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The Big Reveal: Crows and vessels - Official discussion thread

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I don't think the main issue is branching out into different skill trees.  I think some see a problem with playing multiple vessels of even the same archetype, and even advancing (again) the skills on each body if one is somehow destroyed, taken or lost.  Do I have that right?  Also, If it is the case that players will have to abandon their vessels to get newer, shinier ones, then that potentially causes some serious disturbance in the RPG force.  And before anyone says "well, you don't have to..." just stop.  This is a competitive PvP game and most people wont purposely gimp themselves.  At best, they'll begrudging ditch their vessel to advance and likely feel unhappy about it.   This question/concern is currently very valid:

 

In traditional (mmo)RPGs players identify and "become" the character they control, will try to make it progress, make it survive, love it, etc. How will CF players identify to the Crow or disposable corpses? 

 

Would it be possible for you to explain to us just how you envision this happening, if you do envisioning it happening in CF according to the current game design?  Thanks!          

 

Personally, if I find a shiny new Vessel which is of better quality, but it doesn't have the Disciplines or whatnot that I like, I'd rather just carry it around until I re-aquire those runestones, likely by purchase after the campaign. Incentive to win the campaign and drive the economy. After all, what the hell am I gonna do with a Vessel with skills outside of my playstyle?

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I am very interested to see how this system actual works. To see an actual functional account skill tree is the only way I think we will get an accurate grasp to how this system is truly going to function

 

Also based on the quote below you could cause some serious balance issues with this type of system. This system could make pvp a complete mess which would be crushing in a game so focused on pvp. Being able to mix and match classes seems like a great idea in concept but in almost every instance it ends up causing massive imbalances. Obviously will have to see it in action before we can see if it will be an issue.

 

FOTM?  A ubiquitous pitfall of skill based systems--especially those that make all skills available and you can inhabit any archetype.  Eventually, you may have all Berserk promoted Myrmidon werewolf/scout/standard bearers with a dip in exploration for level 3 stealth blah blah blah...

 

EDIT:  Of course, this will be somewhat limited by the general skills but, with time, I think you can get all those too, right?

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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It took me a couple of hours to process all this information.  This big announcement was definitely relevant.  I can't get this grin off my face, I like the mechanic.

 

The "vessel" resource is making the game feel more like a competitive battle arena.  Less me as a character.  More like me driving a car, getting a new car, collecting cars.  The roleplaying aspect is now more dependent on the player.  If I want my "Crow" to be perceived as certain race, I'm going to want to consistently play as an Archetype of that race.

 

I love the impact on the crafting aspect.  Necromancers build your character, runecrafters create powerful utility for your character, you also have to get weapons, armor, and hopefully more in the future.

 

I definitely hope the "limited vessels per graveyard" idea sticks, at least for strategically placed graveyards since you can always leave the infinite supply graveyards far away from the powerful resources players will contest over.

 

I'm not confident I completely understood everything.  But my summary is:  The Crow is infinitely powerful and can learn all things.  The vessel is what will limit everything such as health, mana, skill max cap, meaning we just needs to find vessels built for our build.  Although from what I understand, it will only be relevant for players who want to go beyond the 100 skill level cap.


How Can Mounts Add to the Crowfall Experience?  Caravans, Hunting Boars, and more.

 

How Complex can Mining be in Crowfall?  Mining difficulty, fatigue, infrastructure.

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Personally, if I find a shiny new Vessel which is of better quality, but it doesn't have the Disciplines or whatnot that I like, I'd rather just carry it around until I re-aquire those runestones, likely by purchase after the campaign. Incentive to win the campaign and drive the economy. After all, what the hell am I gonna do with a Vessel with skills outside of my playstyle?

Sure, but in that case you're not gimping yourself.  If it is an obvious upgrade (according to your playstyle) but you choose not to use it due to some attachment to your current vessel, then you would be gimping yourself.  If you specialized in axe, what good is a sword?  But if you find that shiny new axe, goodbye good ol' chopper... Soylent Green is people, and archetypes are equipment. 


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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I hope it's possible to change the appearance of your vessels when you use them, or perhaps to use a saved master template. Say if I made a knight at the beginning of the game to look like me, I would probably grow an attachment to him.

 

The alternative being the mass production of clones that I keep in a box

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At the same time i feel this system is awesome, i got devastated about it. When you guys said "Some will love it, some will hate it" you really mean it.

 

As a PvP game this is something pretty neat, as a game where there is only war will have a great pile of bodies, and they need more manpower to substitute and this just might work. "necronomiconomics" would be really a thing.

 

Personally... I just feel wierd to think: "This is just another body, i can get another one". I'm aware that it may looks less hardcore in other campaings, but still is another corpse on the battlefield.

 

Maybe i'm not seeing it properly, i'm feeling pessimistic, not about it working, but if i will enjoy the concept.

 

Yet "things may change a lot" and the design is nice, hope for the best!


Ples don mind me bed gremmer, i'm Apollo Gise

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One way to view this from an RP perspective:

 

It's like a type of reincarnation - your character (personality, backstory, motivations) is tied to your Crowsoul and part of the character development of game is searching for your perfect vessel.


tiPrpwh.png

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Maybe one day you decide it might be fun to have stealth on your Knight so train some stealth skills in the Exploration portion of the General Skill tress and then add a stealth Discipline to your kit. Or you fancy yourself a Scout Knight so you ditch all your plate gear, train the leather armor skills, train some scout skills in exploration and equip some scout Disciplines. The examples go on and on. This all leads to Knights who are very different from each other, and then they can promote. So the Stealthy Knight could use those same skills on a Crusader/Sentinel/Swordsman Vessels. 

 

Your "one" character really is your Crow. More skills means more options in what you could bring to battle as well as your utility.   

 

Can't say I really care for that. Sounds like the "classless" systems which ends up making everything seem bland.


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Sekket on Mourning. Bhorov on Test Server. Youma the Pirate wherever TSP has sailed.

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Here are my current concerns, though I would presume ACE has answers for them.

 

  • Character attachment

I want to feel like each archetype I play is a different character.  I don't want to feel restricted somehow in some way just because the vessel "isn't right".  So long as I can just pick a saved appearance and base build, all should be good there.

 

  • Vessel archetypes

Requiring a Crusader vessel to play Crusader would feel like an unnecessarily annoying condition.  Vessels should be base archetypes only.  I can see no advantage whatsoever to creating a hardcore dynamic of being gimped of your actual build.  If I find a minotaur, similar to my above regarding character attachment, I should be able to just pick my base build and I'm automatically a Marauder or Rampager or Barbarian or whatever their prestige classes may be called.  Many of us want a very hardcore experience in the Shadows and Dregs, but this would be beyond aggravating.  Full loot is one thing.  Losing your build would be entirely another.  I'd anticipate this becoming a very rich get richer, poor get poorer dynamic, and the competitive promise becomes lost to a new kind of power creep: your available build itself.  Recovering from a proper wipe back to full functionality should be reasonably simple to achieve (your vessel, your essential gear, basic discipline runes), it's recovering the added benefit of more valuable equipment (i.e. steel VS bronze gear) and higher skill caps from better vessels (I cap at 175 2h Mace instead of 100 despite my trained of 180) that should be the challenge.

 

  • Skill Disparity

While I have every confidence this will work out, there's obviously a potential problem when you not only factor in gear but now also your potential to maximize all the training you've done.  My hope is that we ultimately see something comparable to Planetside 2.  A starting level soldier and a max level soldier truly did not have a huge difference in the power of their class abilities.  However, it took very little time in reality to reach a mid level, and much more to reach even the next level (which wasn't max) versus all of the initial few to reach the midpoint level.  Engineer and Medic were a bit more noticeable, but the midpoint level provided excellent utility without being a huge investment to achieve.  Ideally, it will be similar, where reaching the base cap of any given archetype for its various skills is quick to achieve, is treated as an essential "standard", but is minimally inferior to max cap of that archetype.  While max level to mid level was at least somewhat noticeable in PS2 (moreso certain classes than others), they weren't make-or-break important on an individual basis, especially in larger scale battles where tactics and bodies were more important than any individual's class level investments.

Edited by Deioth

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I'll be completely honest. I think that skill train system is horrible.

 

I don't play eve today because I can't catch up. No mater how I play my skill progression is set. If I want to advance, I have to wait and waiting sucks.

 

Plus, it give no sense of accomplishment. IE:

 

I successfully smashed my opponent with my shield, it raises my skill!

Or

Next Tuesday I'll be max in shield skills. yeah!

 

Bag that **** like a babies loaded diaper and dump it in the trash.

 

I have not said anything about this yet but I'm in the same boat as you. I really dislike the system making everyone level at the exact same rate. It means your rate of progression is locked into whatever the developer has decided is the 'correct rate', rather than what your personal schedule or gaming skill dictates. It would be like trying to level up a character (in another mmorpg) and every time you open a quest dialog to get a quest (to get the experience reward) you have to sit there and wait while a voice slowly reads all the quest dialog. Why can't I speed read that if I'm a quick reader? Why can't I skip that dialog if I don't care about RP? 

 

If we had a situation as I described with the quest dialog and having to sit and wait each time that came up, I have no doubt the game would suffer horrible backlash from the community. But if we dress it up slightly differently then it's great design? 

Edited by Aguise

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Sure, but in that case you're not gimping yourself.  If it is an obvious upgrade (according to your playstyle) but you choose not to use it due to some attachment to your current vessel, then you would be gimping yourself.  If you specialized in axe, what good is a sword?  But if you find that shiny new axe, goodbye good ol' chopper... Soylent Green is people, and archetypes are equipment. 

 

Ok... so why would you not use this new Vessel? Some misplaced attachment to your old Vessel? Nay, if I can throw my old Vessel's appearance on the new one, and I can sell the old one for parts, then being concerned for feelings some players might feel is a non-issue. Like you said, you find a better axe than your current one, use the better one. I don't see the logic behind not doing so.

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Ok... so why would you not use this new Vessel? Some misplaced attachment to your old Vessel? Nay, if I can throw my old Vessel's appearance on the new one, and I can sell the old one for parts, then being concerned for feelings some players might feel is a non-issue. Like you said, you find a better axe than your current one, use the better one. I don't see the logic behind not doing so.

 

Part of that "misplaced attachment" may be pretty natural considering that has been a huge part of RPGs since forever.  We can use terms like "vessel" but until today archetypes were, presumably, our characters.  Now, they are just upgradable, replaceable gear (albeit more complicated gear).  The point being some won't like that much.  Others won't care.


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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Part of that "misplaced attachment" may be pretty natural considering that has been a huge part of RPGs since forever.  We can use terms like "vessel" but until today archetypes were, presumably, our characters.  Now, they are just upgradable, replaceable gear (albeit more complicated gear).  The point being some won't like that much.  Others won't care.

 

If you can get the same appearance and the actual stats come from the Crow, I don't see why one can't just move on with it. It'd be practically the exact same thing, just a bit better.

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Crowfall is entering the shady side of the cadaver trade!

 

Very interesting choice and one i was a little concerned about when i first saw the news update. I guess the only real concern with this system is now people camping graveyards which they probably would've done anyway. 

 

One question though with the concept of losing a vessel and accepting decay to recall it to save it, how does decay affect a vessel that has been summoned to a graveyard? Will it be the same as other gear where it just affects when the vessel will break completely and be unusable or lower the quality of the vessel slightly?

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I have not said anything about this yet but I'm in the same boat as you. I really dislike the system making everyone level at the exact same rate. It means your rate of progression is locked into whatever the developer has decided is the 'correct rate', rather than what your personal schedule or gaming skill dictates. It would be like trying to level up a character (in another mmorpg) and every time you open a quest dialog to get a quest (to get the experience reward) you have to sit there and wait while a voice slowly reads all the quest dialog. Why can't I speed read that if I'm a quick reader? Why can't I skip that dialog if I don't care about RP? 

 

If we had a situation as I described with the quest dialog and having to sit and wait each time that came up, I have no doubt the game would suffer horrible backlash from the community. But if we dress it up slightly differently then it's great design? 

There will be active training to a point.  What should be balanced against is that reaching the active cap should give you everything you essentially need.  My response earlier regarding skill disparity mentions Planetside 2.  If a comparable "mid level" is the active train cap, we'll be in an excellent spot, because then the potential disparity given the revealed Vessel system will not be excessive.  I'm hoping we see a difference from "Standard" gear and active cap against max cap and top gear to effectively be 1.5 or 2 levels of vanilla WoW.  A difference, yes, but not one completely insurmountable if the combat system becomes what it needs to be (and it wasn't then, either... with RNG luck and high skill)

Edited by Deioth

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If you can get the same appearance and the actual stats come from the Crow, I don't see why one can't just move on with it. It'd be practically the exact same thing, just a bit better.

 

But if that is the case, couldn't you achieve the same thing by standard character progression without having to inhabit a new body?  Luke from Tatooine cannot become Luke the Jedi.  The spirit of Luke has to leave the naive moisture farmer and then inhabit a Jedi body, presumably crafted by Ani Skywalker in the prequel--and he would drive it around like a Gundam until he eventually wrecked it.  Maybe then he'll try out a Sith?         


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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The "vessel" resource is making the game feel more like a competitive battle arena.  Less me as a character.  More like me driving a car, getting a new car, collecting cars.  The roleplaying aspect is now more dependent on the player.  If I want my "Crow" to be perceived as certain race, I'm going to want to consistently play as an Archetype of that race.

 

This is a big concern for me simply because pvp in mmorpgs used to be so different... you were taking characters that you spent a lot of time working on and building and pitting them against others to see who was best... with the shallow nature of the new system you aren't really going to feel like you are doing that... it's more like a moba where you are just playing some champion and then can switch with minimal attachment. 

 

When you have minimal attachment the thrill of victory or defeat can be lessened. 

 

On an unrelated note I think since they've kind of removed the value of choice and permanence in picking 1 class for a campaign and sticking with it, I'd like for it to be the case that a person can not switch vessels unless they die... perhaps it already is but I think this would at least add a little more significance to the choice instead of having people just pop out so easily and switch all willy nilly like. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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