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The Big Reveal: Crows and vessels - Official discussion thread

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Why would an immortal spirit want to participate in an endless war?  

 

Why would an immortal spirit want or need anything from a dying world?

 

Why would an immortal spirit need a God?

 

Why would an immortal spirit need or want anything?

 

Why would an immortal spirit EVER fear death?  Doesn't that make PVP and the game irrelevant?

You are someone I'd like to get a beer with.


Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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60 pages on big reveal.

I know a lot of us have some concerns on how this going work.

-----------------------------

@jtoddcoleman

 

Q1) Since there's a lot of KS backers have an additional character slots can we "send it as a gift to an alt account that have 1 dedicated slot which can be maximum of 3" or would we be allowed to purchase an additional dedicated slot in an alt account up to 3 maximum?

 

Q2) Do we have to serve the same god after losing our vessels or Do we have to serve different god to whatever new vessel we find during campaign?

 

Q3) Reserving character name will it be at account level or will it be to each vessel we create?

 

Q4) Can we purchase an additional "Skill tree to train an additional General Skills which maximum 2?"

 

Q5) Can we purchase an additional "Skill tree to train an additional Archetype maximum to 4,5,6?"

 

Q6) Related to Q3 (( If we have to name our vessel that we create, does that mean we lose that vessel name which bind to that vessel? )) || If we're not going lose our names just the vessel does that mean our spirit going have our names while we find new vessel to posses ?

 

If some of these questions been answered sorry for my laziness to skips all pages :D.

 

I'm not a dev, but I'll try my best.

 

Q1) They've converted character slots to training slots.  Basically every account gets to train one general skill, and one archetype skill.  If you have VIP, you can train an additional two archetype skills (for a total of three archetype skills) but the skills must be in different archetypes so VIP doesn't let you leapfrog non-VIP players.

 

Q2) Your crow (spirit) is tied to the god, not the disposable bodies you'll be inhabiting.

 

Q3) They stated that name reservation will be for accounts (the name of your crow), and will be unique.  Vessels will be non-unique, if you choose to give them a name at all.

 

Q4) No, and if they did this I would want my pledge back as that is pure pay to win.  Reason?  General skills are usable by any and all vessels you inhabit, making General skills incredibly important.

 

Q5) No, and I hope not.  While not as p2w as an additional General skill training line would be, it would really toe the line if you could train in 6 archetypes at once.

 

 

BTW, read the reveal and the FAQ.   :P   Almost no new information is in this thread as the devs stopped answering questions by page 30, and most of the answers were to questions that were already answered in the reveal and the FAQ.

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Good questions, I'll play. 

 

Why would an immortal spirit want to participate in an endless war? To keep the immortal power they have been granted from their god so they can go to their "heaven" (EK) and party.

 

Why would an immortal spirit want or need anything from a dying world? Good question, why do the Gods? Maybe the chaos and energy and death of war energizes them? 

 

Why would an immortal spirit need a God? I thought they only become immortal from a God so I suppose that is why.

 

Why would an immortal spirit need or want anything? This is a good question. If their EK is their "heaven" place maybe they want things that remind them of what life was like? Maybe they can get pleasure out of those things still?

 

Why would an immortal spirit EVER fear death?  Doesn't that make PVP and the game irrelevant? Another good one, maybe it makes their god angry and then they drain their spirit or something?

 

I tried my best to give decent answers but yes, even basing my answers on the CF universe I have to think being a ghosty crow makes much of the game less meaningful and purposeful. It takes me back to playing FPSs where I PVPed to PVP. I can get that in those games. MMOs represent something greater, or at least the old ones did. A world to live and fight and die in, more than a game, a micro universe to escape to.

Edited by tierless

I role play a wordsmith.

 

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Why would an immortal spirit EVER fear death?  Doesn't that make PVP and the game irrelevant? Another good one, maybe it makes their god angry and then they drain their spirit or something?

 

Great answers overall! Concerning this one, I think the Crows do not fear that their vessels die. But as the goal of the Crows is to scavenge the world and collect the soul of the damned (and ultimately export them after winning campaign), there's more chance to see a player succeed if he's not constantly dying.

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I kinda of like the concept of the EK being our "heaven" place. We scavenge the world to get souls to feed our gods powers to stay immortal, but we are granted the EK to make our own heaven to try to relive what we had in life. Something poetically sad about it. 

Edited by tierless

I role play a wordsmith.

 

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I want to play a game on a full server from the beginning to almost the end, where players are fighting until it's really over.

 

Make campaign hopping too easy, and people will quit the moment they realize they're getting behind.

 

Agree with this for sure, needs to be some big penalty for campaign hopping. Also I hope ACE considers this in the scoring/win conditions. So for example, if points are given for holding territory over time, holdings in winter get more points than holdings in summer (comeback mechanic). I would also like different CW strategies to be viable - guild 1 takes territory at the start and upgrades vs. guild 2 stockpiles vessels and gear then attacks guild 1's territory in winter etc.


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I kinda of like the concept of the EK being our "heaven" place. We scavenge the world to get souls to feed our gods powers to stay immortal, but we are granted the EK to make our own heaven to try to relive what we had in life. Something poetically sad about it. 

Why would heaven need to be supplied with anything?   

 

I find the concept of an immortal spirit serving a "more" immortal (Immortaler?) God to be weak sauce.  If this is the way ACE wants to go with Crowfall, they need to hire a writer to create a COMPELLING reason for an immortal spirit to fight this endless war. 

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Why would heaven need to be supplied with anything?   

 

I find the concept of an immortal spirit serving a "more" immortal (Immortaler?) God to be weak sauce.  If this is the way ACE wants to go with Crowfall, they need to hire a writer to create a COMPELLING reason for an immortal spirit to fight this endless war. 

 

Because maybe in the CF version of heaven its something we build ourselves. (Note, make mine a giant nest)

 

Personally I don't love the idea of being a slave to any god or gods in life or death, many of my characters reject such notions in other games. Not sure how I will spin it here.

 

2 characters come to mind, immortal warriors, Nosferatu Zodd  from Berserk and Gilad from Eternal Warrior. Both do it for entirely different reasons but both might serve as a place of inspiration for the why and how. 

Edited by tierless

I role play a wordsmith.

 

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Why would heaven need to be supplied with anything?   

 

I find the concept of an immortal spirit serving a "more" immortal (Immortaler?) God to be weak sauce.  If this is the way ACE wants to go with Crowfall, they need to hire a writer to create a COMPELLING reason for an immortal spirit to fight this endless war. 

You only need to do some research on any polytheistic religion/lore/mythology to understand the concept and why it is used very often in RPGs.

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You only need to do some research on any polytheistic religion/lore/mythology to understand the concept and why it is used very often in RPGs.

 

Even monotheistic religions tend to have subservient immortals in them. Angels and demons come to mind.


IhhQKY6.gif

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That's why I always play a dwarf!

Hey, we centaurs are known for their love of strong drink.  In all fairness, in virtually every other MMO that has more standard LOTR inspired races, I play a dwarf... now, a dwarf centaur... that would be ideal. 


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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Even monotheistic religions tend to have subservient immortals in them. Angels and demons come to mind.

One thing helping to be less critical of the Crows and Vessels system is Tolkien's Gandalf--a Maiar who actually died and took on a changed form.  "Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done."   


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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This is pretty much Valhalla.

 

So in other words, those spirits slain by combat are chosen by the gods to fight for them, are taken to the EKs where they bide their time and are then sent to various worlds to aid them in Ragnarok, since they are all ending in a span of four seasons.

 

Yup, definitely Valhalla. Good call :)

 

*Watches a Guinecean get fired out of a canon in full plate armor and bash a hole through a castle wall* WITNESS!


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


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I'm really glad to see a better response to The Big Reveal here. Youtube really is a toxic place.
 

Here's my opinion on The Big Reveal, it was more in response to youtube comments, but like I said glad to see people here are more accepting of innovative change.

 

:) This is good stuff right here!
So I feel bad for the backers that are having a negative response to this change, but I really don't understand the response. 
The only thing that really changes with this alteration is this: before if I wanted to have multiple "characters" each account had I think it was 3 different character saves available. Now with this change, if you want to have another "character" you kind of have to start another account. Which I can see how this might annoy some people.
But the reality of the situation is whether you have 3 characters on one account or 1 character per account you would have to split up your time spent into leveling up each character, so nothing really changes except this way you really have to think strategically about how you level up your crow.
For example before this change I thought I would have one character be combat focused and one character crafting focused. Now with the change (I doubt I'll be someone that makes multiple accounts, maybe I'll change my mind over time) I really have to think about how I want to level up my crow because I still want a Crow thats good at combat but I will also want one that can craft well. So I can still try and do this or I can just say screw being good at crafting I want to focus on all combat or vice-versa.
 
TL;DR It doesn't really matter because either way 3 characters per account or 1 character per account you still have to split up your time leveling up each character and should be leveling up strategically to get the most out of the character you are trying to create, which really should be the basis of any good MMORPG imo.
 
Also for the people complaining that adding vessels ruins the game; I really don't think you are understanding how they work (or just aren't watching the whole video/reading the associated FAQ)
The vessels seem to be more stat/skill based rather than appearance, you can still customize your avatar to look like whatever you want, they said in the video that instead of character creation just being at the beginning of the game you will be able to customize your character appearance anytime (prob not in combat) you want.

So do other people feel the same way, was everyone else getting the same idea/s from the announcement?

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So I feel bad for the backers that are having a negative response to this change, but I really don't understand the response. 

The only thing that really changes with this alteration is this: before if I wanted to have multiple "characters" each account had I think it was 3 different character saves available. Now with this change, if you want to have another "character" you kind of have to start another account. Which I can see how this might annoy some people.
But the reality of the situation is whether you have 3 characters on one account or 1 character per account you would have to split up your time spent into leveling up each character, so nothing really changes except this way you really have to think strategically about how you level up your crow.
For example before this change I thought I would have one character be combat focused and one character crafting focused. Now with the change (I doubt I'll be someone that makes multiple accounts, maybe I'll change my mind over time) I really have to think about how I want to level up my crow because I still want a Crow thats good at combat but I will also want one that can craft well. So I can still try and do this or I can just say screw being good at crafting I want to focus on all combat or vice-versa.
 
TL;DR It doesn't really matter because either way 3 characters per account or 1 character per account you still have to split up your time leveling up each character and should be leveling up strategically to get the most out of the character you are trying to create, which really should be the basis of any good MMORPG imo.
 
Also for the people complaining that adding vessels ruins the game; I really don't think you are understanding how they work (or just aren't watching the whole video/reading the associated FAQ)
The vessels seem to be more stat/skill based rather than appearance, you can still customize your avatar to look like whatever you want, they said in the video that instead of character creation just being at the beginning of the game you will be able to customize your character appearance anytime (prob not in combat) you want.

 

So do other people feel the same way, was everyone else getting the same idea/s from the announcement?

 

 

Until I know more its hard to say. Some very good questions came up in this thread and on the general forum, until I see some of those filled in I can't form an educated opinion on if I think it will help or hurt CF. Until I've played I cant know, I understand that, but its nice to fill in the darkness with some light so we can better see the world in front of us.


I role play a wordsmith.

 

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Don't get me wrong, think it's a very interesting and innovative idea (and not having to spend so much time on alt-itis is definitely a plus), but as devil's advocate, here are some things I'm not liking:

 

Vessel quality: Not a fan. Not. A. Fan. This hurts the PvP aspect of the game, essentially telling people that you are better than others simply by virtue of their "gear." How is that healthy / promote PvP? With "vessel quality," you've essentially taken a skill based game and turned it gear based before we even start. Sure it's another carrot for players to chase, but if vessel quality is affecting gameplay at the getgo by telling players "you are better than everyone jsut because," that's bad. It essentially gives players a right to terrorize new players without "maxed out" avatars, causing people to avoid PvP even more than they already did. If the differences are small (for example, in the form of randomly generated base stat totals) then that's not too bad, with crafters being able to craft vessels with certain base stat distributions. But if vessel quality actually means a vessel is already inherently a class apart, then that is really bad news. 

 

Visual Appearance: How are they going to be implemented? Is that cooked into the original "crafting phase"? Frankly, the idea of my soul always becoming a bird isn't real appealing, can we get some skins for our soul forms, like something more anthropomorphic? I know this isn't super important, but it does help with immersion and roleplay...speaking of which...

 

Roleplay is Dead: Pretty much when vessels became a thing, the relevance of archetype lore and cultural lore died. Not saying it's impossible, but now, what's the point? You have all this great lore on Fae culture and Centaur history, but in the end, the focus has shifted from the archetypes to the crows. Wow the centaurs have such great history, I'm a crow...The cultural fixation on maternal filicide in Fae culture is quite unique, I'm a crow...Frostweavers thematic connection with dance is very not about how I am a crow. Who cares if my centaur toon was a great general, his vessel is rotting somewhere. My frostweaver was once a worshipper of Maeve, till I lost the vessel in my third campaign, now I'm on the 5th toon. The whole body swapping really detracts from a players connection with a toon, or personal investment. I keep trying to think of ways that I can be made to care about my current Druid, but the knowledge that I'm going to dump him for another shinier archetype vessel makes it less meaningful, causing me to be much more invested in the crow, who's lore is shallow. There is also nothing connecting the crow to any character traits, again damaging immersion.

 

  • (Maybe if the soul-form more resembled the character they once were (like their form in the EK's) or the soul-form had more of a connection to the archetypes, the uncanny-valley might be easier to cross...as it is, I keep trying to form a personal attachment to some immortal winged pest and my cognitive dissonance keeps getting in the way. I know that roleplaying and lore isn't something everyone cares about, and some people manage to RP in EVE (somehow...), but I'm not one of those. I play games as a form of escapism and exploration of different personality traits, to write my own stories of my own characters...the constant reminder the crow-form provides of how I'm already dead reinforces the nihilistic part of me that questions why I'm playing a game that forcibly detaches me from my characters. If there was a way to make the crow-form more relatable, that would go a long way to removing that mental barrier (after all, it is my psyche, I would like to think I can make it appear and reflect my personality as I please))

 

Like I said, I think that mechanically, it's a very interesting system and is a lot better than most other cut-and-dry respawn mechanics...just some issues to work out in terms of balancing and immersion, which will go a long way to ensuring the initial longevity of the game. Giving us something attach ourselves to the world and lore. In literature, the first thing the audience attaches to are the characters. Uninteresting characters, and the readers stop reading. Give the audience great characters to connect to and care about their development, and they're much more likely to buy the whole series. So ACE has given us interesting and colorful archetypes/vessels...time for them to make our avatars more interesting than a blue rat-with-wings.

Edited by RKNM

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