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Ionbound

Concerns about the 'Crows and Vessels' System

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Yeah.. no idea we had so many RP folks around here. Seems like we used to get one or two about and the toughs would run them out. Now it seems its the most popular reason to criticize a new feature. Odd that.

 

 

Isn't it? 

 

 

 

 

Everyone screaming about the roleplayers.  White knights digging real deep now.  WHAT ABOUT THE ROLEPLAYERS? GUIZ WHAT ABOUT THE ROLEPLAYERS?????

 

 

 

#RPLivesMatter2016 

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Isn't it? 

 

 

 

 

Everyone screaming about the roleplayers.  White knights digging real deep now.  WHAT ABOUT THE ROLEPLAYERS? GUIZ WHAT ABOUT THE ROLEPLAYERS?????

 

 

 

#RPLivesMatter2016 

Roleplaying as an immortal soul taking a mortal body for a short time to wage a war against minions of other gods an an attempt to capture resources and souls before the world is devoured... how is that not an awesome premise as opposed to the standard D&D-stuck-as-a-single-character tripe that has gone on for decades?

 

If anyone if complaining about the role-playing possibility of this game, they are not very versed at roleplaying.

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Roleplaying as an immortal soul taking a mortal body for a short time to wage a war against minions of other gods an an attempt to capture resources and souls before the world is devoured... how is that not an awesome premise as opposed to the standard D&D-stuck-as-a-single-character tripe that has gone on for decades?

 

If anyone if complaining about the role-playing possibility of this game, they are not very versed at roleplaying.

 

 

 

I honestly haven't seen too many roleplayers pitching a gripe. 

 

 

Mainly the white knight crowd fighting for their perceived slights or something. 

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Yeah.. no idea we had so many RP folks around here. Seems like we used to get one or two about and the toughs would run them out. Now it seems its the most popular reason to criticize a new feature. Odd that.

 

Except for some of us RPers who think this is pretty kick ass and can't wait to try it out. I don't get attached to a paper doll. I get attached to the experience.


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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I honestly haven't seen too many roleplayers pitching a gripe. 

 

 

Mainly the white knight crowd fighting for their perceived slights or something. 

 

I think RPers and "people overly attached to their paper dolls" are kind of getting conflated. The second group might not really be part of the RPers, they just really like dress up.


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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Except for some of us RPers who think this is pretty kick ass and can't wait to try it out. I don't get attached to a paper doll. I get attached to the experience.

 

 

 

You're a pretty cool RPer tbh. 

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Except for some of us RPers who think this is pretty kick ass and can't wait to try it out. I don't get attached to a paper doll. I get attached to the experience.

bairloch nailed it. I've played multiple MMOs as well as create your own player (Elder Scrolls, Fallout, etc.) and never once did I grow an attachment to a character, yet I know every character, the characters were just versions on me. Crowfall is right up my alley.

 

Some lore that actually has been telegraphing this for a while, makes me think it's been in the works for a while:

 

https://backers.crowfall.com/#/news/hero-the-first-crow

 

Edit: spelling errors

Edited by Brokienheart

"Through the travail of ages, midst the pomp and toils of war, have I fought and strove and perished, countless times among the stars.
As if through a glass and darkly, the age old strife I see, when I fought in many guises and many names, but always me."

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Like it or not MMORPGs grew from PnP and MUDs which are heavily based in RP concepts. The fact that PVP MMOs have also attracted a lot of people that just like to fight and kill in games shouldn't negate all of the people that supported this genre before it was "cool". 

 

CF needs to decide what it is. Even from the KS they seemed to be trying to be too much for too many people. The result is every time a concept gets announced that doesn't fit one of the ideals of one of the niches they are appealing to w all freak out. The first being the EKs which set the hardcore PVPers on fire. Now its the reverse. 

 

Maybe they are better of releasing two different games. Crowfall which will be a MOBA on steroids with bigger everything and Crowfantasy which is the EK one steroids. Trying to bolt both of those worlds together is a conflict that might tear the community and the game apart. On paper it looked like ACE solved it, and technically they seem to have a way to do it, but a community can make or break a MMO and I'm starting to wonder if the very concept behind the 2 worlds isn't the main division point among us. 


I role play a wordsmith.

 

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Like it or not MMORPGs grew from PnP and MUDs which are heavily based in RP concepts. The fact that PVP MMOs have also attracted a lot of people that just like to fight and kill in games shouldn't negate all of the people that supported this genre before it was "cool". 

 

CF needs to decide what it is. Even from the KS they seemed to be trying to be too much for too many people. The result is every time a concept gets announced that doesn't fit one of the ideals of one of the niches they are appealing to w all freak out. The first being the EKs which set the hardcore PVPers on fire. Now its the reverse. 

 

Maybe they are better of releasing two different games. Crowfall which will be a MOBA on steroids with bigger everything and Crowfantasy which is the EK one steroids. Trying to bolt both of those worlds together is a conflict that might tear the community and the game apart. On paper it looked like ACE solved it, and technically they seem to have a way to do it, but a community can make or break a MMO and I'm starting to wonder if the very concept behind the 2 worlds isn't the main division point among us. 

 

 

 

This moba reference really shows your ignorance. 

 

Kindly keep that to your self. 

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This moba reference really shows your ignorance. 

 

Kindly keep that to your self. 

 

 

 

And what do you imagine the fact that you have quoted me three times, and insulted me personally each time shows about you?

 

 

 

A personal attack in a discussion is not only the lowest form of retort, its an instant victory for the person being insulted. Its a last resort attempt to counter a point with an insult to elicit an emotional response and derail the discussion into an argument in hopes that people ignore the original points that you weren't able to counter.

 

 

 

I've learned a lot from recent threads and seen some really great posts that informed/changed my perspective on many things. I've been having a blast here. Its what I love most about MMOs other than playing them, learning from the community and brain storming new concepts to better understand them. I'm giving you this one reply, not out of anger, but to help you understand where I'm coming from and why I haven't replied to you until now. When you embrace the discussion and refrain from the insults I'm more than happy to go back and forth with you, we would probably learn a lot from it. I don't always see all the angles and ideas or understand new concepts so I come to this place to try to learn about them and see how others see them to check their perspective against my own.

Edited by tierless

I role play a wordsmith.

 

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This moba reference really shows your ignorance. 

 

Kindly keep that to your self. 

 

 

And what do you imagine the fact that you have quoted me three times, and insulted me personally each time shows about you?

 

 

 

A personal attack in a discussion is not only the lowest form of retort, its an instant victory for the person being insulted. Its a last resort attempt to counter a point with an insult to elicit an emotional response and derail the discussion into an argument in hopes that people ignore the original points that you weren't able to counter.

 

 

 

I've learned a lot from recent threads and seen some really great posts that informed/changed my perspective on many things. I've been having a blast here. Its what I love most about MMOs other than playing them, learning from the community and brain storming new concepts to better understand them. I'm giving you this one reply, not out of anger, but to help you understand where I'm coming from and why I haven't replied to you until now. When you embrace the discussion and refrain from the insults I'm more than happy to go back and forth with you, we would probably learn a lot from it. I don't always see all the angles and ideas or understand new concepts so I come to this place to try to learn about them and see how others see them to check their perspective against my own.

You are both pretty.  Move along please.

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I doubt this concept was planned from the beginning because now they have to deal with changing the KS reward of extra character slots.

 

It does solve the big problem of "how do you provide the endless progression that many MMO players want and still keep a shallow power curve for competitive pvp?"

 

I didnt see the bit where they said it was the plan all along. I thought they said it was a change due to some tech issues. 

 

I don't think they said from the beginning (I misspoke originally) but they said early on into development they had this idea that was "crucial" to the lore and game. Which was my point, why hold back such a "core" feature. It's not necessarily a bad idea, but it's just not what we were promised. They said some things were bound to change (and the majority of us backers knew that going in), but they said they firmly believed in a few key components (destruction, PvP, crafting, etc.) and I believe one of those key aspects was going to be "eternal heroes" not "eternal stats". Do I care? Not really, I'm not one to get horribly attached to my character. But I'm not interested in taking someone else's stats and character. Or a fan of Frankenstein shops to get new speed boosts. I think the idea is interesting but just objectively looking at the game for a second, I need to step back and say "What happens if this fails?". It's never been tested before, and by the time testing for it does come (probably Summerish), it might be too late if it's a screwup. I don't like testing waters with too many unknowns in a game. Destructible environments, crafting, and existing skill systems that have worked in the past in different genres, all on board for, but as for introducing new things, I think dying and evolving worlds should be the only new feature never before tested. Not something like this.

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And what do you imagine the fact that you have quoted me three times, and insulted me personally each time shows about you?

 

 

 

A personal attack in a discussion is not only the lowest form of retort, its an instant victory for the person being insulted. Its a last resort attempt to counter a point with an insult to elicit an emotional response and derail the discussion into an argument in hopes that people ignore the original points that you weren't able to counter.

 

 

 

I've learned a lot from recent threads and seen some really great posts that informed/changed my perspective on many things. I've been having a blast here. Its what I love most about MMOs other than playing them, learning from the community and brain storming new concepts to better understand them. I'm giving you this one reply, not out of anger, but to help you understand where I'm coming from and why I haven't replied to you until now. When you embrace the discussion and refrain from the insults I'm more than happy to go back and forth with you, we would probably learn a lot from it. I don't always see all the angles and ideas or understand new concepts so I come to this place to try to learn about them and see how others see them to check their perspective against my own.

 

 

 

Stop being sensitive. Your response was full of ignorance. That is not my problem and that is not a personal attack. As much as I'd LOVE to have a VN level slap fight with you. From your posting, I have a real good feeling you're going to ragequit this game once you realize that it's an MMORPG and not a moba. As well as I already know what I'd learn from you is that you're not cut out for niche sandbox games such as this, EVE Online, Darkfall Online, or Shadowbane. But I already learned that. You're another of the types who like cuddle snuggling people's feelings and that just isn't my prerogative at all. I simply speak my mind and if you feel personally insulted.....

 

 

There is a comment to be made about boots and their fit....... 

 

 

But by all means. go back to your ignorant complaining and whining. It has never ever stopped the other bads from doing the same and I'm going to apologize that all my proverbial boots keep fitting you so well. I shall attempt to stop being right to keep those proverbial boots from finding their perfect fit in you and offending you so much. 

Edited by Tehrror

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1. I don't really like the time progression system either and doing something in game for bonus exp would be nice but I see why exp grinding in this game would be a horrible idea. Picture doing a big battle you have people who want to grind exp more than helping during the fight. Or when people could be farming the resources need to make usful stuff they horde to make stuff to progress their crafting abilities. So the traditional exp grind in this game would go down hill really fast. But it would be nice if there where like faction set objective that once completed would give exp to everyone skill trees they were training at the time. This could open up options for diplomacy even within campaigns where everyone can vote on a leader who would set these objectives that everyone would work toward. Especially if some extra exp is involved :-).

 

2. The attachment to your crow seems like a minor annoyance imo. I see it like this, you are a very small part of something bigger and this game doesn't lie to you and say you are. You are a worker, you think you can be more? Prove it. Lead your allies to victory, accomplish amazing feats where other players remember your name, or be that go to guy when your side needs to get equip for battle and you supply them all. Your attachment to your character is what you make of it. I personally think they did a amazing job already with getting me attached to the gods you decide to follow and not much info are even out for them yet. But I already am motivated to fight for Kane and the side of chaos.

 

I like the idea of this bold part. After Crowfall's launch it won't be much of an issue but once it has been out for a year+ the new player experience will start to look like Eve Online. So, I would love to see some way for new players to actively participate in something to get closer to a (power) competent position. Large scale faction based objectives that can grant some boost to progression would be cool too.

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Roleplaying as an immortal soul taking a mortal body for a short time to wage a war against minions of other gods an an attempt to capture resources and souls before the world is devoured... how is that not an awesome premise as opposed to the standard D&D-stuck-as-a-single-character tripe that has gone on for decades?

 

If anyone if complaining about the role-playing possibility of this game, they are not very versed at roleplaying.

 

Technically by picking up this game your are assuming the role of a character upon logging in. There are traditional RPers whom I think of when people say they RP but I'm not worried about them, they will figure out a way to make it work. I'm more worried about the people that RP without being aware of it, the ones that get into a game so much they lose track of time. I wonder how much this impacts how "into" the character/game they become and if it could have negative effects on a much larger group than people are thinking of when they say RPers. 

 

There is a reason even FPSs are now working so hard to give you a character you can customize, a house you can customize, a car/mount you can detail and weapons you can alter, it helps players connect and retain better. MMOs used to lead this path but after the park revolution the genre took a huge step back while games like GTA utilized what MMOs used to in order to keep people playing. 

Edited by tierless

I role play a wordsmith.

 

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Yeah.. no idea we had so many RP folks around here. Seems like we used to get one or two about and the toughs would run them out. Now it seems its the most popular reason to criticize a new feature. Odd that.

 

I'm also suprised. Its a PvP game, there is no reason to RP anything other than a calm, detached data analyst. Anything else? I'd rather win than stay in character.

 

If there was a PvE Crowfall I'd RP a hero doing the right thing, even when its not efficient. Unfortunately I haven't heard of a PvE game that uses the Crowfall resetting worlds concept.


David Sirlin's Balancing Multiplayer Games should be mandatory reading for all gamers.

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Like it or not MMORPGs grew from PnP and MUDs which are heavily based in RP concepts. The fact that PVP MMOs have also attracted a lot of people that just like to fight and kill in games shouldn't negate all of the people that supported this genre before it was "cool". 

 

CF needs to decide what it is. Even from the KS they seemed to be trying to be too much for too many people. The result is every time a concept gets announced that doesn't fit one of the ideals of one of the niches they are appealing to w all freak out. The first being the EKs which set the hardcore PVPers on fire. Now its the reverse. 

 

Maybe they are better of releasing two different games. Crowfall which will be a MOBA on steroids with bigger everything and Crowfantasy which is the EK one steroids. Trying to bolt both of those worlds together is a conflict that might tear the community and the game apart. On paper it looked like ACE solved it, and technically they seem to have a way to do it, but a community can make or break a MMO and I'm starting to wonder if the very concept behind the 2 worlds isn't the main division point among us. 

 

This is pretty much spot on.  I don't believe the Vessel system will break apart the community though, if it is handled with skill and tact, which I believe ACE is very capable of.  There are other more devastating threats that most MMORPGs face that could be CF's undoing, but let's hope they don't fall into those traps either. 

 

If you can't recognize why someone would have an issue with the Vessel system from an RP perspective, you simply have a narrow understanding of all that RP encompasses.  Tireless makes a very good point when he/she compares it to the EKs.  Some players hate the idea of the EKs. Just like biarloch calling those that dislike the new system "attached to paper dolls", people who hate the EKs call it "Barbies Dream House" or some such nonsense.  Both arguments are ad hominem attacks against players meant to belittle them for their legitimate gaming concerns/desires.  

 

RP is a rather large category that includes things like adherence to game lore but also draws from narrative traditions established even before MUDs and D&D.  Some RPers (and even those who would not consider themselves RPers at all) primarily appreciate these aspects of RPGs, MMOs or otherwise.  Therefore, it is exactly insensitive and narrow minded to be dismissive of those concerns, even if you consider yourself to be the open minded one for embracing changes--changes that greatly modify and potentially devalue the traditions of great fantasy heroes, sagas, etc.  RP, particularly fantasy RP, is not just about pretending your a Templar or a spectral crow.  For some (many?) there are other important, even essential, aspects.

 

Finally, I will briefly add that I personally find it jarring, and I suspect others do as well, that the Vessel system is taken from the most data heavy, spreadsheet loving, niche (though successful) MMO probably ever, EVE.  The inherent heavy "crunch" that many RPers tend to dislike is being injected directly into the jugular of CF.  This, of course, has been discussed somewhat elsewhere and deserves a continuing conversation of its own.

Edited by Regulus

The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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I'm also suprised. Its a PvP game, there is no reason to RP anything other than a calm, detached data analyst. Anything else? I'd rather win than stay in character.

 

I'm not a RP-er myself, but this is a very ignorant view on gaming communities in general. I can counter your whole argument by asking: "Why would you not RP in a PvP mmorpg?"


ZCcquVD.png

THE most active European Crowfall community. Join us now!

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I would like to add that if the 'Crow' is to be the anchor of the character/player in the game then there had best be some attention paid to that anchor like that which has been paid to those excellent Archetypes. Archetypes reduced to 'suits' that you pick off a rack or out of a box decreases their play attachment and thus, to some extent, the retention rate. The exclusive flavor of each Archetypes and restricted player slot made them important to a player. Now, the Crow is the character and I would like to see some dev ideas as to that player character development please. Even if it is only suggestions or ideas from the dev team presented to the backers for their consideration and comments.

 

In addition, the wide variety of 'powers' and actions and 'combos' presented with each Archetype/vessel will make learning to play any group of them more difficult. I just hope the memories of each player is up to the task of recalling which button to click for which power or combo and in what order and what icon means what! I honestly fear the micro-management coming like a wave and superiority coming from those with eidetic memory. Which I do not have.

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I'm also suprised. Its a PvP game, I feel no reason to RP anything other than a calm, detached data analyst. Anything else? I'd rather win than stay in character.

 

If there was a PvE Crowfall I'd RP a hero doing the right thing, even when its not efficient. Unfortunately I haven't heard of a PvE game that uses the Crowfall resetting worlds concept.

Fixed that for you. Man it seems we have an epidemic of people thinking their way of RPing (or thier not doing so) is the only way possible.

 

That said: Thanks for sharing your opinion, I disagree with it. And while I'll be playing to win myself, I like to surround myself in a RP reason for doing so, and like to build a relationship narrative with those I will be killing with. (And hopefully those I will be killing as well if that floats their boat) Because that is how I like to have fun.

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