  Because skill progression has now been moved to the account level, and crafting skills are lumped into the "General" category of which you can only actively train one-per account.  You must now dedicate an entire account to the pursuit of crafting.  Granted, you can still passively skill-up an archetype (or three if you're V.I.P) but you will be foregoing the Combat and Exploration skills which also fall under the "General" category.  Ironically those combat skills in general will be beneficial to your various archetypes making the choice between crafting and combat even harder for the V.I.P crowd.  This definitely makes owning multiple accounts more lucrative that one account + V.I.P.

 

I don't care much for the idea of crafting and carrying vessels (bodies), though jumping from body to body sounds interesting.  Even for a fantasy game that strains credulity - why have inventory management be a thing at all if a Guinecean can carry around a Centaur body in his back pocket.  Doesn't the changing of vessels negate the permanence of decisions made at character creation like Advanatages and Disadvantages?

Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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Everyone's too stupid to realize that Crowfall is a Madden clone.

 

It's blatantly obvious but all of these fan boys will blindly defend the game regardless of what happens.

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How likely do you think it will be that zergs are operating at a loss compared to smaller guilds?

It depends. The zerg might need to hold multiple POIs to support their numbers. Smaller guilds might pick off the zerg's caravans. Smaller guilds may form an alliance to defeat the zerg.

 

If you are already admitting defeat to the zerg, claiming they will have the majority of the resources, then what does it matter if they do what you claim they will? They've already won anyway in your estimation.

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But this system isn't something that you just spring on people months after you have already got money from backers. This was not something that they said about when they made their pitch for the game. If it was I would have never gave them money. For me this system is a dealbreaker, I don't play MMOs like this. I have a character and that is who and how I play. I think they need to be giving refunds to backers that are not going to play the game at all if this is the system that they are going to force on everyone. It is fine if it was only going to be for players in the permadeath, but that is not the case.

 

You act like it's such a big deal but what's the difference?

 

- You have progression on your crow that doesn't go away

- you can customize the way you look

- you can click a few buttons and change your "class"

 

All just like any other MMO

 

So if you want you can essentially play the exact same character forever... The only difference is once in a while you have to repair or replace an item just like in other games... (In Crowfall the "item" is a vessel aka cadaver)

 

All this really did was add another item slot to your character. It's very cool thematically and adds another thing for people to collect/craft/sell etc but basically all of this is.. Another item slot. And a centralized UI for character progression.

 

Why are people freaking out?

Edited by Ziz

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Thanks for your response.  I have a question, though--based on your statement can you tell us if the system will require a player to upgrade his/her vessel in order to be competitive?  Prior information sounds like that is, indeed, the case.  I ask because the language you use in this hopeful response is "allow" and "treat them as".  If a system is put in place for old-stick-in-the-muds that would allow us to remain competitive using our "original body" than this definitely changes my understanding of and enthusiasm for the new system.  Thanks!  

 

Great question!

 

Blair and I talked about this idea a while back; we definitely want to make sure we support the players who just want to play a single character/vessel.  

 

Our thought was to allow you to use the crafting system to "re-architect" a vessel after-the-fact.  I don't see any reason why we can't allow you to upgrade your old vessel as an alternative to taking a new one (and get equal benefits, in doing so).  There would, of course, be a cost to do it : resources and time and the appropriate recipes/skills.  

 

Blair had a term for it that I can't recall ("mulching"?) -- the idea that you can scavenge parts from other Vessels to add life and power to your primary Vessel. The immediate image in my mind was our concept of D'Orion the Hunter, sitting on that throne of horns and eating a heart...

 

dorion.jpg

 

...and I thought "holy crap, that's dark and morbid and cool."

 

Todd

ACE

 

J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

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I can see pros and cons with this reveal. 

For me, the ayes outweigh the nays. 

 

I am also wondering if ... when and if our VIP's run out, will our crows still retain what we have learnt on the other 2 archetypes or will we revert totally back to just the one archetype? Just another thought for the melting pot.

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I can see pros and cons with this reveal. 

For me, the ayes outweigh the nays. 

 

I am also wondering if ... when and if our VIP's run out, will our crows still retain what we have learnt on the other 2 archetypes or will we revert totally back to just the one archetype? Just another thought for the melting pot.

 

You keep all the skill increases previously earned, but tracks 2 and 3 would halt.

 

Todd

ACE

J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

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Did you see Todd's note to the RPers on page 12 of this thread?

 

That says nothing about what they are going to allow you to do. I don't RP I just dislike the idea of not having the same character. I do not want to be changing characters to find new and better ones. I see this as to be honestly extremely pointless, you have a character that is your identity in game. Not being that same character all the time or not being able to get back that character is unacceptable to me. You are losing the whole point of playing an MMO to me and that is your identity. You work very hard to become a character in a game and for that not to matter at all is stupid. If they are going to allow for players to not use this system and have their character be the same after they die than that would be great. But they are not saying that at all, they seem to be only thinking about it. This system is only one way or no way and if they are not going to allow for people to get back their original character, I am not going to play it. It angers me that they only are saying this system now and not when they wanted money. It is pretty mess up that they make this pitch for a game that in all aspects is something that sounds awesome. Something that I have been wanting for a long time, but now add a system like this that is so off putting that I want my money back. How is alienating players who backed them a good thing?    

Edited by kuroaka
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You act like it's such a big deal but what's the difference?

 

- You have progression on your crow that doesn't go away

- you can customize the way you can look

 

 

So if you want you can essentially play the exact same character for ever... The only addition is once in a while you have to repair or replace an item just like in other games...

It's not just about your identity in relationship to your characters it's also about how you relate to others, especially people you don't know.  When you first meet people you try to put a name with a face.  Only in this case the name no longer has to be unique (only Crow's names are unique at the account level, Avatar's are not unique) and the face can change after every death.  Very hard to build relationships, reputation, and community with something as transitory as this, on top of the fact that there will be several dozen if not hundreds of campaigns running concurrently, decreasing the odds you'll ever cross paths with the same people again.  Who you know in RL will matter a lot, and people you meet in the game my as well be NPCs.  Unless there is a way for players to know each other at the Crow level, what you know is about as abstract as your forum ID.  Come find me in game.  Which raises and interesting question.  Who are we in the EK?  Can we assume any vessel we choose in the EK?

Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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i had a thought, if we can have so many vessels that our inventory space can hold, is it possible that vessels will populate your eternal kingdom, fill the roles of the hierarchy setup within your eternal kingdom if no players are living inside your kingdom. to give it that living world feeling.

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i had a thought, if we can have so many vessels that our inventory space can hold, is it possible that vessels will populate your eternal kingdom, fill the roles of the hierarchy setup within your eternal kingdom if no players are living inside your kingdom. to give it that living world feeling.

their will be thralls or souls that we collect in campaign worlds that help in the EKs with certain things. But whether or not they can use our vessels is unknown.. 

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If they are going to allow for players to not use this system and have their character be the same after they die than that would be great. But they are not saying that at all.

 

Actually, we are saying exactly that: you can use one character, and never change.  You can repair him (and not lose him) and upgrade him (and stay competitive), if that is how you want to play.

 

Todd

J Todd Coleman

ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.

Follow us on Twitter @CrowfallGame | Like us on Facebook

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kuroaka

 

you missed the part that you dont have to loose the said vessel you feel most attached to,  as you have your eternal kingdom, and campaigns set to vessel secure, just dont join the full risk campaigns where the vessel can be looted. which meets the needs of different player styles, some like full loot system, overs prefer no-loot system.

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That says nothing about what they are going to allow you to do. I don't RP I just dislike the idea of not having the same character. I do not want to be changing characters to find new and better ones. I see this as to be honestly extremely pointless, you have a character that is your identity in game. Not being that same character all the time or not being able to get back that character is unacceptable to me. You are losing the whole point of playing an MMO to me and that is your identity. You work very hard to become a character in a game and for that not to matter at all is stupid. If they are going to allow for players to not use this system and have their character be the same after they die than that would be great. But they are not saying that at all, they seem to be only thinking about it. This system is only one way or no way and if they are not going to allow for people to get back their original character, I am not going to play it. It angers me that they only are saying this system now and not when they wanted money. It is pretty mess up that they make this pitch for a game that in all aspects is something that sounds awesome. Something that I have been wanting for a long time, but now add a system like this that is so off putting that I want my money back. How is alienating players who backed them a good thing?    

 

You seem to think that having the option to change characters each time is required, rather than an option. Build up a stockpile of the vessel you need for the avatar you feel best captures your character. It really seems like nothing but a hollow shell of an appearance -- literally, a vessel in its truest definition of the word. If you keep the same vessel (in this case, copies of the same vessel) then there is no difference than any other mmo where you log in and log out as the same character. 

 

People are flipping out because more options have been added, and they're strange and untried, and so in their confusion and distaste for the unknown, they turn to anger and claim betrayal. Humans have an innate fear of the unknown; black people get rights to vote? That's different, I don't like different, so i'll fight it. An mmo offers more than one way to play the same character? That's different, I don't like different, so i'll fight it.

 

Come on. 

aka honeybear

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their will be thralls or souls that we collect in campaign worlds that help in the EKs with certain things. But whether or not they can use our vessels is unknown.. 

 

I think it would be a little awkward if they could.

 

"Hey look, there's my body walking by, possessed by that darn stubborn smith.."

 

However, some sort of cool morgue or hall of statues and/or coffins would be pretty cool. Getting to show off to your friends each of your "prized possessions" (as weird as that may sound)

 

"Yes, here is the vessel I used when I was but a babe, and here is the one I scavenged when I defeated JellyBob in the dregs.."

"The enemy has found me, Ulic, but the enemy knows only darkness. I know something that enemy does not… I know the Light." ~ Arca Jeth, Star Wars Legends

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It's not just about your identity in relationship to your characters it's also about how you relate to others, especially people you don't know.  When you first meet people you try to put a name with a face.  Only in this case the name no longer has to be unique (only Crow's names are unique at the account level, Avatar's are not unique) and the face can change after every death.  Very hard to build relationships, reputation, and community with something as transitory as this, on top of the fact that there will be several dozen if not hundreds of campaigns running concurrently, decreasing the odds you'll ever cross paths with the same people again.  Who you know in RL will matter a lot, and people you meet in the game my as well be NPCs.  Unless there is a way for players to know each other at the Crow level, what you know is about as abstract as your forum ID.  Come find me in game.  Which raises and interesting question.  Who are we in the EK?  Can we assume any vessel we choose in the EK?

I can see your pov here. I guess for some it will be an identity crisis.

I have no problem in the respect of killing faceless people (generically name generated Avatars). However, locating friends may well become an issue.

 

I'm not sure how this will pan out for close bonds in the community, apart from giving friends an out of game chat link. ;)

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That says nothing about what they are going to allow you to do. I don't RP I just dislike the idea of not having the same character. I do not want to be changing characters to find new and better ones. I see this as to be honestly extremely pointless, you have a character that is your identity in game. Not being that same character all the time or not being able to get back that character is unacceptable to me. You are losing the whole point of playing an MMO to me and that is your identity. You work very hard to become a character in a game and for that not to matter at all is stupid. If they are going to allow for players to not use this system and have their character be the same after they die than that would be great. But they are not saying that at all, they seem to be only thinking about it. This system is only one way or no way and if they are not going to allow for people to get back their original character, I am not going to play it. It angers me that they only are saying this system now and not when they wanted money. It is pretty mess up that they make this pitch for a game that in all aspects is something that sounds awesome. Something that I have been wanting for a long time, but now add a system like this that is so off putting that I want my money back. How is alienating players who backed them a good thing?    

 

Your identity in THIS game is an the spirit of an immortal hero, living life after life in the service of your god and lord. I think the RP implications of this great! Do you Roleplay as this arcane figure who is fully aware of themselves as a Crow, or as someone who forgets everything of their past lives when they inhabit a new body. You might roleplay the crow and the body as two distinct entities, with the body being only tacitly aware of its strange destiny.

 

As for maintaining a single vessel, it would appear that the more forgiving Campaign Worlds will allow you to regularly recover your body and re-inhabit it. If it does eventually break, you'll always be able to just craft a carbon copy and carry on as if nothing had changed. You're really just making a big deal out of something which is probably a good decision from the standpoint of the game as a whole.

Shadowbane - House Avari/Hy'shen
"Gimp elves get good elves killed." - Belina

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