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The Big Reveal: Crows and vessels - Official discussion thread

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Don't get me wrong, think it's a very interesting and innovative idea (and not having to spend so much time on alt-itis is definitely a plus), but as devil's advocate, here are some things I'm not liking:

 

Vessel quality: Not a fan. Not. A. Fan. This hurts the PvP aspect of the game, essentially telling people that you are better than others simply by virtue of their "gear." How is that healthy / promote PvP? With "vessel quality," you've essentially taken a skill based game and turned it gear based before we even start. Sure it's another carrot for players to chase, but if vessel quality is affecting gameplay at the getgo by telling players "you are better than everyone jsut because," that's bad. It essentially gives players a right to terrorize new players without "maxed out" avatars, causing people to avoid PvP even more than they already did. If the differences are small (for example, in the form of randomly generated base stat totals) then that's not too bad, with crafters being able to craft vessels with certain base stat distributions. But if vessel quality actually means a vessel is already inherently a class apart, then that is really bad news. 

 

Visual Appearance: How are they going to be implemented? Is that cooked into the original "crafting phase"? Frankly, the idea of my soul always becoming a bird isn't real appealing, can we get some skins for our soul forms, like something more anthropomorphic? I know this isn't super important, but it does help with immersion and roleplay...speaking of which...

 

Roleplay is Dead: Pretty much when vessels became a thing, the relevance of archetype lore and cultural lore died. Not saying it's impossible, but now, what's the point? You have all this great lore on Fae culture and Centaur history, but in the end, the focus has shifted from the archetypes to the crows. Wow the centaurs have such great history, I'm a crow...The cultural fixation on maternal filicide in Fae culture is quite unique, I'm a crow...Frostweavers thematic connection with dance is very not about how I am a crow. Who cares if my centaur toon was a great general, his vessel is rotting somewhere. My frostweaver was once a worshipper of Maeve, till I lost the vessel in my third campaign, now I'm on the 5th toon. The whole body swapping really detracts from a players connection with a toon, or personal investment. I keep trying to think of ways that I can be made to care about my current Druid, but the knowledge that I'm going to dump him for another shinier archetype vessel makes it less meaningful, causing me to be much more invested in the crow, who's lore is shallow. There is also nothing connecting the crow to any character traits, again damaging immersion.

They already said the power curve is gonna be low, so I've pretty much assumed the same rule applies to vessel power-curves. Still though:

 

"They do! Since they are an item they follow item rules as well, meaning quality levels. Higher quality level vessels will have higher attributes and skill caps."

 

In this case, I simply remind you that initially your characters had Advantage/Disadvantages that determined your ability to grow and prosper. Now, you can still make some mistakes, but think of it in the terms of a min/max: Higher quality vessels are (most likely) the equivalent of players who did their character-creation RIGHT, without making mistakes. Only in this case you don't have to spend a crap-ton of time maxing out your toon and then discover "S***, I f***ed up, gotta reroll and start ALL OVER to get it right!" That would drive people mad, and that's coming from me, an experimental alt-a-holic. Now, you screw up on the vessel, use it for now, and work your butt off to get it right. BUT REMEMBER: Eventually that vessel will crumble, which means you have to get it right repeatedly, and in order to get the mats for it, you'll probably be spending a ton of time in the dregs, which isn't even a guarantee for victory because they have (from what I understand) no-import, which means you are bound by the resources of the world and probably can't even come in with an avatar (equipped vessel).

 

As far as role-play goes, I would comment except that it would be redundant, as I have already posted my opinion on the matter:

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/10402-the-big-reveal-crows-and-vessels-official-discussion-thread/page-53#entry250472

 

Oh, and for visual appearance: I wouldn't mind being able to somewhat customize our crow-forms! That'd be sweet, actually :D I'd totally be a white crow with a black beak and glowing red eyes. Just kinda my thing ^_^


Can we have a Bard? If not as an Archetype or Promotion, then maybe a Discipline?


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Vessel quality: Not a fan. Not. A. Fan. This hurts the PvP aspect of the game, essentially telling people that you are better than others simply by virtue of their "gear." How is that healthy / promote PvP? With "vessel quality," you've essentially taken a skill based game and turned it gear based before we even start. Sure it's another carrot for players to chase, but if vessel quality is affecting gameplay at the getgo by telling players "you are better than everyone jsut because," that's bad. It essentially gives players a right to terrorize new players without "maxed out" avatars, causing people to avoid PvP even more than they already did. If the differences are small (for example, in the form of randomly generated base stat totals) then that's not too bad, with crafters being able to craft vessels with certain base stat distributions. But if vessel quality actually means a vessel is already inherently a class apart, then that is really bad news. 

I'm not sure you are understanding how vessel quality works. If we both have our skills trained to 50, I'm wearing a common vessel and you are wearing an legendary vessel, you aren't any stronger than I am. The quality of the vessel only determines the maximum possible for your skills. It doesn't change the level your skills are at. If anything, the vessel system works to level the playing field because someone who has trained to 150 in a skill will only benefit from the first 100 skill points if he is using a common vessel. 

 

Also, because high quality vessels may be limited (and also because you can lose them), many people might choose to only level their skills to 100. Why bother taking the time to raise them above 100 when you may not have a vessel capable of using those points? That also will level the playing field.

 

 

 

Roleplay is Dead: Pretty much when vessels became a thing, the relevance of archetype lore and cultural lore died. Not saying it's impossible, but now, what's the point? You have all this great lore on Fae culture and Centaur history, but in the end, the focus has shifted from the archetypes to the crows. Wow the centaurs have such great history, I'm a crow...The cultural fixation on maternal filicide in Fae culture is quite unique, I'm a crow...Frostweavers thematic connection with dance is very not about how I am a crow.

You weren't always a crow. Just because you might wear different faces now (you don't have to), that doesn't mean you didn't start your life as a Legionnaire or Fae or whatever. You can still roleplay your character however you want. The only limit is your imagination.

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You weren't always a crow. Just because you might wear different faces now (you don't have to), that doesn't mean you didn't start your life as a Legionnaire or Fae or whatever. You can still roleplay your character however you want. The only limit is your imagination.

 

I agree.  I have some more ideas, from the perspective of a Forgemaster.  Maybe my original soul was so stubborn, I will only play Forgemaster.  Or maybe I felt I was a chameleon and will play anything. Or maybe I felt like I was a Legionnaire trapped in a Forgemaster body, so I'll only play FM and Legionnaire.  Or maybe I hate elves, so I'll play anything but elves.  Or maybe I was a Forgemaster, but really only care about the Order gods, so I'll play any archetype that is "aligned" with Order.  Roleplay away, friends.

 

One way to make things interesting from a design perspective is to have Archetype specific materials for Necromancy.  I expect this to be the case, but it will start committing people to particular resources (as an all Forgemaster guild, I suspect we'll have to pin down certain resources). This type of mechanic creates stories and intriguing gameplay and trading opportunities.

 

In SB, people locked down disciplines.  In Crowfall, maybe people will lock down archetypes.  You want to play a confessor?  You are going to have to pay up.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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Roleplay is Dead: Pretty much when vessels became a thing, the relevance of archetype lore and cultural lore died. Not saying it's impossible, but now, what's the point? 

 

I completely disagree.  RP is not a game-play mechanic, it's a creative enterprise done by players who can continue to do it regardless of the game.  Of course the roles themselves may differ, the stories are game specific, but the concept that RP can 'die' because of game mechanics...I disagree with the premise.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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I completely disagree.  RP is not a game-play mechanic, it's a creative enterprise done by players who can continue to do it regardless of the game.  Of course the roles themselves may differ, the stories are game specific, but the concept that RP can 'die' because of game mechanics...I disagree with the premise.

 

Yes, but (and that is a big but), with that reasoning you could role play anything, really.  How bout chess RP, for instance?


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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Yes, but (and that is a big but), with that reasoning you could role play anything, really.  How bout chess RP, for instance?

If you wanted to, sure. You could imagine that you are the king or queen, sending your pawns off to fight your battles and to, when necessary, die for you. It won't help you win the game, but whatever floats your boat.

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Yes, but (and that is a big but), with that reasoning you could role play anything, really.  How bout chess RP, for instance?

 

You could try but it would be pretty boring.  Hence the RP is game-specific.  I just don't see this change as diminishing RP, only RP of a particular flavor.  A fantasy social game with a big universe and politics seems ripe to me for RP.

 

Edit: I appreciate your reasoning, though.  You've made me consider that of course there are mechanics that support and diminish RP, I guess I just don't think changing the vessels mechanic will break the RP possibility in an MMO-size universe.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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You could try but it would be pretty boring.  Hence the RP is game-specific.  I just don't see this change as diminishing RP, only RP of a particular flavor.  A fantasy social game with a big universe and politics seems ripe to me for RP.

 

Edit: I appreciate your reasoning, though.  You've made me consider that of course there are mechanics that support and diminish RP, I guess I just don't think changing the vessels mechanic will break the RP possibility in an MMO-size universe.

 

I hear what you are saying, and there is definitely a level subjectivity to "RP".  However, the lack of permanence in CF, which initially was an alluring feature to me when I labored under the illusion that it would be kept within certain parameters, will perhaps be its undoing with many MMORPG fans.  What is permanent in CF as we know it currently?  A disembodied skill set (i.e., your crow) and an EK (which the devs have already said won't really matter).  That's it.  Some RPers will love the lack of permanence, but if I was a betting man I would say that many more will not.  That aside, they may attract gamers from other genres, such as MOBA and T/FPS players.  I think they'll get some EVE players too, who may be sick of the same old look.  It will be an easy transition for them.     

 

 

EDIT: sometimes, my spelling... 

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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I hear what you are saying, and there is definitely a level subjectivity to "RP".  However, the lack of permanence in CF, which initially was an alluring feature to me when I labored under the illusion that it would be kept within certain parameters, will perhaps be its undoing with many MMORPG fans.  What is permanent in CF as we know it currently?  A disembodied skill set (i.e., your crow) and an EK (which the devs have already said won't really matter).  That's it.  Some RPers will love the lack of permanence, but if I was a betting man I would say that many more will not.  That aside, they may attract gamers from other genres, such as MOBA and T/FPS players.  I think they'll get some EVE players too, who may be sick of the same old look.  It will be an easy transition for them.  

 

You're probably right; I'll say, though, that I RP - but RP is secondary to finding a game that I like outside of that.  I can bring my RP wherever I want, but I only choose to play games that are fun because of combat & politics (to name a few).  So, I suspect that if the game is good, the RP community will find a way to thrive.  Most RP relies on population.  But, my potential issues with EKs and community splits have nothing to do with RP, they just affect it.

 

Edit: For example, in Shadowbane, my all-dwarf guild had so much fun navigating having a mutual enemy (LoD) with an all-elf guild (Lok'ri).  The game was fun, so we brought a layer of RP to make it even more fun.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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The entire genre came from PnP and MUDs, I think the level of RP and volume of people that like to embrace it (while not going as far as what we think of as typical serious RPers) is much higher than assumed. MMOs are just adultish men playing with action figures in a more socially acceptable way that to play with the plastic kind lol. We traded plastic for pixels but the roots are still here, playing dress up with our hero dolls. More RP in such things than people like to admit.


I role play a wordsmith.

 

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The entire genre came from PnP and MUDs, I think the level of RP and volume of people that like to embrace it (while not going as far as what we think of as typical serious RPers) is much higher than assumed. MMOs are just adultish men playing with action figures in a more socially acceptable way that to play with the plastic kind lol. We traded plastic for pixels but the roots are still here, playing dress up with our hero dolls. More RP in such things than people like to admit.

 

Yes, but...

At some point (starting in UO, for sure), it is my observation that new types of players began taking part in MMORPGs--not just your typical D&D nerds (of which I proudly am one, since 1980).  For better or for worse they have heavily influenced design trends.  Many players are more interested in achievement, statistics and crunch then they are story, RP or immersion to the extreme that they actively campaign against the latter whilst voting for the former with their dollars.  This one undercurrent has been going on for so long now that it really seems like these types of players are in the majority.  

 

Some have argued that convenience gaming has corrupted the MMORPG genre so badly that it may never recover.  We see other game types becoming more popular whilst MMORPGs diminish.  For example, we've all heard this: "WoW is too easy; too accommodating to filthy casuals!"  I would agree there is definitely in issue with convenience, but I think what is perhaps more damaging (though related) has been the way the genre has strayed away from it roots.  What once was a genre that attempted to emphasize exploration, adventure and interaction (including meaningful conflict)--truly escapist (in the best way possible)--has been reduced to a transparent gear/leveling treadmill/arena--a mind-numbing distraction right out of Harrison Bergeron or Fahrenheit 451 (maybe not the very best examples, but you get my point).     

 

Convenience, along with the huge issue of a lack of player driven content (another discussion), has absolutely wounded the MMORPG, but perhaps not mortally.  I suspect the deathblow, if it comes, to arrive in the form of the popularization of games that are equally transparent, soulless, hollow exercises in superior mathematics and/or twitch skills calling themselves MMORPGs.  

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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Yes, but...

At some point (starting in UO, for sure), it is my observation that new types of players began taking part in MMORPGs--not just your typical D&D nerds (of which I proudly am one, since 1980).  For better or for worse they have heavily influenced design trends.  Many players are more interested in achievement, statistics and crunch then they are story, RP or immersion to the extreme that they actively campaign against the latter whilst voting for the former with their dollars.  This one undercurrent has been going on for so long now that it really seems like these types of players are in the majority.  

 

Some have argued that convenience gaming has corrupted the MMORPG genre so badly that it may never recover.  We see other game types becoming more popular whilst MMORPGs diminish.  For example, we've all heard this: "WoW is too easy; to accommodating to filthy casuals!"  I would agree there is definitely in issue with convenience, but I think what is perhaps more damaging (though related) has been the way the genre has strayed away from it roots.  What once was a genre that attempted to emphasize exploration, adventure and interaction (including meaningful conflict)--truly escapist (in the best way possible)--has been reduced to a transparent gear/leveling treadmill/arena--a mind-numbing distraction right out of Harrison Bergeron or Fahrenheit 451 (maybe not the very best examples, but you get my point).     

 

Convenience, along with the huge issue of a lack of player driven content (another discussion), has absolutely wounded the MMORPG, but perhaps not mortally.  I suspect the deathblow, if it comes, to arrive in the form of the popularization of games that are equally transparent, soulless, hollow exercises in superior mathematics and/or twitch skills calling themselves MMORPGs.  

 

I stand by the belief that many players THINK they are more interested in achievement, statistics and crunch but they aren't, if they were they would all play EVE or FPS's. The fact that an avatar in combat interests them shows they are more for the aesthetic and immersion than they realize. Unless you click "random" character, "random" name at the creation screen I have trouble thinking so many players are so devoid of any RP aspects in spite of what they might think they play for. The crunchy stuff keeps them on the hook for X time but its the lure of the avatar and the pretty things they acquire that retains many more players than seem willing to admit it, or that are aware of it. 


I role play a wordsmith.

 

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Is your crow name the same as your account name or will we get to choose another name?

 

If it is the same, is there any mechanism for changing our account names prior to launch?

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I can see - at least at this point, not having yet caught up following an extended absence - how this might be a concern. Perhaps something could be done which added value to those Crows who stick with a single Vessel longterm, or those who use their `own' vessels...

 

This is all true, however...

 

My concern with this is that CF is increasingly beginning to look like a FPS.  Impermanent world, impermanent characters and combat is even likely to become more FPS-like.  A fantasy FPS is not a bad idea (I enjoyed Hexen) but I fear for the RPG part of this MMORPG.  One thing that has been lost to the MMO-scape is character investment.  Now, I am not talking about "I played a hunter since BC!"--that's character attachment.  I am talking about fine tuning your character to be distinct and even unique overtime by playing the game.  I've already whined on these forums how you can simply changed builds, taking on entirely different roles, on the fly in many MMOs now.  The choices you make, the sacrifices, and the benefits mean almost nothing now and everyone is homogenized, made distinct only by the flash of their gear (gear has been so overemphasized in MMOs, but that is another discussion).  And while this may cater to the culture of convenience, it is anathema to the hero's journey (which is where all of this sprang from in the first place). 

 

Now, I deeply respect ACE, and if anyone can pull off this delicate balancing act, they can. However, I just wanted to offer these words of caution as they proceed.    

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If ACE makes it worth it or not, I will certainly make it my point to retain a single vessel as long as I can. I just hope they toss me a pretty title or even a way to track that and flaunt it a bit, as a point of pride of course.


I role play a wordsmith.

 

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I will definitely try to retain my original Vessel if the game even makes that possible, something which is not yet clear. It is certainly possible in some cases, but has not been established it will be so on all case...I have not seen any explanation of how the process works in game, will it be like in GW2 where you go through a story-mode type instance which covers your first entrance into the world? Where in CF`s case, presumably this would involve your first death and the offer made by whichever god you choose to serve? If the first death is therefore `staged`then it could be assured you have access to a relatively pristine corpse, but if it is not staged, it is entirely possible your body could be completely destroyed or otherwise unavailable to use for use as a Vessel...

 

It may be that these questions have been answered but I have just not yet come across them, but I am still unclear on how exactly that will play out.

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