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The Big Reveal: Crows and vessels - Official discussion thread

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From a lore standpoint this steps all over the limitations built into the archetype system.  If our memory as the Crow is being dropping into an empty vessel why are we limited by knowledge the archetype possessed while alive.  The archetype lore was used to justify limiting disciplines and wield types and abilities by archetype.  Why can't my Guinecean wield a bow? Oh, it's because Todd said that Guinecean developed gunpowder so had no need, but why does that matter now if the Guinecean vessel is just another item; my knowledge should trump any Guinecean cultural limitation.

 

Why is a Templar vessel any different than a Confessor  vessel or a Knight vessel, they are just human bodies, blank and without memories; what's special about the body that limits my power to influence it with my memories and my knowledge as the Crow?  Should I not be able to use abilities from all three archetypes simultaneously through any human body?  Explain through the lore how the new reveal can simultaneously degrade the archetype to being just a skill kit and your avatar to just an item, yet your cosmetic choice of body effects what abilities you are able to wield.  From the standpoint of a Crow I can see why different vessels would have varying physical parameters: like strength, speed, agility; but are certain physical shells inherently more capable of intellect, or magic. 

 

Archetypes are a race and class combination.  The vessels are only the race part of that equation.  Why?  Because they are just mortal and already dead physical bodies. So why is my class limited by my vessel?  If the Crow is what is imparting the knowledge why the limitation of class? Archetypes really cease to exist in this new lore paradigm, because a physical shell alone can not define your knowledge and your skills; those come from your experience, your culture, your choices and influences, which have been divorced from the bodies we are taking up as our own.  Only what we the Crows bring to the pairing, should influence your class, not the vessel.

I think it comes down to I have the knowledge of a knight but this confessor boddy lacks the strength of arm to control the blade as my experience dictates. While some one with the knowledge of confessor casting in a knight body lacks the connection to magic that a confessor body has.

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what are you guys even discussing at this point... p2w??

 

go play in the dregs.. no import, and good luck trading money for something (vessels included) without safe zones,  and with full loot + local banking, admitting that anyone has been able to stack enough poorly made socks to sell

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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Wanted to throw an idea into the fray reading about names and such on page 28 still catching up but this could be a great boon for infiltration if a vessel has the name and allegiances of its past owner. you show up and unless you blow it in interactions you could impersonate a person you killed. An interesting idea on the eler murmurs on espionage and such.


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I think it comes down to I have the knowledge of a knight but this confessor boddy lacks the strength of arm to control the blade as my experience dictates. While some one with the knowledge of confessor casting in a knight body lacks the connection to magic that a confessor body has.

Confessor bodies and Knight bodies are shockingly the same, they are both humans and once dead, they are devoid of the remnants of their previous life.  The Knight's body might be a little more muscled, and probably more scarred, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to swing a blade as a Confessor or wield a shield, if I the Crow knew how. What connection to magic does a dead body possess?  How does what the confessor did in life persist into death? 


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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Wanted to throw an idea into the fray reading about names and such on page 28 still catching up but this could be a great boon for infiltration if a vessel has the name and allegiances of its past owner. you show up and unless you blow it in interactions you could impersonate a person you killed. An interesting idea on the eler murmurs on espionage and such.

I dig it


I role play a wordsmith.

 

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what are you guys even discussing at this point... p2w??

 

go play in the dregs.. no import, and good luck trading money for something (vessels included) without safe zones,  and with full loot + local banking, admitting that anyone has been able to stack enough poorly made socks to sell

Trade tokens in the EK... get goods in the campaign...

 

Gee I wonder if people with ample stuff in campaigns will try to sell it for vip tokens... hmmmm


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Trade tokens in the EK... get goods in the campaign...

 

Gee I wonder if people with ample stuff in campaigns will try to sell it for vip tokens... hmmmm

I believe you can only trade VIP in the EK so any P2W is still subject to import rules keeping people on even footing.

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Confessor bodies and Knight bodies are shockingly the same, they are both humans and once dead, they are devoid of the remnants of their previous life.  The Knight's body might be a little more muscled, and probably more scarred, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to swing a blade as a Confessor or wield a shield, if I the Crow knew how. What connection to magic does a dead body possess?  How does what the confessor did in life persist into death? 

This is why I asked for a new set of graphic images/charts to show how the new single Crow concept will alter the existing knowledge of character creation. Such a drastic change of character concept must bring with it a new set of selections at character creation. I'd imagine universal core stats on the Crow, with fine-tuning of stats on the vessel. 

 

Devs, feedback, plz?

 

Iri~

 

PS: I told my teen about this reveal. He thought for a minute, nodded, and said "Human transmutation, cool; the pagans and Wiccans will like it". 

Edited by Iridian ShadowWeaver

Click your profile name>Click Manage Ignore Prefs>Find "Add a new user to my list" at the bottom of the page>Type in a username>Check options>Save Changes>Silence is bliss.

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Wanted to throw an idea into the fray reading about names and such on page 28 still catching up but this could be a great boon for infiltration if a vessel has the name and allegiances of its past owner. you show up and unless you blow it in interactions you could impersonate a person you killed. An interesting idea on the eler murmurs on espionage and such.

 

I like this as well, but expanding on it..

 

What if within the campaigns you could only see the vessel's name, and not crow name? That would also help the espionage...

The only other problem is if they want to pm you or get you on TS. Then it's all over :P


"The enemy has found me, Ulic, but the enemy knows only darkness. I know something that enemy does not… I know the Light." ~ Arca Jeth, Star Wars Legends

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Here is yet another potential issue with the new system that I think should be brought up.  Let's say that I spend a lot of time concentrating on my one archetype.  I stay in the outer bands, because I've decided that I will not risk what I consider to be my character (this first and favorite archetype).  It is a bummer that I have to stay there, but I refuse to have this Vessel destroyed or taken.  Through campaigns, crafting and economy I advance and at a certain point I have the current, most advanced archetype upgrade (according to my playstyle).  All of a sudden, I am locked out of the outer bands because the campaign rule set says you can't bring in "purple" archetypes.  My only option then are the inner bands, which I refuse to play because, again, I am one of those stick-in-the-mud gamers who have taken the play option that ACE has allowed for players like me.  This is a particular problem for those who really only want to invest in one character and have an attachment to said character.  The option that ACE allowed is now 100% useless--functionally a non-option.  What do I do then?  Quit CF? :mellow: 

 

This is only speculation, but there are several potential problems with this system that treats archetypes as gear.  The problem is not insurmountable, but ACE, (if they chose to) will have to be careful not to alienate those whom they have set out to include, even if those players do not fully embrace all aspects of the current system.    


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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That is a good point, Regulus.. but perhaps there will be some Dregs/Shadows without corpse looting rules. Otherwise, you may need to make another "character", that is the same as the first, but weaker.

 

Or maybe you would just have to bring weaker gear (then normal) to compensate? I know in some games there is a "rating" (I'll call it combat-rating, or CR) where certain missions are "rating" locked at <=500 CR. Say your Char is 300 CR, well then you can only bring 100 CR primary & secondary weapons, versus someone who could bring a 200 CR char and 150 CR primary & secondary weapons.


"The enemy has found me, Ulic, but the enemy knows only darkness. I know something that enemy does not… I know the Light." ~ Arca Jeth, Star Wars Legends

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Here is yet another potential issue with the new system that I think should be brought up.  Let's say that I spend a lot of time concentrating on my one archetype.  I stay in the outer bands, because I've decided that I will not risk what I consider to be my character (this first and favorite archetype).  It is a bummer that I have to stay there, but I refuse to have this Vessel destroyed or taken.  Through campaigns, crafting and economy I advance and at a certain point I have the current, most advanced archetype upgrade (according to my playstyle).  All of a sudden, I am locked out of the outer bands because the campaign rule set says you can't bring in "purple" archetypes.  My only option then are the inner bands, which I refuse to play because, again, I am one of those stick-in-the-mud gamers who have taken the play option that ACE has allowed for players like me.  This is a particular problem for those who really only want to invest in one character and have an attachment to said character.  The option that ACE allowed is now 100% useless--functionally a non-option.  What do I do then?  Quit CF? :mellow:

 

This is only speculation, but there are several potential problems with this system that treats archetypes as gear.  The problem is not insurmountable, but ACE, (if they chose to) will have to be careful not to alienate those whom they have set out to include, even if those players do not fully embrace all aspects of the current system.    

 

I'm an not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure the problem you pose contains the solution in itself...

 

If you play the outer bands (where vessels are safe) then I'm fairly certain the import rules would not prohibit bringing in a certain quality of anything, let alone vessels. In fact I can't remember anything so far about quality of items being a factor in import, quantity absolutely, but quality I have not seen any limitations put on or mentioned so far.


Crazy ex-girlfriends are like a box of chocolates...

 

They'll kill your dog.

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Also, a question;

 

Will we be able to craft bodies from raw, non recycled (i.e. scavenged from other dead-bodies) parts? As in to craft a body without any part being used by another soul (or spirit), but rather a "pure" vessel crafted from "pure" materials, in a non-frankenstein way?

 

Obviously a bit of a leap, but I think it would create a nice alternative to those that don't like the semi-"necromancy" of inhabiting a previously used body, or a body made from parts of a previously used.. body...

 

Yep.

 

(Also, "munching" on "mulched" parts is a little disgusting. I'd rather take my "skin" off and fix it, tyvm.  :wacko: )


"The enemy has found me, Ulic, but the enemy knows only darkness. I know something that enemy does not… I know the Light." ~ Arca Jeth, Star Wars Legends

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Advantages and disadvantages ("talents and traits") should be linked to the crow, IMHO.

 

Vessels will be changed many times, at least in the hard campaigns, and I don't think we're ever going to check if X vessel has Y trait... we'll just use whatever we can at the moment and hopefully get the one with the higher stats.

 

EDIT: Also, I think there should be like 3 names available to each Crow, to choose when using a Vessel.

  1. These are genetic advantages / disadvantages (a/d). It makes more sense for them to be linked to the meat.
  2. Changing Archetypes changes the a/d I would want to use because they raise/lower attributes that are greater priority for some archetypes and lower priority for other archetypes. 

Honestly, you are the type of person that is much to competitive, has zero compassion for other people and think you are better than everyone else. You likely love to troll people on a day to day bases to get others angry and laugh about it. You make playing any online game unfun for everyone else.  -Kuroaka

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I'm an not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure the problem you pose contains the solution in itself...

 

If you play the outer bands (where vessels are safe) then I'm fairly certain the import rules would not prohibit bringing in a certain quality of anything, let alone vessels. In fact I can't remember anything so far about quality of items being a factor in import, quantity absolutely, but quality I have not seen any limitations put on or mentioned so far.

Could be.  However, now that Vessels are items, I am not so sure there won't be some restriction, even in the outer bands.  The only problem with no restrictions on archetypes is that the outer bands will, probably, contain the majority of new players.  Therefore, it puts ACE (and potentially players like me) in a problematic situation.  All that needs to happen is for ACE to put something that competitive guilds want in those bands and they will bring a superior force of advanced Vessels to them and farm them (really ticking off new and potential long term customers).  This is without dispute as far as I am concerned.  However, if they don't put some sort of resource worth having in those bands, then I am in the same situation as far as investing in the non-option option--time to quit CF.      


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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Could be.  However, now that Vessels are items, I am not so sure there won't be some restriction, even in the outer bands.  The only problem with no restrictions on archetypes is that the outer bands will, probably, contain the majority of new players.  Therefore, it puts ACE (and potentially players like me) in a problematic situation.  All that needs to happen is for ACE to put something that competitive guilds want in those bands and they will bring a superior force of advanced Vessels to them and farm them (really ticking off new and potential long term customers).  This is without dispute as far as I am concerned.  However, if they don't put some sort of resource worth having in those bands, then I am in the same situation as far as investing in the non-option option--time to quit CF.      

 

You could use that same argument for weapons, armor, resources, mounts, caravans, etc... No system is going to perfectly cater to every single persons first preference... But you could always ditch your shiny vessel and your shiny sword/armor/mount and come into the high reward bands just like everyone else. No one is forcing you to play any certain way, the only restrictions you have you place on yourself.

 

Forgot to add, they have specifically said it will be a rather niche audience. So perhaps putting "players like you" in a situation that is not perfectly suited to your best and first interest isn't on the forefront of what they are trying to do here. Yes we want lots of people to play the game, but we don't want to bend the game to suit everyone individually because you end up with a WoW clone.

Edited by buckly4u

Crazy ex-girlfriends are like a box of chocolates...

 

They'll kill your dog.

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Wow.. epic thread and I've only gone in about 20 pages but one of the first thing that came to my mind, other than this is a great system, is the cash store vessel options?

 

Will there be vessels on cash shop?  Going with the information we've had since early concept was that there should be no real difference between lootable/ingame items and market/cash shop items.  If this is so, are we going to see **UBER Egyption Man 'o Gods** Vessels starting @ 1000 AC Coins or $19.99?

 

Just asking cause I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread.  Don't hate.


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You could use that same argument for weapons, armor, resources, mounts, caravans, etc... No system is going to perfectly cater to every single persons first preference... But you could always ditch your shiny vessel and your shiny sword/armor/mount and come into the high reward bands just like everyone else. No one is forcing you to play any certain way, the only restrictions you have you place on yourself.

 

And here we have it!  If ACE allows for the single character option, they have to support it, or it is truly a non-option.  Do not say "Sure, you can do that!" and at the same time make that declaration untenable.    

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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