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The Big Reveal: Crows and vessels - Official discussion thread

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Imagine being a fly on the wall! "Uh so we are having major issues but we think we have a work-a-round...by removing avatars" followed by stone cold stunners until the point of exhaustion and a sigh the "ok I think we can work with this" Stone Cold J Toddstin!

Edited by tierless

I role play a wordsmith.

 

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To appease Scree:

 

Remember this is totally opinion, and no I don't think my opinion is in the majority, nor do I think the reveal will have a negative impact on the game's success. 

 

Game Design Reasons:

  • Vessels are the only item that gives me concern about the power curve because they are not just one more item; because they influence skill caps, disciplines, promotions, as well as stats, in addition to offering the flexibility to change archetype mid-campaign.
  • Because they are the single most valuable player-held item, and also represent your avatar; players will spend an inordinate amount of time fretting-over: finding, maintaining, upgrading, swapping, and banking vessels.  That focus, as already expressed on the forums by fans of the reveal, creates a Pokémon-like meta that detracts from other areas of the game.
  • It's contradictory to say that vessels will be just one more class of item, yet somehow they will single-handedly prop up the crafting economy.  Would adding jewelry, or cloaks, or sheaths add substantially to the economy?
  • Having to go to what amounts to a character select or character creation after each death sounds disruptive to gameplay and immersion breaking.
  • Having vessel decay represented only as a stat on a item will fail to sell the concept.  If they are committed to dark imagery I think they should go all-in with rotting corpses, dismemberments, and crafted vessels that look like stitched together abominations.
  • I have yet to hear an explanation for how the Import Embargo works.  How is it different from your character's inventory: when, where, and how is it accessed and are the items in it subject to the same durability and loot rules as items in your inventory.
  • We were told that one of the added benefits of the Dying Worlds besides being a hard reset, would be the ability to test new rule sets through Attributes and Modules, and a large chunk of the big reveal could have been tested first as a rule-set.  Why use iterative development for combat but not a system like this? 
  • There are other ways to add account level progression without doing away with alts or creating the Crow narrative.  Alts could have been unified together through a guild, deity, faction, or family system and shared some amount of skill progression in a skill tree that still required tough and permanent decisions at the archetype/character level, without making all characters on one account share the exact same half of their progression.
  • Too many temporal and transitory systems that divide the hardcore and the casual and further differentiate between play-styles may not be good for long-term retention. 

 

You didn't exactly violate the 2 sentence rule, so these pass for now. I excluded lore issues, because no matter how much the developers intersperse lore into this title, its really not targeting the roleplayer market. Anyone really convinced they are? At best lore is good filler to bide time till they release new game play system details. I don't think any systems are in place specifically for roleplayers, though I suppose some might make claims the EKs are in that realm.

 

The only point I haven't seen raised before that I take issue with (beyond my already stated opinion on the rest of them) was 

 

 

 

  • Having to go to what amounts to a character select or character creation after each death sounds disruptive to gameplay and immersion breaking.

 

I think the way they described death is far more immersive then you are giving it credit. They acknowledged designing filters and the Crow model specifically for a mode that was immersive by nature. I think most MMOs are pretty ignorant of why players "respawn" after death in the first place. This system at least explains conceptually why a player comes back after death. I think its pretty immersive. I'd think they could push all of the character creation screens to an EK system to prevent in-campaign from needing to do it after each death. Even have preset-looks ready for hot-selecting. Lots of ways to address this that are just too far out and too ux-oriented to worry about at this time.

 

Regardless I appreciate the effort to synthesize your argument down to these points. Let me give you the courtesy of a similar bullet point system of my highlights in favor of it. In no particular order;

  • Eliminates the need for overlapping training that would exist with characters of similar archetypes (training stealth multiple times for Ranger/Assassin/etc.
  • Rings true of "Bring the player" as opposed to "bring a specific archetype or you are useless" found in traditional MMOs, without homogenizing every archetype to be the same.
  • Creates a new highly in-demand trade skill, injecting further support and alternatives for the crafting-focused player.
  • Rewards players who are highly specialized versus those who try to be a jack-of-all-trades when training skills (result: highly focused crafters & highly focused combat players will win out over those who mess around).
  • A Single "Crow" Name to represent a player will mean your reputation means something. Screw up too many times and people might not play with you (i.e: you can't simply roll an alt with a different name when you screw up... without a whole new account of course).
  • Guild and Battle compositions that can radically adjust on the fly, no two fights will likely ever be the same. You might fight a guild of stealthers in the first round and end up fighting a balanced guild of various archetypes in the next (without needing to log into alts!)
  • A statement from the developers that this will not impact the shallow power curve plan originally stated.

Those are my reasons for liking this system. So far I feel the positives do outweigh the negatives.

 

I do concede the general consensus among those who dislike this system, that a players visual identity and name are inherently important to some players. I think the developers will be able to find a happy medium here that minimizes this, beyond the already stated support of allowing a player to keep his vessel indefinitely (campaign-band-dependent of course).

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Think I may have come up with a solution a small one.

 

Let's say your crow little ghost thing has an "Original body".

 

This "Original Body."

Let say is a Confessor.

If someone where to destroy the body this body will have a cool down for when it reform.

(be it 15 mins, 30 mins , 1 hour. ect.)

 

Now the benefits of having a true body is within that certain skill tree they will train faster then other classes since that was their main class so to speak. 

The rest of the classes can be trained lower then the original class or even slower then some classes (for a more RPG's feel.

I'm thinking the main body can attain the highest level of body.

Now how me out for the reason.

With the lock down dime on the reform of the body in place don't think of rejoining the fight so easy.

If the body dies also may drop a level of variety or start back to it's original setting (before new parts where put in.) Whatever the devs feel like.

 

Then you think what about new archetypes that come out?

Shug that's just the luck of the draw?

Idk I'm not magic. I'm not the all father.

 

In this way your still a crow ghost thing.

But this allows for choice of character to matter cuz you have one shot I think.

If you wish to trade your original base body for another type I think a prenatally should be involved maybe taking a major hit in all your skill points you earned or some other means to  prevent original switching so easy.

 

What do you guys think?

+1 this sounds like D&D favored class


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"I don't know what I don't know" -Me

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I was talking about the reveal we're currently discussing.

 

Oh, sorry, sounded like you were saying ACE dropped some more information


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You Can't Be A Genius, If You Aren't The Slightest Bit Insane.

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Oh, sorry, sounded like you were saying ACE dropped some more information

 

Yea I'm not always very clear when I express myself. It's even worse in real life.  :P

 

I was responding to those messages :

 

Yes. Unfortunately the game of rampant speculation usually doesn't end with an info drop.

 

In my experience a lack of info fuels concern and assumption among the masses. Imagine how meh Area 51 would have been if they just said "uh yeah it's a plane testing air base"

 

The devs have posted a huge FAQ about the new design, published a video, participated in a live podcast to answer questions about it, posted messages on the forum... That's not what I call a lack of information.

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Here's a very simple way it COULD be p2w.... if people can use vip tokens to trade for equipment (including vessels) and the best gear in the game is significantly more powerful than average gear...

 

That would be a case of real life money buying a significant amount of in game power...

someone said, "import rules" and you replied, " trade in an EK and also in a CW." Did scamming a player ever cross your mind? Is scamming allowed? If ACE allows scamming in this sandbox, similar to eve, then won't that discourage your p2w transactions? Just offering up these thoughts as I read through the thread.

 

Also a few questions:

 

1. Does a crow always look like a crow? IE i pick the spider god and my "crow" could be a spider?

 

2. In my character form (crow) I can't see other players, because then I could scout without danger, but then can other players in their avatar see me in character form? Can crows see other crows?

 

3. If my character is invisible to others and vice versa how is that a character that I can become attached to?

 

I do like the reveal but these were some thoughts that I had while reading through the thread.


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"I don't know what I don't know" -Me

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3. If my character is invisible to others and vice versa how is that a character that I can become attached to?

 

I do like the reveal but these were some thoughts that I had while reading through the thread.

 

I've been trying to kick this concern around a bit.  I think that the crow will function like ghost form and I did not worry about attachment to my ghost form in any game. I fully understand and feel the concern for connecting with my character.  Although in The Infected and God's Reach there may not be loot-able vessels, I anticipate deterioration to the point of breaking.  Therefore, it is our responsibility to build and maintain a stockpile of vessels into which we can jump.  At that point, I am willing to admit that jumping into a new vessel might feel different than re-spawning into our same body, but functions essentially the same; I expect saved load-outs for appearance. If you have to downgrade because your good vessel broke, then I guess that's too bad and can feel like a death penalty, rather than not being able to connect.

 

I give ACE credit for making the re-spawn mechanic non-trivial; in so many games its just a single button of no (or very temporary) consequence, and you are back at full power.  Here, you need to be prepared, it will cost materials, time, and energy, and I think I will still be able to connect all the same with my "character."

 

I am certain I'll be able to creatively story and think about being in vessels that are "beneath" my abilities and that are "beyond" my abilities.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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why do people keep calling Crowfall Arena ? The campaign worlds are gonna be really big and last months ?

I think because without the crow it could have been a lobby game? just my take and ive never heard of overwatch


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"I don't know what I don't know" -Me

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@VN

 

I keep lurking around  this thread and seeing how you're scared of some random "ebays"

 

Tell you what you need to do, Scam them and take their VIP tokens and give them nothing. They will stop trying to trade them.

 

** as long as its not against the rules **


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"I don't know what I don't know" -Me

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There's a lot of neat points in the thread, but I'd like to indicate my own:

We've known since the Kickstarter launch that the player was an immortal being that has traveled dozens or hundreds of dying worlds in service of a deity.  We've also known that they had been granted a personal realm of their own, as well, to rule over.  The idea that this power is vested into you makes more sense when instead of being just "some person", you're something far beyond "a person" at all.

Being a ghostly crow that leaps between bodies is new information, but it supports the information we've already known quite a bit. 

Being a Crow was always being something far more terrifying than "a person who uses swords good".

Yes, this changes people's roleplaying opportunities; instead of being a dwarven forgemaster that is an immortal superbeing, they are now an immortal superbeing that may be a dwarven forgemaster one day and a faerie-like druid the next. Maybe you do this, maybe you don't. Maybe roleplaying means that you, you know, limit what your character does?

Of course, mechanically, you only have the "one" character, so you're barred from having a good guy alt and a badguy alt and all of that.  I'm sure the creative minded can work around this, roleplaying's not exactly the chief concern of the game.

Likewise, one character means you can't have a crafting alt and a wizard alt and a sword alt.  That's good, it's great, it's amazing.  This means that people who craft, wizard, and sword well are all really good to have around.  This means you take part in the economy instead of logging in to churn out some helmets and then log back into your helmet wearing guy.  This means that you can make helmets real good and be real good friends with people who wear helmets.  I also believe that the shallow skill curve will mean that, with some patience, everyone will be able to craft basic doodads, cast basic spells, and swing basic swords, while still being exceptional at one or two things.  All on the same "character". 

Having to start an alt from nothing every time you want to try something new is tedious and not fun.  I don't have unlimited time for games, and I'd rather a system where I can have my generalist Crow be a swordgirl for a night, and then a helmet maker on the weekend.  I don't want to have to decide if I wanna play my high level person or my new person.  I don't wanna have to rush to get a new character on par with my friends.  Vessel system seems like it works for me.

Honestly, most of the complaints I've seen stem from vessels being unlike every other fantasy MMO of "open game, choose character".  There's the missing comfort of familiarity, seeing your personally assembled team there.  A Crow is not the most friendly thing to stare down before you play.  I get it.  I just get this new stuff, too.  There's not going to be a perfect fix, Crowfall will not be a perfect game, but I am willing to roll with the vessel system.

Edited by capntastic

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Id like to bring up the fact that we haven't really touched on what this means for players that don't want to solely focus on combat.

 

I plan on being a CW crafter wherever my guild needs me (most likely the no import full loot areas) and while I am not apposed to spending time working on the active portions of combat for the archetype i pick at character creation, I really haven't been able to come up with any good reason why this change will have a negative affect on my play style.

 

I'm reaching out to all you people that are smarter than I to toss things around and bounce them off of me so I have something to chew on.

 

-Thanks


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"I don't know what I don't know" -Me

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Yea I'm not always very clear when I express myself. It's even worse in real life.  :P

 

I was responding to those messages :

 

 

 

The devs have posted a huge FAQ about the new design, published a video, participated in a live podcast to answer questions about it, posted messages on the forum... That's not what I call a lack of information.

Sorry, I worded my earlier comment poorly it should have read, "Yes. Unfortunately the game of rampant speculation usually doesn't end when we get an info drop."

Implying that yes they give us a big info drop, but no that doesn't end the speculation because some of us feel things will never be clear enough until we get to play them.


Luke I am your Uncle... Bob.  What, my sister Padmè never mentioned me?

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Sorry if its been discussed, maybe bump for dev response  

 

Did the devs explain what is the EK (and its function) now after the big reveal? Bunch of spirits flying around doing crafting and trading or do the crows still need vessels?

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Sorry if its been discussed, maybe bump for dev response  

 

Did the devs explain what is the EK (and its function) now after the big reveal? Bunch of spirits flying around doing crafting and trading or do the crows still need vessels?

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Guild Leader/ High Elder

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Sorry if its been discussed, maybe bump for dev response  

 

Did the devs explain what is the EK (and its function) now after the big reveal? Bunch of spirits flying around doing crafting and trading or do the crows still need vessels?

You will need to use a vessel in your EK. It's not planned to be spending lots of time in your crow form at this time.

 

-source is C&C blixtev interview


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"I don't know what I don't know" -Me

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Id like to bring up the fact that we haven't really touched on what this means for players that don't want to solely focus on combat.

 

I plan on being a CW crafter wherever my guild needs me (most likely the no import full loot areas) and while I am not apposed to spending time working on the active portions of combat for the archetype i pick at character creation, I really haven't been able to come up with any good reason why this change will have a negative affect on my play style.

 

I'm reaching out to all you people that are smarter than I to toss things around and bounce them off of me so I have something to chew on.

 

-Thanks

 

I don't know about being "smarter than you", but I tend to agree with your sentiment.

 

If you plan on being a CW crafter, specifically one who can craft a little (or a lot) of everything, then this system is actually pretty sweet because it means that you can have multiple vessels with different Disciplines so that you can switch between them, not forcing you to specialize in a single form of crafting. I'm still curious how that function is going to work, however, so this little detail might not be as helpful as I think it will be. I wish to be a CW crafter as well, and now that I won't have 3 primary characters but 1, I think I'm going to start off learning how to craft Vessels for my guild. I believe they said Discipline Runes are craft-able, so maybe I'll work on those either simultaneously or immediately after. Then I will work on figurines for holding beasts and thralls. I will master those particular skills first and then branch out to other forms of crafting. Crafting just got interesting in how important it will be, and it already sounded like it would be incredibly relevant.

 

Actually, I just thought of something. What if those three crafting skills are not available immediately? What if you have to do some general armor/weapon crafting first before unlocking them as advanced skills? All I gotta say is if you need a Discipline Rune to craft Discipline Runes... Well played, ArtCraft. Well played.


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


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@VN

 

I keep lurking around  this thread and seeing how you're scared of some random "ebays"

 

Tell you what you need to do, Scam them and take their VIP tokens and give them nothing. They will stop trying to trade them.

 

** as long as its not against the rules **

Scammers are irrelevant, they usually don't last long... people WILL setup ways to game the system... people DO build up reputations and trading in video games DOES happen across servers/realms/etc... 

 

Sure if some guy wants to trade with random_kid_05 he might get scammed... but if he trades with uber_popular_twitch_streamer, that's just not going to happen. 

 

I'm not "scared" of some random ebays... I just have a deeper understanding of how certain vulnerabilities in design can cascade out... a lot of the concerns I raise have nothing to do with me directly, but guess what?  If the game falls apart then it directly impacts me because playing a dead game is boring. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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...you can have multiple vessels with different Disciplines so that you can switch between them, not forcing you to specialize in a single form of crafting...

 

Has there been anything to indicate that crafting specialties will be vessel dependent, either based on archetype or discipline?  I can definitely see there being crafting disciplines, but I would be a little surprised if a given vessel could only make one type of item.

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