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Ionbound

Concerns about the 'Crows and Vessels' System

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I think players who want character attachment are going to have it, unless they are attached to their skill caps and specific loot. I anticipate the vessel UI to have saved appearance and rune choices, so can always choose to have the same look and play the same class when you reequip, even if youre broke as a joke. Also i anticipate most runestones and disciplines not affecting promotion class skill types but mostly the general skills. So if you are always playing a crusader, for example, and you die, you can reload a white crusader soul at the graveyard for free while still looking the same and still have access to all your same promotion class abiltiies. You just might have lower weapon skills (not above cap like youre used to) and not have access to your discipline skills until you find some more of those runes. Thatsa loot issue and a totally separate attachment issue.

My understanding is vessels can only be lost in the shadows and dregs. If this is the case, players could keep their favorite vessel in God's reach or infected or retire them in the EK if they don't want to potentially lose them.

Edited by Qberto

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My understanding is vessels can only be lost in the shadows and dregs. If this is the case, players could keep their favorite vessel in God's reach or infected or retire them in the EK if they don't want to potentially lose them.

This is true but i was just trying to show that the sky isn't falling and people will still be able to have an attachment to a specific identity and playstyle that will remain consistent regardless of having to find new vessels (if they lose their vessel).

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Also my bet is even though we are immortal crows, when we make a character we will be given a choice of a basic vessel to enter the EK with and will always have these basic vessel options in the EK. This is where you will have the consistency if you want to always be the same archetype etc. The only time I think having the spirit of the crow visualized will be upon death.

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Blair said that only the Crow's name is shown.

"Hello!, I'm Felicia, the Dwarven Forgemaster" ;D


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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I will say that I really don't like the idea of the skill train system. It just seems like a way to enforce equalized skill progression on all players (i.e. everyone 'levels up' at the same rate). If they are going to do that, then why have skill progression at all? Just give everyone all skills at all times, ta-da it's equalized.

 

It also seems like you might run into the situation of.. 'ok I bought the game... now I have to let the game sit for 3 months... before I can play the game with my classes core skills'... there is no 'character progression' incentive to play more.. no matter how much you play you have to WAIT X MONTHS to unlock all your skills... I unlock my character skills by WAITING and NOT PLAYING? Feels really awkward to me.

Keep in mind that they've made it clear there is an amount of skill that can be actively trained.  What matters is that reaching the active cap should unlock everything you need and achieve an appropriate "standard" where increasing the cap from there is merely a bonus.  If they can accomplish this, then there's nothing to worry about.  If you ever played Planetside 2, there were so many levels of specific class "skills" that upped some manner of the class's performance.  The early levels were quick and easy to level up to a midpoint and the later levels, while beneficial, were harder to achieve.  You've reached the "standard" you really need and in a fairly quick time frame.  I'm sure we'll see similar in CF.

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Im more curious with how switching vessels is going to work.

 

Can we just decide to switch inside a campaign if we find a different archtype to become?

 

This feels a little MOBA'ish and will be a hard sell to some people from the outside looking in.


 

Rage Quit

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"Hello!, I'm Felicia, the Dwarven Forgemaster" ;D

 

To be honest this is more interesting than the normal MMO death system as far as RP lore goes. "Hello I'm Felicia, I reincarnated with zero change after every one of my 500 deaths." I seriously don't get people who RPed in WoW.


David Sirlin's Balancing Multiplayer Games should be mandatory reading for all gamers.

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For the second issue;

 

Really, tbh, it's just that you are the crow and the vessels are the characters you play. Loose a vessel = perma-death to the character. There's just the added bonus of keeping skills.

 

I mean in any other game, you (the player) are the "crow", switching to different characters or "vessels" within a game. Crowfall is just taking it from the meta-level and putting it in the actual game lore.

 

Emotional attachment can still happen; but it will be more.. old school (I guess?) because you can actually loose your character (oh, now there's fear too) instead of making a character your permanent avatar as they are in these more "recent" games. They become actual characters that you role play... hmhm! What a fun thought.

 

It also solves a lot of the " oh, dear, looks like I have to start over on all my skills because I have to re-roll my character :( ", as well as allowing you to try out a bunch of different characters, at the same time, and (again) allowing a slightly less punishing perma-death, by making the progress go to the "account" level instead of character (vessel) level.

 

Whether or not the vessels should have "affinity"/their own trainable skills instead of runes is a whole 'nother topic however...

 

ed; more content and stuff

Edited by Michael Fedora

"The enemy has found me, Ulic, but the enemy knows only darkness. I know something that enemy does not… I know the Light." ~ Arca Jeth, Star Wars Legends

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1. Eve is a lot of fun just starting out.

 

2. I have no problem creating an emotional attachment with a spectral crow.

 

What were your issues again?


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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Im more curious with how switching vessels is going to work.

 

Can we just decide to switch inside a campaign if we find a different archtype to become?

 

This feels a little MOBA'ish and will be a hard sell to some people from the outside looking in.

In theory you could.

 

If you find an epic vessel, I think once you die, you could enter that new vessel (assuming it wasn't looted or lost to the dregs)

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My first question is, will there be 'Crows' (Account ghosts) in the EK or Avatars (vessels) or both. Maybe some think that 'attachment' to a character isn't important or that the players will just have to get adjusted to this are sadly mistaken. Players do not 'HAVE' to do anything of the sort. This system sounds very complicated and is going to be a small nightmare for new players unless the devs have some very good start up ideas for them. In addition, helping new players with any 'catch up' methods sounds like it will make some players, as noted in many posts above, pretty annoyed or angry.

 

Second, the overall planned concept of the game begins to sound like playing Crowfall will be like 'how much you lose'. Decay, looting, character avatars being items in your backpack, worlds with guaranteed death so no identification with any world (campaign), reduced character identification etc...Where are the positives? PVP only? I admit I was looking forward to a rich environment as suggested by the 'Game of Thrones' as part of the original sales pitch and not a narrow PVP combat game alone. I really really hope that further development (yes I know they have more to come in dev) for the non-combat parts of the game will come out soon. As an Alpha 3 backer I have yet to get into the 'feel' of the game and this new Crows and Vessels system sound, well, a little confusing.

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I do think something to explain all this Legacy stuff should be important to reveal now. "Glory, Wealth, Power"... but on the front page it literally gives us no substance to these things then what little is already revealed.

 

What is "throne war combat"? What does investing in your "empire"/EK give you in return? How does one divide a guild's kingdom into provinces, and how does owning multiple provinces (including your own EK) work?

 

Some of these things would rescue those in you same place, Farblue, where it seems right now to be focused on Item depletion / economy & pvp.

 

ed; grammar

Edited by Michael Fedora

"The enemy has found me, Ulic, but the enemy knows only darkness. I know something that enemy does not… I know the Light." ~ Arca Jeth, Star Wars Legends

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1. Eve is a lot of fun just starting out.

 

2. I have no problem creating an emotional attachment with a spectral crow.

 

What were your issues again?

 

I think the above is more or less where I fall on this. Thematically, I absolutely love this idea. And personally, I have no problems at all getting attached to an avatar of a belief system that is so ancient it's forgotten it's own name. In many RPGs I try to come up with RP centric names, here, I think I simply go with my screen name, and play as a spirit of [insert whichever moral code I go with here]. If I don't like that, then sure, I'll start naming the corpses I live in. Here we go with farmer Bob the Knight and Gimly the Sniveling forgemaster. This vessel? Oh he died of pox on his pig farm, that one? Hanged for trying to steal the Thanes daughter..... ect.

 

I am somewhat surprised though, the big issue that I have seeing this, has not been mentioned at all. If we can train only one general skill ... Those of us that wanted a Crafter, and a Fighter (who have VIP) will no longer be able to train both at once. Overall combat skills, scouting skills and crafting skills appear to all be general skills.

 

At the end of the day, is this going to diminish my enjoyment of the game? I highly doubt it. Will it slow down my progression yes. But, why do I care? I've never understood the obsession with having to be end game powered in five minutes. This will allow me to savor the game longer I think.

 

Anyways, just my two cents.

 

-SkEyesOGrey

 

PS. To the Devs, I signed on because I really enjoyed the vision you put out on Kickstarter. These changes are just semantics as far as I'm concerned. Keep it up, everything I've seen so far is, in my mind, true to the vision you presented.

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As a transhumanist this concept of vessels really intrigues me. I was watching this game for sometime, on the fence about buying in early, but this idea tipped me over the edge. I find the idea that not having a permanent avatar automatically meaning no possible personal attachment to be pretty narrow-minded. For a good many people, myself included, adding in real vectors for loss improves attachment, not diminishes it. This all to speak nothing of the stories it could generate. War buddies reminiscing about past fights recalling their maybe much better, maybe much worse, vessels of the time, or how they lost a favorite vessel. The possibilities for me are just so alluring.

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I'm also worried crafters will be turned off. Outside of the tech issue this is making a process that worked well into a very complex process that has only ever worked well in one game. 


I role play a wordsmith.

 

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1. I don't really like the time progression system either and doing something in game for bonus exp would be nice but I see why exp grinding in this game would be a horrible idea. Picture doing a big battle you have people who want to grind exp more than helping during the fight. Or when people could be farming the resources need to make usful stuff they horde to make stuff to progress their crafting abilities. So the traditional exp grind in this game would go down hill really fast. But it would be nice if there where like faction set objective that once completed would give exp to everyone skill trees they were training at the time. This could open up options for diplomacy even within campaigns where everyone can vote on a leader who would set these objectives that everyone would work toward. Especially if some extra exp is involved :-).

 

2. The attachment to your crow seems like a minor annoyance imo. I see it like this, you are a very small part of something bigger and this game doesn't lie to you and say you are. You are a worker, you think you can be more? Prove it. Lead your allies to victory, accomplish amazing feats where other players remember your name, or be that go to guy when your side needs to get equip for battle and you supply them all. Your attachment to your character is what you make of it. I personally think they did a amazing job already with getting me attached to the gods you decide to follow and not much info are even out for them yet. But I already am motivated to fight for Kane and the side of chaos.

Edited by silhaku

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As a current EVE player, I really have no issue with the system. I think it could work very well in Crowfall. I'm pretty happy this is the direction they are taking ;)


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I think the above is more or less where I fall on this. Thematically, I absolutely love this idea. And personally, I have no problems at all getting attached to an avatar of a belief system that is so ancient it's forgotten it's own name. In many RPGs I try to come up with RP centric names, here, I think I simply go with my screen name, and play as a spirit of [insert whichever moral code I go with here]. If I don't like that, then sure, I'll start naming the corpses I live in. Here we go with farmer Bob the Knight and Gimly the Sniveling forgemaster. This vessel? Oh he died of pox on his pig farm, that one? Hanged for trying to steal the Thanes daughter..... ect.

 

I am somewhat surprised though, the big issue that I have seeing this, has not been mentioned at all. If we can train only one general skill ... Those of us that wanted a Crafter, and a Fighter (who have VIP) will no longer be able to train both at once. Overall combat skills, scouting skills and crafting skills appear to all be general skills.

 

At the end of the day, is this going to diminish my enjoyment of the game? I highly doubt it. Will it slow down my progression yes. But, why do I care? I've never understood the obsession with having to be end game powered in five minutes. This will allow me to savor the game longer I think.

 

Anyways, just my two cents.

 

-SkEyesOGrey

 

PS. To the Devs, I signed on because I really enjoyed the vision you put out on Kickstarter. These changes are just semantics as far as I'm concerned. Keep it up, everything I've seen so far is, in my mind, true to the vision you presented.

 

Well this is what I said on another topic that addressed this exact issue

 

Let me put something else out there. Say you want to be a dedicated crafter? That's takes up your general skill queue. But what about the archtype queue? I'm pretty sure most of that skill line deals with all combat. So you won't be going in completely gimped. Will players that focus everything on combat have a advantage during a fight? Well yeah they will but that doesn't mean you will be useless in a fight. It depends all on how they balance the skills but i'm sure even for the dedicated crafters the archtype skills will be enough to hold their own in combat. But like a lot of people said before me, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Focus on combat or be a crafter. Gathering is another line people will have to worry about too I believe so good luck with that one.

 

It would be nice for some exp gain outside the time base progression but I'm not going to complain until I see how this system works first.

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