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Archetype Focus: The Ranger - Official discussion thread

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Why does a vessel need a backstory?   Since a vessel is just body I buy from a vendor or loot from a dying world, who cares about the backstory?  My armor doesn't need a backstory.

I'm guessing that the backstories of these archetypes are written from the point of view of the crow in his first vessel, which is likely to be his original body.

Outside their reality, Todd wrote these before ACE dreamed up the "crows & vessels" concept.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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The Ranger class is why I play MMO's and RPG's.  I would love to see this implementation be equally viable in either melee or range, not just "can pull out a melee weapon when it runs out of arrows".  

 

I remember another MMO where melee was supposed to be an option but in every single situation it was far more effective to use the range skills than the melee skills - you were better off in all cases just standing at point blank range and continuing to fire your bow.  Other MMO's require the Ranger to "jump back" and keep firing rather than fight toe-to-toe in melee range.  I don't see either approach as fun.  I would much rather see the Ranger as someone who can "stand his ground" and fight successfully at either melee or range depending on what he faces.

 

And maybe that is the intent of this archetype - that the unique characteristic of the class IS that it can be a pure melee or pure range or some combination of the two at any given point and time and be viable.  I would love to see that!  Please don't let melee be an afterthought or "color" to a range class.

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One thing I know for sure I've never said lately is "Boy I wish my archer had a tedious ammo mechanic just like the good old days."  I'll wait and see how things develop, but I might already be distancing myself from the class based on this alone.  Other MMOs have also had ammos you could craft and certain professions that did better at bullets or arrows depending on flavor, but the bag space disadvantages and running out of ammo mid-fight eventually moved the design direction toward phasing it out.

 

In D&D I get it.  In an MMO I think I'm with the new school on ammo being an unnecessary mechanic.

 

Unless all ranged is created equally meaning Confessors and Frost-weavers have to prepare their ranged spells in advance.  Then if everyone is feeling the pain I'm not bothered by it.


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They did the same thing with confessor. They showed a picture of what it looked like fully textured etc. Then they revealed the powers later.

http://crowfall.com/en/news/the-confessor-the-flame-of-truth/

 

Yes they did, and the Confessor is their sweet sweet girl, and they were very proud of that "First look", and they did a great job on her, put her in pre-alpha asap, and the Red Headed Step Ranger will always be in her shadow.   

 

I was comparing melee to ranged and merely referencing the difference in the Champion "First Look" versus the Ranger "Archetype Focus" as both these skin-suits have been added after pre-alpha and they set a precedent with the reveal on the champion.

 

They went from "Templar Champion and a Cryptic Tree" on Jan 15th 2015 to "First Look:Champion Powers" on October 20th 2015. The "Templar Champ and Tree" was a weakish sketch of the Champion and the " First Look Champion" was a brutish info dump with previously unseen melee powers. 

 

Not so with the Ranger, so I pointed it out.

 

But yes you are correct they did spoon feed info on the Confessor over several reveals. However I was not comparing range to ranged. My premise is that the Developers have melee-mania.  

Edited by corvax

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No, what he's saying is that one archetype may have a significant advantage in a given scenario. There's nothing saying that skill cannot overcome this scenario.

 

For example, a Ranger will be able to win battles which they prepare well for against an equally skilled non-Ranger who prepares equally. This is because the Ranger is an archetype, as it seems, which gains significant advantage from more preparation, such as planting traps on the field and using their superior arrow range. A Champion, however, has more advantage in endurance and long-lasting battles, and a Confessor is better in team fights due to its AoE. 

 

Skill can most definitely overcome these scenarios so long as the gap between the players is wide enough [for instance, a Ranger who hardly hits his target will still get skewered by a Legionnaire/Knight/etc.]. 

I understand and agree that certain archetypes should have advantages over others and be better in certain situations. But there is an important difference between having an advantage and having an insurmountable advantage, independent of each players skill level.

 

The poster I was responding to did not merely say that some classes will have advantages over others (duh). What he suggested was that certain classes will beat others, period, independent of the skill of each player. It's like, let's make a melee archetype with 0 gap closers (chain pull included since it closes gaps), and extremely slow movement speed, but give it an autolocking instant cast ability that automatically kills any targeted champion player regardless of range. It's perfectly fine design because "This game isn't going to be balanced around 1v1 and people are going to have to accept that some classes will just win in such a scenario."

Edited by Aguise

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Ammo is a non issue. Any gamer that isn't a scrub will have plentiful ammo if ammo is required. It does beg the question of balance vs other ranged magic classes, will they have reagents? Either way ammo or no ammo it won't really matter. With that said, whats really on my mind is if this dual weapon class stuff will bleed over into other classes, including the ones already in testing.

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I always had my eyes on ranger but this ammo system truly connected me to it. It will truly feel like a living world , and just another thing that can have good economical impact. (Crafting very expensive arrows for specific tasks , such as assassinating most powerful vessel of enemy etc)

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Regents keeps coming out of ppls mouth like Ranger doesn't have a melee weapon. You remember Confessors melee weapon? Oh yeah.

 

A bow can operate features as far above mages as mages do over melee. But that binary design just keeps a knockin.

 

How can spells be like arrows is a vastly inferior mechanism from how can archery be different than magic.

 

I for one will be supremely disappointed if archery is remotely like confessors projectiles, I don't know why anyone would beg for magic to be like archery.

Edited by bahamutkaiser

a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Regents keeps coming out of ppls mouth like Ranger doesn't have a melee weapon. You remember Confessors melee weapon? Oh yeah.

 

A bow can operate features as far above mages as mages do over melee. But that binary design just keeps a knockin.

 

How can spells be like arrows is a vastly inferior mechanism from how can archery be different than magic.

 

I for one will be supremely disappointed if archery is remotely like confessors projectiles, I don't know why anyone would beg for magic to be like archery.

I think it is more of a question of how ranged dps is going to match up vs ranged dps. Not necessarily the aiming or spell physics mechanics of each. More of an overall combat power equality question. You may be correct though in saying that the ammo nerf is made up for entirely by the presence of a powerful melee power set to switch to. Hard to speculate on.

Edited by Unnamed

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Ammo is a non issue. Any gamer that isn't a scrub will have plentiful ammo if ammo is required. It does beg the question of balance vs other ranged magic classes, will they have reagents? Either way ammo or no ammo it won't really matter...

 

Reagents are fine, sure.  However, if one doesn't want to shoot arrows from a bow, they should not play a ranger.  I am of the mind that ACE shouldn't exchange archetype distinctiveness for sameness--perhaps. this is a luxury a group PvP game has (more variety, less sameness).  That being said, I doubt very much that ACE will go out of their way to create an inferior archetype.    


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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They have never done** an archetype reveal with all of this information, and they have only just started work on them.

They did a meet the combatants for the first tests for the first 3 we know of then did reveals like this one with screenshots of the textured models and only after they fully worked out their powers did they do a special power reveal.

 

 

Not so with the Champion.

 

The first reveal was on January 15th 2015 a sketch of the Champion only titled "Templars, Champions, and a Cryptic Tree". The next Champion announcement was a full scale info drop on October 20th 2015 called "First Look: Champion powers and it was the 3rd melee archetype put into pre-apha.

 

They did not do that with the Ranger.

 

But I see your edit below, I'll get to that in a minute. 

 

They have already said that the tame ability is a discipline and skill. Nothing suggests they are considering the ranger to have a power specifically for pets (from the previous powers we have and even concept art used the templar not the ranger when showcasing pets). They said that traps and hiding and dual combat are the focus, not pets.

 

 

You have confused me with someone who wants a pet. I wouldn't waste the training points, eating a pet was sarcasm, only Druids should have pets it should be forced on them. They should have to carry cat litter and dog biscuits in their inventory to go along with the silly pets.
 
The Ranger is not showcased with pets? Just the Templar? Ok if you say so Mr. Smartypants.
 
Crowfall_FemaleRangerConcept.jpg

 

 

 

 

**Edit: The Champion did have a single texture image and highlight of the powers in the second news article (first revealed both champion and ranger models). However, this was right before the test it was to be in, and we are still months away from seeing the Ranger in combat. The title also mentions nothing about ui and powers like the champions did, so it wasn't meant to be a ui and power reveal, just a focus and system reveal.

 

 

You seem to have a lot of insight into what they devs "meant", they did not add a focus and system reveal to the champion they went to full frontal info dump on the First Look straight from sketch. And if the Ranger is still months away from combat why the need for a Ranger Archetype Focus drop, hence my concern about the rush factor. When it's ready they can tell us all about it.

 

If you're happy with this half-reveal that's fine, I agree some info is better than nothing. But I noticed it was weak and said so.   

 

Anyway we are talking about skin-suits, vessel, an inventory slot, as long as the ranged is balanced to melee I don't care if it's a bow, sword or poleaxe in the slot. So let me bring it up one more time... there is a lot of melee going on in snap testing even from the Confessors. 

Edited by corvax

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Ah traps. Making a minefield of chaos. A pit of sharp spikes, Poison mist. Trip wire. Razor wire. All kinds of wire. Sticky traps. Flash traps. Bolder traps. Fire traps. dart traps. Water traps. pitfall traps. Mud bogs. Quick sand. illusion traps. cage trap. explosive traps.

And that... that's about it.

 

Easy there, Bubba. :lol:

 

I love the design of the archer; her armor is perfect. Looks like it will actually protect her, but elegant as well. I usually don't enjoy playing archers in MMOs because they feel one dimensional (this coming from the person who likes beating things senseless with a big sword), but I think it's great they're going to be much more versatile in Crowfall. I might actually be interested in playing one since they're not only relegated to long-range combat, having the choice to hang back or get in the thick of things. Very Legolas.

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And that... that's about it.

 

Easy there, Bubba. :lol:

 

I love the design of the archer; her armor is perfect. Looks like it will actually protect her, but elegant as well. I usually don't enjoy playing archers in MMOs because they feel one dimensional (this coming from the person who likes beating things senseless with a big sword), but I think it's great they're going to be much more versatile in Crowfall. I might actually be interested in playing one since they're not only relegated to long-range combat, having the choice to hang back or get in the thick of things. Very Legolas.

 

Remember kids an arrow is just a sword with no edge.

 

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My name is Toothbrush, Scourge of the local pond, King of this tree stump, and future leader of, "The Irregulars".

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So long as we aren't forced or feel compelled into being walking quivers like with other ammo systems or ammo is reasonably simple enough to make then I imagine it'll work fine, especially if she plays expecting to have to melee regularly.  The only way I can imagine the ammo system truly working is if melee combat is consistent because kiting has limited viability and ranged is only good for initiation or as an ambush tactic (meaning, less able to kite than Confessor and other mage range classes).

 

Having to carry thousands of individual units of ammo because combat is consistent enough to blow through over 1k in the span of an hour would be an excellent way to turn off ammo classes to most players.  This needs to be balanced carefully to work.  There's a reason "bow" classes in MMOs these days tend to have unlimited ammo.

 

I feel a safe fallback would simply to have a Quiver/Arrow slot that degrades over time, perhaps faster than anything else, to reduce the glut if it winds up being a problem.  Path of Exile's system would be a good place for inspiration here as each quiver type offers a small something to benefit specific playstyles.

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You have confused me with someone who wants a pet. I wouldn't waste the training points, eating a pet was sarcasm, only Druids should have pets it should be forced on them. They should have to carry cat litter and dog biscuits in their inventory to go along with the silly pets. --I don't think anyone confused you as one wanting a pet . I was just pointing out they already discussed taming as a discipline not something being forced into archetypes, so the worry of being forced to have a pet seemed unwarranted.

 
The Ranger is not showcased with pets? Just the Templar? Ok if you say so Mr. Smartypants. --My apologies. When I wrote it I was thinking of when they revealed and discussed the pet/discipline system and so under that focus the Ranger was not used, but the female concept does have the discipline system portrayed. I did not make that clear, again, my apologies. I meant to say the templar was the first case used with the later addition of the Ranger to showcase the discipline system (and by extension pets) as evidence that A.) The ranger has not been the only one showcased with this ability and B.) to point out that to judge an archetype based on 1 concept art image seems a hasty generalization which several people I have seen/talked to have made expressing a concern that Rangers would be forced to have pets, when nothing we knew suggested they would be. Only the female Ranger concept has an animal, the male doesn't and I did not see this idea that the Rangers would be forced to have pets before the female concept art was released. I also dint see anyone jumping to the conclusion that Templars would have pets attached.. If both the male and female ranger concept art did, and no other archetype was ever seen with the system, I could maybe see some reasoning, but it was already established as separate so even then that idea would not have held given what we knew/know. Here is the image first used to show pets (falcons) and other disciplines:
Char_Lifetime_Layout_RC2.png
 

You seem to have a lot of insight into what they devs "meant", they did not add a focus and system reveal to the champion they went to full frontal info dump on the First Look straight from sketch. And if the Ranger is still months away from combat why the need for a Ranger Archetype Focus drop, hence my concern about the rush factor. When it's ready they can tell us all about it. --I will not pretend to know what the ACE team thinks, or plans, and maybe that was worded as such which was unintended. The reveal discussed what new systems would be implemented and the overall focus of the types of abilities the Ranger would have similar to the first 3 reveals did for those archetypes. They have a pretty established naming structure to the news posts so if it doesn't say something about UI or power reveal, it is logical to assume it would not be in the article, which was the reasoning for my statement the reveal just focused on the system and abilities and not about UI. It isn't so different from the established method they were doing, as the Champion is the outlier here, and I have no idea why the Ranger reveal was not done later to follow that style. I can only speculate that it was to either fall back into the similar style of reveals we have already had or to give out some content to hold people over until testing actually starts. The impression I got was it was a simple notice on "hey, this is what we are working on for the next test, what do yall think?" so I don't see it being rushed, but I can see from a certain point of view that may come across.

 

Anyway we are talking about skin-suits, vessel, an inventory slot, as long as the ranged is balanced to melee I don't care if it's a bow, sword or poleaxe in the slot. So let me bring it up one more time... there is a lot of melee going on in snap testing even from the Confessors. --Of the 13 archetypes we have only 3 confirmed, as in they are playable or we have video of them saying they are a ranged class, (Confessor, Ranger, Stalker) who are full or partial ranged attcackers and potentially 3 more (Frostweaver,Druid,Duelist) though the Frost weaver also looks like it could be a split melee and ranged attacker (though its classification is ranged dps magic it has been seen with a bow and with what looks like some sort of close range weapon). So archetype wise it is pretty balanced. System wise, I believe they are picking several melee classes because each one has such different styles that need to be implemented and that seems to be then focus of these alpha tests: testing the systems to make sure they work. They have already worked on a ranged system with the confessor so can reuse much of that for other ranges archetypes but the different melee classes all have a very different style and set of abilities that need to be implemented and tested.

 

I have included a note on my original acknowledging my error.

Edited by FrostSword

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