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The Big Reveal: Crows and vessels - Official discussion thread

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It may be better indeed, it could be something really awesome that players will enjoy. 

 

Let's hope that the players attracted by it will outnumber those who find this idea repulsive.

This will most likely be the case but doesn't that kinda go against the niche game mentality? 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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All the angst over paper dolls and names. You can put me in all white armor and name me TK-421, I can roleplay it, "relate" to it, "connect" with it and win with it. Never thought I'd say this, but get good.

 

MMORPGs are unique in many ways, one of which is their roots in PnP and MUDs. A large base of the genre came from those places and likes to continue experiencing them in MMORPGs which they view as the next evolution of PnP and MUDs. 

 

On the flip side many PVPers hail from FPS, RTS and other VS type games. These types are less into the lore/rp stuff and seem to be more in line with "I just want to fight". 

 

I can agree and disagree with things from both sides.


I role play a wordsmith.

 

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This will most likely be the case but doesn't that kinda go against the niche game mentality? 

 

Well I doubt that the developers made this big change just to get more people... It's an extremely risky move they've made that could certainly pay off, but there's no guarantee, and this risk could not be justified only to get more players interested in the project.

 

I'd qualify the new design as even more niche than the previous one : it's a pretty original idea and not everyone will like it. It differs a lot to the traditional MMORPG character progression.

 

I'm not really in favor of niche games vs. more popular ones. It all depends on the quality of the game, innovation, development team, etc. I follow Crowfall mostly because of that. And because it's a Throne War MMO, and by "war", I read "large and epic battles". I see no reason to go too much niche since I want to have as many concurrent players as it may be beneficial for the game.

Edited by courant101

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And that is me, really. Whatever game I'm in, I've always PvPd, I've just never focused on it or been great at it. I contribute. Sometimes by crafting, sometimes by fighting, sometimes by patching you back up after (Droid Engineer/Musician ftw!), sometimes by blockade running the stuff we need to keep on fighting, but I'm always helping out.

 

And the Crow/Vessel system will have no bearing on that whatsoever, since it doesn't matter at all what my face looks like. Might even help in some of those jobs.

 

 

Seems like you're a solid player and you grasp the different needs of a guild and of an mmorpg. 

 

You looking for a guild? 

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You wrote : "You can put me in all white armor and name me TK-421, I can roleplay it, "relate" to it, "connect" with it and win with it."

 

I answered : "I guess if more players were like you, developers could easily save a lot of money by ignoring completely every aspects of role play and immersion."

 

So my conclusion was that if everyone were like you, not caring about the character appearance or other features to facilitate players' immersion, developers could save money by cutting on those costs. Players would create their own immersive experience by themselves, using their imagination to fill the "gaps", like we were doing in role playing games 20 years ago.

 

It's not really the trend though. How I see it is that us players we've been used to not use much our capacities (imagination, creativity, self immersion, innovation...) to create our own experience in the game with our own stories, personages, quests... 

 

Ah, thank you. I thought you were saying that I was unappreciative of lore, a fully fleshed world, etc. I misunderstood.

​To be clear, if I have a character to customize, I will. I just don't need to.

 

Oh, and nobody has made a comment on TK-421? Really? I expected better of this crowd. :P

Edited by bairloch

I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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Ah, thank you. I thought you were saying that I was unappreciative of lore, a fully fleshed world, etc. I misunderstood.

​To be clear, if I have a character to customize, I will. I just don't need to.

 

Oh, and nobody has made a comment on TK-421? Really? I expected better of this crowd. :P

Yes-Yes, the first trooper they jumped on the death star.

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Well I doubt that the developers made this big change just to get more people... It's an extremely risky move they've made that could certainly pay off, but there's no guarantee, and this risk could not be justified only to get more players interested in the project.

 

I'd qualify the new design as even more niche than the previous one : it's a pretty original idea and not everyone will like it. It differs a lot to the traditional MMORPG character progression.

 

I'm not really in favor of niche games vs. more popular ones. It all depends on the quality of the game, innovation, development team, etc. I follow Crowfall mostly because of that. And because it's a Throne War MMO, and by "war", I read "large and epic battles". I see no reason to go too much niche since I want to have as many concurrent players as it may be beneficial for the game.

I see the change (other than a nice flavor) is a way to overcome the humdrum leveling of basic skills when you want to try something new or a new archetype comes out.  It is also pretty slick where they can make campaigns that put some archetype limitations on and people can still have some investment even if they have never played one of the allowed archetypes.

 

As a dabbler in RPGs like Eclipse Phase and The Strange, and as a huge MMORPG alt-a-holic, I really like this system!

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Well I doubt that the developers made this big change just to get more people... It's an extremely risky move they've made that could certainly pay off, but there's no guarantee, and this risk could not be justified only to get more players interested in the project.

 

I'd qualify the new design as even more niche than the previous one : it's a pretty original idea and not everyone will like it. It differs a lot to the traditional MMORPG character progression.

 

I'm not really in favor of niche games vs. more popular ones. It all depends on the quality of the game, innovation, development team, etc. I follow Crowfall mostly because of that. And because it's a Throne War MMO, and by "war", I read "large and epic battles". I see no reason to go too much niche since I want to have as many concurrent players as it may be beneficial for the game.

 

While I agree with you, this totally was the tipping point for me. I have been following Crowfall for a bit, but had yet to see anything that made me want to back it early. Don't get me wrong I had fully planed on getting it when it released, I had just convinced myself that I wouldn't back a game early unless it really struck a chord with me. On Dec 29th they convinced me, and I doubt I was the only one.

 

I am quite excited for the system itself and this is pretty cool from an overall theme standpoint as well which is just good design all around. That itself its the main reason I agree with you, it seems too well designed to be a ploy to get more people backing.


My name is Toothbrush, Scourge of the local pond, King of this tree stump, and future leader of, "The Irregulars".

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This thread reminds me what J Todd said months ago : https://youtu.be/hRII_7KZetE?t=7m11s

Great find Courant! Gosh I'd almost forgotten it.

 

At first I was dismissive about any arguments against the crow/vessel. However, now I've had time to process the ramifications it will make to my own individual game play, I'm finding it will certainly affect me. I'm just not sure how much yet, since I had planned to spend most of my time in the Dregs.

 

The time sink in maintaining gear and vessels may become a huge pain in the rear, unless I can run a 2nd account with a dedicated crafter on it to help keep me more self reliant. Ofc not everyone will have this problem as they are not me, but this system will affect everyone in some way.


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Great find Courant! Gosh I'd almost forgotten it.

 

At first I was dismissive about any arguments against the crow/vessel. However, now I've had time to process the ramifications it will make to my own individual game play, I'm finding it will certainly affect me. I'm just not sure how much yet, since I had planned to spend most of my time in the Dregs.

 

The time sink in maintaining gear and vessels may become a huge pain in the rear, unless I can run a 2nd account with a dedicated crafter on it to help keep me more self reliant. Ofc not everyone will have this problem as they are not me, but this system will affect everyone in some way.

 

Yea... If there's a relatively small difference of power between default and high quality vessels, then it's not really an issue for me even in the Dregs, I don't mind being slightly less powerful than those who spend a lot of time or money on gears.

 

If it turns out badly, I'll head to the outer bands, there at least I will be able to focus on what I enjoy : PvP and player interaction.

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Yea... If there's a relatively small difference of power between default and high quality vessels, then it's not really an issue for me even in the Dregs, I don't mind being slightly less powerful than those who spend a lot of time or money on gears.

 

If it turns out badly, I'll head to the outer bands, there at least I will be able to focus on what I enjoy : PvP and player interaction.

Having said that ... it could well force many into the outer bands.


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This thread reminds me what J Todd said months ago : https://youtu.be/hRII_7KZetE?t=7m11s

 

Which is exactly what I love about forums. The digestions and regurgitation of new concepts. I'm always impressed by how I can feel like I "get" and idea then someone says X and X blows my mind and I see it from a whole new angle. Its always energizing. 


I role play a wordsmith.

 

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Remember this is totally opinion, and no I don't think my opinion is in the majority, nor do I think the reveal will have a negative impact on the game's success.

 

Game Design Reasons:

•Vessels are the only item that gives me concern about the power curve because they are not just one more item; because they influence skill caps, disciplines, promotions, as well as stats, in addition to offering the flexibility to change archetype mid-campaign.

 

​Piapiac -Still just one item, all-be-it an important one.  How is swapping vessels any different than the community push to have more than one character in a campaign any different other than the intended benefit of the vessel system?  Here is what I see: players now have choices and are not completely locked into them (causing campaign abandonment if unsatisfied by the archetype)

 

I personally was not pushing for more than one character per campaign, though a lot of people definitely wanted that flexibility, and now they'll get it but only in the form of an item.  My objection is too much value placed on a single item, and it becoming the secondary if not primary objective for each and every campaign.  I think campaign abandonment is a legitimate concern but not because people didn't like the archetype they started the campaign as, but because they wanted to quit a seemingly unwinnable campaign.

 

•Because they are the single most valuable player-held item, and also represent your avatar; players will spend an inordinate amount of time fretting-over: finding, maintaining, upgrading, swapping, and banking vessels.  That focus, as already expressed on the forums by fans of the reveal, creates a Pokémon-like meta that detracts from other areas of the game.

 

Piapiac - Again, no different then creating alts, but now you do not have to waste as much time leveling the standard fair or skills and can focus on the archetype specific.
Shadowfang - IDK what exactly you mean by "Pokemon-like meta", and the reason I say that is because it has already been confirmed that beast-taming is going to be in the game, and that seems far more pokemon-like than changing bodies, lol. No need to explain, I just thought it was funny :P

 

@Piapia - Actually alts could be one-hundred percent different from each other, while under the new account level progression all archetypes will share half their skill count, which is intentional to force people to dedicate a whole account to crafting, which is only a problem because players are allowed more than one character per campaign.  It doesn't change my feeling that people will spend a lot of time managing the vessel system for maximum gain, instead of playing the already revealed game systems. 

@Shadowfang - I just mean it will be a collection game for some; you can't foresee people wanting one of each archetype, and then steadily over time upgrading each or stacking-up multiples of each?

 

•It's contradictory to say that vessels will be just one more class of item, yet somehow they will single-handedly prop up the crafting economy.  Would adding jewelry, or cloaks, or sheaths add substantially to the economy?

 

Piapiac - In every game, something tends to stand out.  The trick here is not to jump to conclusions, but to see how unique each type of crafting turns out to be.  What is unknown is the skill curve.  Vessel put skill limitations on them, but how does swordsmanship on the knight vessel quality-to-quality benefit compared to th increase in quality of a weapon?  We do not know yet.  That is the balance ART needs to work on.
Shadowfang - I think everything will be substantial, but only if selective mastery is a thing. There will definitely be people specializing in vessel-crafting, and said people might create alt vessels for their personal use to master other forms of crafting. The defining factor, in my opinion, will be whether or not it's super easy or tasking to switch vessels. If it's super-easy, then there may definitely be issues with the economy seeing as all a crafter has to do is continually swap bodies to change specializations, and they don't need the "RIGHT THE F*** NOW" mentality that fighters in the field have.

 

The account level progression does more for crafters than having another item to craft, but it's a double edged sword in my opinion, because it's rare that people will fill a role they don't want to play just because they are in short supply, but then again it could be relatively painless to "skill-up" a crafter, depending on how recipes are handled (just buy a 2nd account).  So many factors like the speed of gear/vessel degradation, the abundance of raw materials, and the speed and fun of crafting will go into determining the golden ratio of crafters-to-combatants.  But I wouldn't assume that more people will dedicate a whole account to crafting just because crafters are needed. 

 

•Having to go to what amounts to a character select or character creation after each death sounds disruptive to gameplay and immersion breaking.

 

Piapiac - Says who?  And how is this any more immersion breaking than dying and respawning to run to a corpse?  In fact, this is more immersive given the backstory to the crow-soul
Shadowfang - I guess that depends on how easily you're killed, but it's certainly a valid point.

 

We have to travel from the point where we died, to the nearest graveyard in crow form, then we are faced with a three-way choice, only one of which (having your god restore your vessel) is quicker than a corpse run. The other two options require you to either select or make a vessel, and yes presets could speed this up, but I don't want to see a character select/creation screen after just suffering a defeat, I want to get back in the action.  After getting back in a vessel, you then get to corpse run back to where you died, if you are hopeful your old body still has loot on it, or you just need to get back to what you were doing prior to death.

 

•Having vessel decay represented only as a stat on a item will fail to sell the concept.  If they are committed to dark imagery I think they should go all-in with rotting corpses, dismemberments, and crafted vessels that look like stitched together abominations.

 

Piapiac - I agree, but I bet this comes more with skins and other cosmetic items.  Not everyone wants to play Frankenstein's monster, and since appearance has no game stat bearing it is a good option for the cash shop.
Shadowfang - YES! Frankenstein this s***! I would love to see decaying fighters in the battlefield! Heck, how about vessels that are falling apart start to take severe debuffs? Been stitched back together too many times? Can't run as fast! How many times has that arm been recycled? Can't hit as hard! OMG YOU'RE HEAD IS HANGING ON BY A THREAD! Intelligence drop :D

 

Additionally I want the ability to burn corpses, destroy opposing deity altars, and sanctify graveyards to prevent reanimation.  All is fair in war right? 

 

•I have yet to hear an explanation for how the Import Embargo works.  How is it different from your character's inventory: when, where, and how is it accessed and are the items in it subject to the same durability and loot rules as items in your inventory.

 

Piapiac - I believe there are videos and posts going back to the kickstarter a year ago that explains the embargo system.  Short version: when starting a campaign, the ruleset dictates what you can bring with you from your EK into the campaign: gold, resources, equipment, even archetypes are possible.  Everything you cannot bring in with you will need to be gained in-campaign through gathering, crafting, finding and stealing/spoils.

 

I know how importing and exporting work, I have been following the game since before the KS; the reveal says that in a graveyard you can possess a vessel that's in your Import Embargo.   The Export Embargo is a location that must be reached in the CW to be accessed, but in the reveal the Import Embargo isn't implied to have such limitations. 

  1. Why would the items you import not just be automatically moved to your inventory, and as such be vulnerable to degradation and loss?
  2. How long can vessels remain in your Import Embargo, the entire duration of the campaign?
  3. While in the Embargo are they safe from durability loss and looting?  If the answer is yes that's a potential problem.
  4. What about other items in the Import Embargo, can they be accessed from anywhere on the map?

 

•We were told that one of the added benefits of the Dying Worlds besides being a hard reset, would be the ability to test new rule sets through Attributes and Modules, and a large chunk of the big reveal could have been tested first as a rule-set.  Why use iterative development for combat but not a system like this?

 

Piapiac - Why restrict yourself to full reset every time which will get tedious?  They could always put in a ruleset limiting vessels to certain "quality"  Their system is about flexibility, not rigid thinking.

 

I think there is a misunderstanding here; I am not talking about vessel attributes but Campaign Attributes and Campaign Modules.  If this could have been tested as a rule set in part or in whole, and they opted not to, then it makes me wonder what, if anything, will they ever deem necessary to test at the campaign level.  See below.

 

From the FAQ:
Modules allow us to make vastly different play experiences, even within Campaigns of the same type and will allow players to pick Campaigns that further suit their playstyle.  This system also allows our design team to take some risks and try out some ideas that would never be possible in a traditional MMO.  Settings that work (and are fun!) can be repeated, and ones that are not as much fun can be retired.

 

•There are other ways to add account level progression without doing away with alts or creating the Crow narrative.  Alts could have been unified together through a guild, deity, faction, or family system and shared some amount of skill progression in a skill tree that still required tough and permanent decisions at the archetype/character level, without making all characters on one account share the exact same half of their progression.

 

Piapiac - You give a narrative, but ultimately nothing different.  The crow-soul really seems, IMO, to fit the story they are trying to tell.

 

I'll agree to disagree on this point.

 

•Too many temporal and transitory systems that divide the hardcore and the casual and further differentiate between play-styles may not be good for long-term retention.

 

Piapiac - A bit too obscure a comment to really respond to.  However, they have already begun to address the difference between a new player and a veteran in terms of power.  This is an issue for all games that have a sustained/persistent effect.  You have to give people progression and a sense of accomplishment if you want to sustain their time.

 

Temporary worlds, temporary bodies, temporary attachment. There it is, the new slogan :)  It's just like Game of Thrones, your favorite character will inevitably die.

 

Lore Reasons:

 

•The Crow narrative presented by the comic book seems shallow compared to the other lore I've read up to this point, and yes we've always been "crows" but it was always metaphorical because of the scavenging of the dying worlds.  You wouldn't say something is "like a crow" when it actually is a crow, and when someone asks you why the game is called Crowfall, will to tell them it's because your character is a literal crow or a metaphorical crow?

 

Shadowfang- I guess some metaphors evolve into the literal, who knew? But I do see your point, it does lead to narrative confusion. But, since the game is only a year in the works and no where near on its feet, I'm not sure we can necessarily call them out on it. Maybe if we were in beta, but all we've had so far is pre-alpha combat testing, and absolutely nothing to do with lore has been added yet, not even siege.

 

Metaphors are metaphors because they are not literal, usually denoted be the words "like" and "as".  We are like crows, it's as if we are scavengers for the gods.  I bet they got tired of explaining the game's name, and decided a literal crow was an easier explanation. 

•The Crow narrative also breaks the lore underpinnings for the Archetypes.  The archetypes are a hard-locked combination of race and class rooted by the lore.  Now that our characters can swap race as an item but retain all of our knowledge why are we class limited in abilities and wield types?  Why can our Crows do with one body what they can't do with another?

 

Shadowfang - Now in this case I actually truly disagree with you. We retain the knowledge, yes, but if I may offer another viewpoint: It's the same spirit that transferred from a Knight to a Confessor. Do you really think that more frail, magic-focused body is going to be able to wield a sword nearly as effectively? Do you really think the Knight, whose body has never been tested by the flames of religious magic is going to be able to shoot fireballs without taking backlash? The knowledge may be there, but the bodies are limited all the same. But in the case of more similar Archetypes, such as the Myrmidon and the Champion, who are both 2H-wielding giant monstrosities, I could see your point a bit better. Although I doubt a Frostweaver, a Fae character who's born ability is to use ice magic, will ever be able to wield the fire magic of a Confessor, and in their case they are both spellcasters with almost fewer similarities than my Knight/Confessor example.

 

Thanks for meeting me half-way and attempting to see things from my perspective.  Vessels being limited by their physical abilities I can see, but I am not sure what a magic-focused body is.  I thought magic was the realm of intellect or w/e stat they are using to increase magical prowess, and if you point to the decaying brain inside a vessel's head for being the limiting factor on intellect  that seems wrong.  How much physical ability does it take to wield a pistol, or hold a shield?  If vessels are limited by what they achieved while living, what does that say about crafted vessels?  It's also funny that you should mention religious magic; if any school of magic such as the Templars' or the Confessors' is tied to a religion, would it not wax and wane on the individual's Faith and adherence to that religion.  How could all deities with disparate views of The Hunger have equal influence over a narrow religion. 

•Though it IS possible to role-play from the perspective of the Crow, that doesn't make it appealing; I preferred the role of combatant stuck in a perpetual war (very Edge of Tomorrow) and  I wasn't thrilled when characters went from archetype-turned-immortal demi-god, to an account login screen masked as an androgynous, anthropomorphic, undead lich of a crow.  There is a difference between making a singular choice in a moment of despair thus entering into eternal service to a god, and re-affirming that choice after every death.

 

Shadowfang - This will be true of many people I'm sure. I personally find it appealing, but this is the one case where I don't think any points I make will change your mind because this is your opinion. All I can say is I disagree.

 

Thank You and Piapiac for the taking the time to address my concerns.


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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The last dev post was on page 30.  It would be nice if they could respond to the questions in this thread since then as we're now almost at 60 pages of arguments and speculation.

While I'd like to think my elite boss level questions drove them into hiding they are probably just like making a game or something PSH! But yes some more feedback would be nice. Maybe they are discussing some of our problems and solvng them?


I role play a wordsmith.

 

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Yes. Unfortunately the game of rampant speculation usually doesn't end with an info drop.

In my experience a lack of info fuels concern and assumption among the masses. Imagine how meh Area 51 would have been if they just said "uh yeah it's a plane testing air base"


I role play a wordsmith.

 

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