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bearmans

Vessel System & Crafting

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If crafters really need 2 accounts to be competitive due to the design change they should have a shot to buy said account as a KS package price and value. How to make sure people use one to craft I dont know. 


I role play a wordsmith.

 

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One of the cooler aspects of early SWG I look fondly back on was the 3 distinct gameplay spheres, the Combatants, the Crafters, and the Entertainers. Think of the spheres like a giant Venn Diagram. Each sphere had their own gameplay and relied in some fashion on the other spheres. In the broadest of strokes:

the Combatants would use gear the Crafters would produce,

the Crafters would use credits from the Combatants to fund shops, cities, resource purchasing, rare components,

the Entertainers would cure Combatant wounds, and provide appearance customization to the other spheres.

 

There were other skill setups that fell under the parent spheres, like Doctor buffing fell into the Entertainer sphere, and Resourcers fell into the Crafter sphere but both of their gameplay was different than the primary professions. (Also both of these gameplay styles were emergent so it was pretty awesome to see them sprout up)

 

The glue that kept all these spheres working together was deeply rooted in 3 rules:

Everything wears out,

Accounts only have 1 character per server, (effectively 1 char per account)

A player can only buy so many skill boxes per character.

 

It is amazing how broken the spheres became as the first 2 rules were eroded over time (ironically "because it would make the players happier")

 

Crafters took a huge hit from the veteran reward Anti Decay Kit. (This also introduced the escalating arms race with items, new items had to be much better to be considered for usage)

Crafters / Doctors / Entertainers took a MASSIVE hit from multiple characters allowed on an account. Entire gameplay spheres once required by the Combatants became "alts", only logged in for brief periods to Buff/Craft an item. 

 

 

*sigh* lessons learned the hard way from working on the Live team.

 

I really hope on Crowfall we can make some of the more niche roles primary roles and not relegated to alts. (Yes I know, multiple accounts, but the barrier of entry is higher than a "create another character" button. Also if we can get some active gameplay/gameplay that timewise competes with combat time we can thin out the amount of alt crafters)

 

We chose not to go with a fixed number of points for a couple of reasons. Mainly the depth of the trees and scale of time will have players dedicated to a play style, there really is no reason to further gate via a hard cap. If you want to spend the time you can find some nice perks at the beginning of each playstyles paths though. (For example you might want to pick up a few skills in the basic crafting tree for the ability to place a Vendor Thrall in your EK to sell all those rare additives you don't want. Your Vendor Thrall might cost waaaaaaay more in rent and not look like a badass demon, but you get a taste of the functionality)


Thomas Blair
ArtCraft Entertainment, Inc.
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It is amazing how broken the spheres became as the first 2 rules were eroded over time (ironically "because it would make the players happier")

 

Amen to that.  Decay is the outflow.  It may feel harsh for everything to decay, but when you dam a river (even a small part of it), you create stagnation that is less fun in the long run.

 

Thank you for sticking to your guns on this one.


Nazdar

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One of the cooler aspects of early SWG I look fondly back on was the 3 distinct gameplay spheres, the Combatants, the Crafters, and the Entertainers.

A thing I've picked up on is that since Crowfall attracts a PVP-focused crowd, people seem to be looking at the game as if only front-line fighters are useful in combat.  I'd argue that a steady supply of weapons, armor, resources, and now vessels, are just as strategically useful.

 

The thing is that there's no reason for one player to be able to master everything singlehandedly.  Scarcity is important, and makes decisions more important.

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A thing I've picked up on is that since Crowfall attracts a PVP-focused crowd, people seem to be looking at the game as if only front-line fighters are useful in combat.  I'd argue that a steady supply of weapons, armor, resources, and now vessels, are just as strategically useful.

I see this as well, it's funny in a way. A lot of players are gonna be in for a rude awaking I think when they attract a group of great fighters but can't do anything because a more organized group outplays them strategically and logistically. I don't care how many times you kill me because you are a better fighter, if I have solid logistics behind me and you don't, you'll die the death of a thousand cuts.

Edited by ThePaulineIndex

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I <3 dev posts.

We chose not to go with a fixed number of points for a couple of reasons. Mainly the depth of the trees and scale of time will have players dedicated to a play style, there really is no reason to further gate via a hard cap.

Can someone clarify this bit of the quote for me? When he is talking about depth of trees and scale of time does he mean to imply that the amount of time it would take to make two 'character builds' in the sense of placing a fixed number of points in a character skill tree, under the passive skill train system, in any kind of skill point capped system is longer than they expect the average player to play Crowfall?

 

Well, with the rest of the system as it is, a universal skill point cap would indeed be another 'gate' on trying out different archetype character builds (by char build I mean points in archetype skill tree alone, not gearing/equips). Although I always visualized skill point caps as pertaining to combat archetype skill trees alone. e.g. if 'knight' skill tree has 3 branches, you'd only have enough points to maybe max 1 and 1/2 branches. This, in order to provide different play styles for the same class (e.g. 'offensive' knight who maxes out the 'offense' branch vs 'defensive' knight who maxes out the 'defense' branch instead). I mean it's already a given that a 'wizard' class will have a different play style than a 'warrior' class.

 

To promote diversity between players of the same class, I still think the new system might be more interesting if there were a limit to the number of points each specific archetype skill tree could have. Although that would depend on the types of skills we will be seeing in those archetype skill trees. If the entire skill tree of each archetype is composed entirely of active skills important to that archetype for different situations (e.g. melee vs melee  or melee vs ranged) then skill point cap would be bad and sucky imo. But if it's all/mostly different passives, then skill point cap might be good.

 

...

 

Hmm.. well actually, I've been thinking about it even more, and recalled, once again, that the combat system is inspired by Tera combat.. and In light of that, actually, I think I've been converted to the devs POV. Archetype skill tree builds would almost certainly be stifling if the combat system is good with unreachable skill ceiling. Beating Gunner with Berserker is already a nightmare in Tera with full kit. I'd just harakiri if I had to give up some of my actives and try to beat cheapass-no-aim-aoe-spamming-recall-pile-of-poorly made socks Gunner.

 

omg I can't wait... game pls

Edited by Aguise

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Nice to see Thomas getting us some perspective in the issue. The scale and time effort will be the cap preventing people from "maxing everything", which will then make crafters still valuable, as they wil invest so much on crafting that they won't be able to invest on combat skills. I suppose then that the crafting skills will be part of the "General" skills, which you can only level 1 at a time as opposed to the Archetype skills that VIP members can level up to 3 at a time. Seems consistent and easy to implement, eager to test it!


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Guild Leader/ High Elder

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I'm glad I bought 2 kickstarter packages - I'm gonna need that 2nd one for sure. I'll probably pick up at least one more before launch.

 

Remember, KS packages Amber and higher come with the Physical Collector's Edition that includes another digital copy of the game. This might save you some money.  ;)

Edited by Canth

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(Yes I know, multiple accounts, but the barrier of entry is higher than a "create another character" button. Also if we can get some active gameplay/gameplay that timewise competes with combat time we can thin out the amount of alt crafters)

 

This is what I wanted to hear. Though it's an issue that involves combat builds as well, since any new account has 3 possible builds to train.

 

1. Active proficiency (or training) must exist to keep passive training on full speed;

2. Maybe some cooldown or delay on login/logout when someone switches account (same IP and MAC address), which is a small issue for players that live in the same house, first because they have a different MAC address, and second because they're going to change account very few times.

 

TL;DR make multiaccounts time inefficient.

Edited by Fenris DDevil

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This is what I wanted to hear. Though it's an issue that involves combat builds as well, since any new account has 3 possible builds to train.

 

1. Active proficiency (or training) must exist to keep passive training on full speed;

2. Maybe some cooldown or delay on login/logout when someone switches account (same IP and MAC address), which is a small issue for players that live in the same house, first because they have a different MAC address, and second because they're going to change account very few times.

 

TL;DR make multiaccounts time inefficient.

 

I don't believe Blixdev was talking about making the mechanic punish people for having two accounts.  Instead I believe he's trying to focus on making crafting or exploration engaging so that you are doing it instead of combat.  Most people don't have 8 hours to game per day and because of that their time itself is valuable. 

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In the world of entitlement and instant gratification, it can definitely be tough to stick to your guns on ideals like the 3 Spheres mentioned from SWG, but it also provides a solid example of how abandoning those ideals ultimately detracts from the overall gaming experience.


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Chapter Leader

 

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It is amazing how broken the spheres became as the first 2 rules were eroded over time (ironically "because it would make the players happier")

 

 

Under lined and bolded because it's the most important thing here.

 

Make your vision. Take input and suggestions, by all means, but make your vision and stick to it. "You" know way more about what works and what doesn't than a bunch of whiny gamers who just want their instant gratification.


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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Bairloch, you are about to enter the no spin zone :^)

Make your vision. Take input and suggestions, by all means, but make your vision and stick to it. "You" know way more about what works and what doesn't than a bunch of [worried] gamers who just want the [game to be the best it can be].

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I'm not concerned over how long it takes me. So I'll just muddle along with my one account. Yes, I know I'm in the minority. Patience isn't a virtue, it's a rare commodity.

 

I got half way through this then lost patience :D I kid, I too plan to doddle along hauling my wares. 

 

Under lined and bolded because it's the most important thing here.

 

Make your vision. Take input and suggestions, by all means, but make your vision and stick to it. "You" know way more about what works and what doesn't than a bunch of whiny gamers who just want their instant gratification.

 

Its never an easy call. I suppose it depends on the game, the team, the community, and in a meta way (because MMOs are so broad) the very concept being worked on/discussed. At times, yes devs should do what is best for the game not the fans, at others maybe not. I think its why we so rarely see a game work out, because its so dang hard to know what to filter and what to ignore etc. 

 

Once in a great while we get lucky and someone or many someones far smarter than me find that magical golden mean of input vs output vs application and we get gaming magic.


I role play a wordsmith.

 

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One of the cooler aspects of early SWG I look fondly back on was the 3 distinct gameplay spheres, the Combatants, the Crafters, and the Entertainers. Think of the spheres like a giant Venn Diagram. Each sphere had their own gameplay and relied in some fashion on the other spheres. In the broadest of strokes:

the Combatants would use gear the Crafters would produce,

the Crafters would use credits from the Combatants to fund shops, cities, resource purchasing, rare components,

the Entertainers would cure Combatant wounds, and provide appearance customization to the other spheres.

 

There were other skill setups that fell under the parent spheres, like Doctor buffing fell into the Entertainer sphere, and Resourcers fell into the Crafter sphere but both of their gameplay was different than the primary professions. (Also both of these gameplay styles were emergent so it was pretty awesome to see them sprout up)

 

The glue that kept all these spheres working together was deeply rooted in 3 rules:

Everything wears out,

Accounts only have 1 character per server, (effectively 1 char per account)

A player can only buy so many skill boxes per character.

 

It is amazing how broken the spheres became as the first 2 rules were eroded over time (ironically "because it would make the players happier")

 

Crafters took a huge hit from the veteran reward Anti Decay Kit. (This also introduced the escalating arms race with items, new items had to be much better to be considered for usage)

Crafters / Doctors / Entertainers took a MASSIVE hit from multiple characters allowed on an account. Entire gameplay spheres once required by the Combatants became "alts", only logged in for brief periods to Buff/Craft an item. 

 

 

*sigh* lessons learned the hard way from working on the Live team.

 

I really hope on Crowfall we can make some of the more niche roles primary roles and not relegated to alts. (Yes I know, multiple accounts, but the barrier of entry is higher than a "create another character" button. Also if we can get some active gameplay/gameplay that timewise competes with combat time we can thin out the amount of alt crafters)

 

We chose not to go with a fixed number of points for a couple of reasons. Mainly the depth of the trees and scale of time will have players dedicated to a play style, there really is no reason to further gate via a hard cap. If you want to spend the time you can find some nice perks at the beginning of each playstyles paths though. (For example you might want to pick up a few skills in the basic crafting tree for the ability to place a Vendor Thrall in your EK to sell all those rare additives you don't want. Your Vendor Thrall might cost waaaaaaay more in rent and not look like a badass demon, but you get a taste of the functionality)

 

WARNING; SWG vet input coming :D

 

Thanks for the post sir, with all due respect from your position I believe it was SWGs real to life division of labor in combination with everything breaking in a player crafted economy, a lack of an auction house, and 1 account meaning your rep mattered that kept the community and classes glued together. I've been a DOL mark since SWG (my first MMO and the last one I truly LOVED) and have hoped every MMO since would try for a similar concept, sadly without dedicated crafter classes (or at least deep crafter professions to attach to classes) its never happened again to my knowledge. Frankly even player crafted economies are an unfortunate rarity (I assume due to the hell that is managing them). Auctions houses are now (unfortunately) "expected" and rep is a lost concept. I'm glad ACE is taking some steps to try to recapture some of the things from that past that players thought were less convenient-but made for a better gaming experience. It isn't always what we want that makes a game better, often its what the game needs in spite of what the players desire. I'm confident ACE is aware of that illusive concept as well.

 

The skill box concept (my favorite character concept of all time heh) wasn't much of a limiting factor at all since we could master 2.5 professions. (just remembering some of the amazing builds people discovered makes me smile). It was actually a point of great freedom. Given climbing up those crafting trees (wisely) stretched those points thin and nudged me to be mostly crafter based, I was still able to pick up enough combat boxes to enjoy some PVE and PVP. The number of unique specs made your character feel like it was truly YOURs. I also enjoyed that you never knew exactly what someone else was, titles often lied. It made PVP especially exciting. The TEF system created the types of "Cantina Combat" eruptions one would expect in the Star Wars Universe. Much like the DOL I dream of the day a SWG like skill system is embraced (and it sounds like that day might be closer with some of your plans). Don't be afraid to have a server with a "TEF" ruleset, the espionage back then was glorious and the random "a fight can break out at any time" feel made logging in exciting every time. ;)

 

This is the part where I'm going to be a bit more critical. Accounts being limited to one was something I also enjoyed because it meant your reputation mattered. I truly miss that concept, but it can easily be made to work with alts with on every alt having a sub name-that being your account name. Your concept seems like its coming from a great place, but is taking a broad swing where a mere thrust is needed when it comes to one account one name many characters.

 

SWG MMO-ruined me. It was like going on my first date with Madonna. After that it would be hard for any future dates to live up to expectations. (pours libations for SWG and prays to play another game that captures the "feel" it had while being aware a "feel" is nigh impossible to duplicate, cries)

Edited by tierless

I role play a wordsmith.

 

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I wanted to add I'm not coming from a place of "I know more than you do about the game you made" LOL that would be silly! I'm coming from my view of how the SWG concepts looked to me as a player and how they made the game seem or feel to me which might be different than how someone that helped design them might have understood them. Creation of the painting vs interpretation of the viewer (because that game was a once in a lifetime piece of chaotic art, for all its (Koster blogged) faults it should have never worked but somehow it flourished and became a legend that is brought up across MMO forums daily-our of respect and longing).

Edited by tierless

I role play a wordsmith.

 

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I got half way through this then lost patience :D I kid, I too plan to doddle along hauling my wares. 

 

 

Its never an easy call. I suppose it depends on the game, the team, the community, and in a meta way (because MMOs are so broad) the very concept being worked on/discussed. At times, yes devs should do what is best for the game not the fans, at others maybe not. I think its why we so rarely see a game work out, because its so dang hard to know what to filter and what to ignore etc. 

 

Once in a great while we get lucky and someone or many someones far smarter than me find that magical golden mean of input vs output vs application and we get gaming magic.

 

Today we have all these options. These guys can go ahead and make the game they want to make. The people who like it will play it. The people who don't won't. We're not in the SWG era when there was only a half dozen mmo's to play. Gamers float from game to game and back again. Trying to please that fickle crowd? Please. Just make your game.


I'm in this for the Experience, not the XP.

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