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CorvusSilver

Pros and Cons for the Crows and Vessels System

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I know that there has been a lot of discussion and threads made about the Big Reveal concerning crows and vessels. I made this thread so that we have a comprehensive list of all possible pros and cons.

 

To be clear, this thread is not made to discuss the system between each other; there are other threads made for that. If, however, you have any feedback on either good or bad aspects of the Crows and Vessels concept, post them here and I'll add them to the list when I can. Something quoted as both a pro or con, by either one person or dissenting opinions, will be put into the "Pro or Con" category.

 

Pros for the Crows and Vessels System include:

 

  • Increased appeal to people outside traditional fantasy MMORPG audience
  • Creates options to increase variety within campaigns
  • Having one Crow per account emphasizes player reputation
  • Solves CW/EK navigation and UX issues
  • Increases depth and meaning to death and loss
  • General skills don't need to be trained for each archetype
  • Vessels add options into player market
  • Vessels add more crafting options - Necromancy
  • Less data needed to store stats for characters
  • Allows easier access to multiple archetypes within campaign

 

Cons for the Crows and Vessels System include:

 

  • Decreased appeal to people inside traditional fantasy MMORPG audience
  • Possible Pay To Win scenarios with vessels and VIP tokens
  • Vessels decrease attachment to a given archetype
  • Possible issues with vessel gender not matching Crow's name
  • New system requires balancing and integration with other in-game systems

 

Possible Pros or Cons based on opinion:

 

  • Easier to "reset" decisions regarding your character
  • Using Crow name to identify removes anonymity
  • Guild membership is at account level
  • Power curve affected by vessels
  • Increased time needed for respawn based on vessel availability
  • Promotes/Requires change in strategic thinking
Edited by Corvus Silver

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Pros: 

 

More mainstream appeal outside of the mmorpg genre.

More convenience and options to maintain a fresher feel inside campaigns.

1 account 1 reputation

 

Cons:

Less appeal within the mmorpg genre

More ways to undo decisions

p2w creep

hard-counter meta

Lesser bond with characters because they are so disposable and changeable. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Pros: 

 

More mainstream appeal outside of the mmorpg genre.

More convenience and options to maintain a fresher feel inside campaigns.

1 account 1 reputation

 

Cons:

Less appeal within the mmorpg genre ~OPINION. Literally nothing but your opinion

More ways to undo decisions ~OPINION. Wasted development time is still wasted. A mistake is still a mistake just not a permanent one.

p2w creep ~OPINION Based on absolutely nothing.

hard-counter meta ~OPINION. Based on your view of how the mechanics work. Rather than anything that's been revealed

Lesser bond with characters because they are so disposable and changeable. ~OPINION. Literally nothing but your opinion.

 

Most of your cons are your opinion and are not at all based in facts or even demonstrable from what we've seen of gameplay or the theoretical meta.... Laughable.

Edited by Ranik

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Pros:

Solves CW/EK navigation and UX issues (If I am in a CW and for whatever reason wanted a break from PvP in the EK this system solves what was previously a gap in the user experience)

Requires more thought before action/ death has more kick to it (death in any campaign means a loss of some or all items, decay of vessel and items and even loss of vessels in deeper tinged rulesets; Those who plan ahead and have backups over those who don't , or who simply find ways to stay alive falls under risk vs reward and strategy)

Allows skills that would be used across several archetypes to be trained only once instead of starting from scratch (Opinion based: could be a con if you think that changing archetypes should make you start over, but I haven't seen that sentiment expressed anywhere.)

Opens up more variety to archetype builds: before, any knights that started at the same time, chose the same skills, etc.. would be essentially the same stats wise. With vessels adding a new dimension to stats, even players who started at the same time and chose the same skills will not be carbon copies stats wise. It requires extra planning or interaction with other players to be prepared

Differentiated based on rulesets and campaign rings: the outer rings have a more forgiving system where you can still keep the vessel and even some items, while more harsher rulesets go so far as to allow other players to take the vessels of fallen players. ACE has built into the system a way for most people to be happy (some can keep their vessels, others can join harsher rulesets and lose them) while still keeping the risk vs reward theme.

More will come as I think of them...

 

Cons:

Note: I like this system so I am biased. I am trying to come up with objective cons not opinionated ones.

 

 

Opinionated Items that could be both pro and con:

Could take more time to come back in after death: as you have to either find a new vessel or use a backup. However, we did not know what would happen when our characters dies before the reveal so this could be an improvement over the original (or non-existent) method. I would say it is only slightly a con. It is pro in the fact death matters, but could be a con if too lengthy a process.

Eliminated the extra character slots: the same functionality of the extra slots still exists, though in a different format. They are compensating those who received extra slots from backing (Thanks ACE!), but required people to change their mindsets of characters and alternates. However, nothing has changed in regards to VIP vs non-vip. Before, VIP members could train up to three characters in passive training (assuming 1 general and 1 archetype slots per character; I actually don't remember if the old system had both), while non-vip could only passively train 1. With 1 crow a vip member can train 1 general and 3 archetype and non-vip can train 1 general and 1 archetype skill. The only potential loss is to VIP due to the loss of the general slot on the extra characters (should they have had them in the first place. Now everyone chooses 1 general skill and must stick with it (risk vs reward) instead of VIP members creating alts for crafting, stealth, and combat (once again true only if the other slots had general skill slots).

Threw kinks in espionage operations: with our single crow name being attached, people can no longer create alts for the sole purpose of infiltrating other guilds for espionage. Make of that what you will... which brings me to my next topic

Guild membership at the account level: while actually a very convenient tool, it has some members really looking into the guild system and asking questions about subguilds and such. While not entirely tied to the reveal (some of these questions would have arisen anyway) it did bring about questions and concerns

Edited by FrostSword

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Pros:

Solves CW/EK navigation and UX issues (If I am in a CW and for whatever reason wanted a break from PvP in the EK this system solves what was previously a gap in the user experience)

This never really made sense to me... before you were just going to have a different version of your character in the EK, while you were engaged in a CW and they wouldn't share the same inventory...

 

How does this change just because you are a crow now?  You still won't be sharing an inventory between the EK and the CW...


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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@VIKINGNAIL They talked about this in the Crowns and Crows podcast here. At around 1:50, Blair talks about the holes in their UX design in regards to skills and how a player with an inventory could move back and forth between CW and EK and how this system plugged those holes with why it is possible to essentially be in two places at once (you aren't, your crow is moving back and forth which is why inventory does not go with you). I did not imply you are sharing your character inventory between the 2 worlds. This system makes sense of how you as a player and character move throughout the world(s) and plugs design holes of the game.

Edited by FrostSword

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Con (opinion):

The Crow has no gender while the Vessels can be male or female. This will create possible silly combinations with female avatars with male names, and vice versa.


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Pro:

 

Promotes either learning new playstyles (find an awesome vessel, save it for later and learn that class) or economy (selling or trading the good vessel) but Arkade beat me to the economy part.

Edited by dirtbag

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@VIKINGNAIL They talked about this in the Crowns and Crows podcast here. At around 1:50, Blair talks about the holes in their UX design in regards to skills and how a player with an inventory could move back and forth between CW and EK and how this system plugged those holes with why it is possible to essentially be in two places at once (you aren't, your crow is moving back and forth which is why inventory does not go with you). I did not imply you are sharing your character inventory between the 2 worlds. This system makes sense of how you as a player and character move throughout the world(s) and plugs design holes of the game.

Yes I saw them talk about it... and it still didn't really make sense.

 

Nothing has changed essentially... you are still using 2 different inventories in the EK and the CW... it doesn't matter if your avatar looks different or if you are a crow... It is still fundamentally the same thing.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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I know that there has been a lot of discussion and threads made about the Big Reveal concerning crows and vessels. I made this thread so that we have a comprehensive list of all possible pros and cons.

 

To be clear, this thread is not made to discuss the system between each other; there are other threads made for that. If, however, you have any feedback on either good or bad aspects of the Crows and Vessels concept, post them here and I'll add them to the list when I can. Something quoted as both a pro or con, by either one person or dissenting opinions, will be put into the "Pro or Con" category.

 

Pros for the Crows and Vessels System include:

 

  • Increased appeal to people outside traditional fantasy MMORPG audience
  • Creates options to increase variety within campaigns
  • Having one Crow per account emphasizes player reputation
  • Solves CW/EK navigation and UX issues
  • Increases depth and meaning to death and loss
  • General skills don't need to be trained for each archetype

 

Cons for the Crows and Vessels System include:

 

  • Decreased appeal to people inside traditional fantasy MMORPG audience
  • Possible Pay To Win scenarios with vessels and VIP tokens
  • Body-Switching allowing hard counter meta
  • Vessels decrease attachment to a given archetype
  • Increased time needed for respawn based on vessel availability

 

Possible Pros or Cons based on opinion:

 

  • Easier to "reset" decisions regarding your character
  • Using Crow name to identify removes anonymity
  • Guild membership is at account level

 

 

 

 

 

A few of your cons are baseless.

 

 

The rest are Pros as long as you aren't a carebear vilely scared of pvp. 

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A few of your cons are baseless.

 

 

The rest are Pros as long as you aren't a carebear vilely scared of pvp. 

 

I wholeheartedly disagree. To someone interested in meaningful PvP and tactics instead of a random bloodbath where the only goal is to kill as many people as you can before you die, then some of those cons are things of interest. Some are just common sense. 

 

For example, less appeal to traditional players could mean a smaller playerbase which might eventually kill the game. Whether or not people like you and me like hardcore PvP like the Dregs, we need as many people playing to support the game we will hopefully love because we are most definitely the minority.

 

Likewise, I'm personally worried about body-switching and I'm sure others are too. There should be a system in place to force some kind of dedication, so you can still choose but not change at whim. Imagine a competitive game like League of Legends where you could change champions every time you recalled...

Edited by Cerulean Shaman

Wearily do I sleep eternity away.

Without fear or haste, on bedding made of solitude and silence.

 

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I wholeheartedly disagree. To someone interested in meaningful PvP and tactics instead of a random bloodbath where the only goal is to kill as many people as you can before you die, then some of those cons are things of interest. Some are just common sense. 

 

For example, less appeal to traditional players could mean a smaller playerbase which might eventually kill the game. Whether or not people like you and me like hardcore PvP like the Dregs, we need as many people playing to support the game we will hopefully love because we are most definitely the minority.

 

Likewise, I'm personally worried about body-switching and I'm sure others are too. There should be a system in place to force some kind of dedication, so you can still choose but not change at whim. Imagine a competitive game like League of Legends where you could change champions every time you recalled...

 

 

 

What is with you kids trying to compare a moba to an MMORPG? Bodyswitching in the middle of a battle should be as difficult as it is in EVE to fly to a station and dock up and change ships and meaningful PvP? Like capturing resource nodes and kicking over sandcastles and resource denial of other guilds? Why is it while all these kids are freaking out because this system isn't like their precious WOW,GW2,ESO,SWTOR, AND the like systems they suddenly forget a few features.

 

 

Like the whole premise of a Campaign World.

 

Vessels are crafted. A majority of every day fighting vessels will be crafted vessels to fulfill a certain role in a certain type of conflict.

 

If a new person today was reading these forums. They'd think it's hollywood body switchers from all the sperg being generated by the exceedly soft carebears coming from the theme park MMOs. Literally every EVE player who's played in null sec or low sec and Darkfall players are grinning ear to ear as the 50+ page monstrosity of tears is rolling out.  I'm enjoying it anyways. 

 

 

#RPLivesMatter2016

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From day one they said this will be a niche game, not for everyone and they are willing to make less than popular choices so that they remain within their vision. So saying a feature will in fact make the game a niche game isn't really a valid concern.

 

For me its,

 

Pro

Adds depth to the Risk/Reward system by further adding consequence to our actions and choices.

Negates to a degree having to buy multiple accounts to play more than one class in a single CW.

Takes more time to come back from a death, thus further reducing the zerg tendency of large scale siege battles.

 

Con

More systems, the more difficult to balance and get it all working together.

Edited by pang

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Yes I saw them talk about it... and it still didn't really make sense.

 

Nothing has changed essentially... you are still using 2 different inventories in the EK and the CW... it doesn't matter if your avatar looks different or if you are a crow... It is still fundamentally the same thing.

 

I would be happy to talk with you about it and share my thoughts either in a thread for that purpose or messaging, but not here so we keep things on topic instead of debating/discussing.

 

Pro: Opens up new battlefield specializations and roles: mobile tombs: since they have already talked about switching avatars will (most likely from some sources) take place at a tomb or graveyard site of some sort, they have discussed and opened the possibility of new game play roles not only with crafting but with battlefield strategy: mobile tombs. More risk vs. reward and strategy elements.

 

I have thought of several pros and cons, but this early, they rely dominantly on speculation, which doesn't have much place here.

 

 

Con

More systems, the more difficult to balance and get it all working together.

 

Yep... t'is true. But when pulled off successfully is amazing.

Edited by FrostSword

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I take issue with a few of the listed cons.

 

Cons for the Crows and Vessels System include:

  • Possible Pay To Win scenarios with vessels and VIP tokens

You have possible P2W with anything that can be traded for real money (even if indirectly), but there's little to suggest that vessels will be substantially different in that regard than any other item; should we get rid of swords because they can be traded for VIP tokens?  Furthermore, the VIP tokens look a lot like EVE's PLEX, and EVE really is not P2W.

 

 

Cons for the Crows and Vessels System include:

  • Body-Switching allowing hard counter meta

Note sure this is a con.  First, it's unclear that there will be any "hard counters" so much as some archetypes that a better in certain situations than others; similarly, it's more likely that certain army comps will be stronger than others in certain scenarios, but that doesn't make it a "hard counter."  

Second, being able to respond to your opponent by changing your layout creates good strategy, regardless of the speed at which it can be done.  Again, think about weapons; if bow's are better in a certain situation whereas sword-and-board is superior in another, you get deeper competitive gameplay by being able to switch between the two.

 

 

Cons for the Crows and Vessels System include:

  • Increased time needed for respawn based on vessel availability

This is also not necessarily bad as it makes death more meaningful and makes kills actually force combatants out of the fight for a bit.  The system needs to not suck so much that players would rather stop playing when they die, but if it takes a couple of minutes for my opponent to charge at me again after I kill them, I count that as a plus.

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pang, on 05 Jan 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:snapback.png

Con

More systems, the more difficult to balance and get it all working together.

 

Yep... t'is true. But when pulled off successfully is amazing.

The increased difficulty of balancing a complex system is a con, but it can still be very much worthwhile if the end result is deep, rich gameplay.

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PRO
Vessels are a valuable tradable commodity.

Less data to store/track across multiple characters vs account wide

 

 

 

 

Con

  • Body-Switching allowing hard counter meta

 

This is a con to Bob that is winning and thinks his perfect strategy shouldn't be countered. This is a pro to the underdog faction that pulls a 180 victory by changing vessels to counter Bob. In the larger picture though, players are going to put skill training time mostly in to a primary, their most played, role so the vessel swap isn't going to be a hard counter at all.

Edited by Mayhem

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PRO

Vessels are a valuable tradable commodity.

Less data to store/track across multiple characters vs account wide

 

 

 

 

This is a con to Bob that is winning and thinks his perfect strategy shouldn't be countered. This is a pro to the underdog faction that pulls a 180 victory by changing vessels to counter Bob. In the larger picture though, players are going to put skill training time mostly in to a primary, their most played, role so the vessel swap isn't going to be a hard counter at all.

Vessel hot-swapping to counter, if made to easy, turns the premium account holders passive skill training from a options for play into a solid pay-to-win model.  I am not one to lightly through the P2W flag around, but the simple fact that I can pay for something that will give me a distinct tactical advantage is baaaaad.

 

PROs:

  • sense of continuity between "alts"
  • actual continuity between alts
  • reduction to the negatives of alt-itis, i.e. having to start from ground zero on everything
  • Something a bit different than every other fantasy MMO out there

CONs:

  • Need to ensure there is not a crazy benefit to the skill curve so vessels are not 90% of your character's power or it will kill crafting
  • As stated above, vessel swapping needs to be either at a set (starting) location or a very long cast-time.  If made too easy, there will be no (game stat) reason for the separate archetypes, just a simple switch
Edited by Savevsdeathmagic

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I've updated the list based on  input by everyone who has posted, as well as the decisions and quotes made by devs in the forums and other media.

 

In the future, I'll go through the "Pro or Con" category and split those points into their respective good and bad points and add those to the Pro and Con lists, to try and make this thread more concise.

Edited by Corvus Silver

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