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IdeaMatrix

The effects of vessels on crafting.

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I see a good amount of discussion about the new vessel system but, I wanted to focus the topic here on how it changes the crafting experience.

 

The first and most obvious change is the addition of a new crafting ability called necromancy. Whether or not this is the final name for the ability is still in question but, it's basically the ability to craft new and better vessels to be used or traded as a commodity. At this point the entire skill is completely conceptual.

 

Here are a few things that you might see as stats on crafted vessels:

1) Base stat increases

2) Stat and skill cap increases

3) increased vessel durability

4) vessel item insurance charges

5) extra lives or auto resurrection

6) movement speed/hunger/warmth conversion

7) Discipline enhancements

8) vessel import cost reduction

Etc...

 

This is definitely a wide reaching and somewhat unique system. I'm all for new crafting opportunities as well. However this change comes with some side effects.

 

1) Extra character slots for vip are being refunded because there's no longer a point in having multiple. All training is now account wide so instead of having a possible 9 skills training at once for VIP members it's now 4.

2) because of the above change you can no longer train more than one skill in the same archetype tree at the same time. It's 1 archetype skill and 1 general or 3 unique archetypes and 1 general for vips.

3) This means that no matter what you can only train 1 general skill at a time, which makes VIP completely valueless for full time crafters. In its current iteration crafters have no use for VIP tokens other than trading them.

4) This also has the upside/downside of making it very costly to train a crafting skill over a general combat skill for people who want to pvp.

(Since you can only train 1 general skill at a time, if you take crafting skills you lose combat stats)

5) Vessels can be lost by dying or by losing durability in some campaigns. The best vessels are found in the dregs but, are considered import items and may not be able to enter the dregs.

6) Discipline runes are tied to vessels so if you lose your body, you lose your disciplines.

7) It is possible in some difficulty levels to steal people's bodies, literally.

8)There's no longer any penalty for creating a bad character since advantages and disadvantages are tied to vessels and not your character.

 

There are other changes as well but, these are the main ones I've seen or can think of.

 

As a crafter, how do you feel about losing your VIP value? Will you trade your tokens away or use them to experiment with other archetypes?

 

Does the change to skill training anger or delight you?

 

Do you think the training changes will hurt crafters or help them be more exclusive?

 

Post your thoughts below.

Edited by IdeaMatrix

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Where are you getting the 9 possible skills for VIP before this reveal? The VIP still limited passive training to only 3 characters at a time (2 more than non-VIP) before, and you only had access to 1 general passive training slot per character, as I understood from the FAQs.

 

If before a VIP could have 4 and non-VIP could have 1 passive training slot, then VIP stays were it was and non-VIP gained 1 slot (though now we have differentiation of general and archetype skill slots which we did not have before).

Edited by FrostSword

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It isn't really too much of a change.  Honestly I like it this way.  Instead of having one character to craft armor and one to craft weapons.  You can have all that on one character.  Personally I think there is going to be a huge market in the vessels concept.  It is were I will be putting most of my time and training.  I might be speaking out of my butt on this one, but if you become master crafter of vessels people will come far and wide to get a rare one and will pay high price.

Edited by GaMiNgHaVoC

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First, it's Vessels, not Vassals. Vassals are a completely different thing. 

 

Second, @FrostSword, it was 9 skills because VIPs were able to train 3 characters concurrently, and each character was able to train 3 skills at a time. It should be noted, however, that all 3 skills couldn't be trained at the same speed. The primary skill would train faster than the secondary skill, which would train faster than the tertiary skill. Both VIPs and non-VIPs lost the ability to train secondary and tertiary skills, but gained the ability to train 1 general skill at full speed, so the effect is negligible.

 

Third, even the most dedicated crafter will need to be able to defend themselves. Lack of general combat skills will limit the crafter's combat power, but they will still be able to have a full compliment of combat abilities and power increases from the archetype trees. It's up to the individual crafter as to whether training multiple archetypes is preferable, same as it is for someone who is combat focused.

 

Fourth, there are still penalties for bad decisions. If you spend time training skills that later you decide are not useful to you, then that is time wasted. That will put you behind the curve of where you want to be. Yes, advantages and disadvantages are now on the vessel, but this was a necessary change IMO. In a game where skill training is measured in years, forcing someone to re-roll because they took the wrong advantages/disadvantages, or just because they want to experiment, is probably a little too punishing. Imagine you've been playing for a year and the devs decide that a certain advantage that you took is too strong, so they nerf it. What are you going to do? Live with it? Re-roll and spend another year to get a new character up to the level you were at? Quit the game? Some people will live with it, but if re-rolling isn't a valid option, some people will quit, and that won't be good for the game.

 

Part of the fun of having lots of different character progression options is being able to experiment with them. In SB, we could experiment will many different races, classes, advantages/disadvantages and runestones. To do so, we had to roll a new character, but leveling a character in SB was much faster than it will be in CF. Yes, we should be able to get a baseline proficiency pretty quickly, but getting to the max in any one archetype will take a lot of time. The new system allows for much more experimentation. Yes, it is less harsh in terms of penalties for bad decisions, but I don't see that as a bad thing in light of the time it takes to train.

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First, it's Vessels, not Vassals. Vassals are a completely different thing. 

 

Second, @FrostSword, it was 9 skills because VIPs were able to train 3 characters concurrently, and each character was able to train 3 skills at a time. It should be noted, however, that all 3 skills couldn't be trained at the same speed. The primary skill would train faster than the secondary skill, which would train faster than the tertiary skill. Both VIPs and non-VIPs lost the ability to train secondary and tertiary skills, but gained the ability to train 1 general skill at full speed, so the effect is negligible.

 

My bad, when I was looking at numbers I saw this from the FAQ:

 

Each account is limited to three (3) characters/avatars, and one (1) passive training slot.

 

I forgot about this and found the one about primary, secondary, and tertiary again:

 

Actually, no! You can train a character in three skills at any one time. They don't all advance at the same rate, however.

 

from a news post, which talks about this under the character advancement FAQ. However, I think that was before general and archetype skills were a thing, and to compare all of the systems they have discussed isn't that accurate because they were totally different in concept. i agree the overall impact isn't that great.

Edited by FrostSword

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To Arkade, I've been writing from a iPhone for a few weeks now and Vassel auto corrects to Vassal. I apologize for the typos.

 

To your point about gaining a full speed general skill though, the amount of total skills trained per day may be the same across a single character but, you won't have the same as the extra 2 characters that you're losing through this system. The benefit of the other system is that you had variety across characters in order to give me choices in play experience. Now I must choose 1 play experience. I may be able to train multiple archetypes but, with characters bound at the account level to guilds and archetypes bound to vassels, there's no benefit to having character slots unless you want a different name.

 

Ultimately, this change doesn't effect me because I already know what I want to achieve but, it definitely reduces the amount of choices available for simultaneous play. It will promote multiple accounts instead of VIP purchases.

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Differential training speed was removed as part of the switch to the vessel system. VIP players train all 3 archetype skills at the same rate, as opposed to the originally described primary-secondary-tertiary scheme.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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To Arkade, I've been writing from a iPhone for a few weeks now and Vassel auto corrects to Vassal. I apologize for the typos.

He means that it's VESSELS -- no A whatsoever. No worries, as we get what you're referring to, but it can be potentially confusing, what with "vassals" being a thing in the EK heirarchy. People less in-the-know could wonder why we're talking about crafting subordinate land-owners, :)


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I see a good amount of discussion about the new vassel system but, I wanted to focus the topic here on how it changes the crafting experience.

 

The first and most obvious change is the addition of a new crafting ability called necromancy. Whether or not this is the final name for the ability is still in question but, it's basically the ability to craft new and better vassels to be used or traded as a commodity. At this point the entire skill is completely conceptual.

 

Here are a few things that you might see as stats on crafted vassels:

1) Base stat increases

2) Stat and skill cap increases

3) increased vassel durability

4) vassel item insurance charges

5) extra lives or auto resurrection

6) movement speed/hunger/warmth conversion

7) Discipline enhancements

8) vassel import cost reduction

Etc...

 

This is definitely a wide reaching and somewhat unique system. I'm all for new crafting opportunities as well. However this change comes with some side effects.

 

1) Extra character slots for vip are being refunded because there's no longer a point in having multiple. All training is now account wide so instead of having a possible 9 skills training at once for VIP members it's now 4.

2) because of the above change you can no longer train more than one skill in the same archetype tree at the same time. It's 1 archetype skill and 1 general or 3 unique archetypes and 1 general for vips.

3) This means that no matter what you can only train 1 general skill at a time, which makes VIP completely valueless for full time crafters. In its current iteration crafters have no use for VIP tokens other than trading them.

4) This also has the upside/downside of making it very costly to train a crafting skill over a general combat skill for people who want to pvp.

(Since you can only train 1 general skill at a time, if you take crafting skills you lose combat stats)

5) Vassels can be lost by dying or by losing durability in some campaigns. The best vassals are found in the dregs but, are considered import items and may not be able to enter the dregs.

6) Discipline runes are tied to vassals so if you lose your body, you lose your disciplines.

7) It is possible in some difficulty levels to steal people's bodies, literally.

8)There's no longer any penalty for creating a bad character since advantages and disadvantages are tied to vassels and not your character.

 

There are other changes as well but, these are the main ones I've seen or can think of.

 

As a crafter, how do you feel about losing your VIP value? Will you trade your tokens away or use them to experiment with other archetypes?

 

Does the change to skill training anger or delight you?

 

Do you think the training changes will hurt crafters or help them be more exclusive?

 

Post your thoughts below.

Rant3) Your dedicated crafter will likely want to train up multiple archetypes. Sure, Forgemasters should be the best armorers, stoneworkers, gemcutters and weaponsmiths; but other archetypes will be the best at other crafting disciplines. With the Vessels & Crows (V&C) system, your VIP-trained crow can personally produce more parts of a turnkey vessel, thus generating more profit from the sale. I forsee a turnkey vessel (fully equipped, with disciplines and gear) to be an end product in CF, roughly equal to a VIP ticket in value.

R4) ACE intended this to raise crafters' and crafted goods' value.

R5) ACE intended this to raise crafters' and crafted goods' value.

R6) In the old system, runes were destroyed upon use, but with V&C, they may be recyclable by necromancers (we don't know yet).

R7) Yes, it's a full-loot PvP game there. See R4&5.

 

Q1) This raises VIP token value if any change.

Q2) The Jury's out, but I'm warming up to it.

Q3) It makes dedicated crafters more viable in the game. There will be many crafting trades. Every toon will need some combat survivability.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

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To be honest it didn't even occur to me that they meant vessel as a container. I always thought JTodd was referring to vassels meaning follower of your crow or God. Fixed again.

Again, no worries. I aim only to inform, and collaboratively vanquish those ambushy misunderstandings we all encounter. 8)


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There's no such word as vassel. It's either vassal (subordinate) or vessel (container). Crows use corpses as vessels and can grant Eternal Kingdom lands to their vassals.


Official "Bad Person" of Crowfall

"I think 1/3rd of my postcount is telling people that we aren't turning into a PvE / casual / broad audience game." -

Tully

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There's no such word as vassel. It's either vassal (subordinate) or vessel (container). Crows use corpses as vessels and can grant Eternal Kingdom lands to their vassals.

Right. I understand the difference. I just don't use vassal enough to spell it correctly I guess. It should be fixed income the op post.

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As someone mostly new to this game and its concepts, maybe someone can explain to me if my thoughts on this are correct or not. Does Crowfall have systems in it that will prevent the below scenario from occurring, over a long period of time?

 

The scenario being this...

 

It seems to me that, over the LONG run (months, years, whatever), crows and vessels would only hurt the economy. Perhaps it would take as much as years to get to this point, as mentioned, but with all skills saved on the crow, and passive training being available, in theory, given enough time, wouldn't that mean that everyone could pick up a partial or even full set of crafter skills?

 

Using the passive training, however slow and limited time-wise, would effectively remove the tedium of having to level up a trade skill by hand. That's a big barrier for tradeskills in many MMO's. While it's a terribly ugly, non-elegant solution, it DOES prevent a situation where an entire player base eventually has maxed out tradeskills, or near to it.

 

If the hypothetical situation of most players having maxed out tradeskills occurred, it would in turn grind economy flow to a halt, or slow it to a crawl. For example: Why would I buy a replacement sword from Mr. Master Blacksmith, if I could make one myself?

 

It seems like having passive training to work on a tradeskill which is stored on your account level, defeats a large part of the purpose of a UO-type item decaying, flowing economy. Raw materials, like in other MMOs without item decay, remain the high value items but beyond that, everything else stops moving through the economy, because most players can just make replacements themselves.

 

I understand that such a scenario would take a long time to develop. And I also understand that I may not know enough about Crowfall's systems to judge whether or not this thought/concern is accurate here, but that's why I'm posting in this thread.

 

Any thoughts?

Edited by Nulric

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Mhh...I guess, in a long, loooong time run, that could probably happen.

But, as seen on the forums, there's a part of the playerbase that isn't terrible interrested in the EK and the crafting part of the game. True, perhaps one day all of those Dregs-Hunters maxed out aaaaaall the general fighting, stealthing, exploring and what-not skills there are, and finally, without anything to skill, they'll turn to crafting. And then, someday, again very far away from launch, they're good enough to craft there own basic-level weapons. But in the time they need to get that far, the players who started to skill crafting will be on masterlevel. So, if you want to have that legendary, named blade Excullibar, than you have to buy it from IdealMatrix. e.g.

I know, thats not really solid bullet-proof arguments against your scenario. But, given that we know near to nothing about the campaigns and the crafting in itself, we can't do anything but speculate.

 

Oh, and hope :D  that ArtCraft has something up their sleeves, and doesn't make the same mistakes that brought the economy of other games to their knees.

Edited by Akineko

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You know, I think you're right Akineko. It comes down, especially, to the time it takes to passive train a skill up there (and how many total skills exist as well).

 

Also, upon reflection, it occurred to me that my concern about this being part of the vessel/crow system perhaps is not completely fair. In the end, even if we had a traditional character creation system going on, passive training would still make this a concern. As an aside, I'm not hinting here that I don't like passive training. On the contrary, I think that's a neat feature.

 

With that said, again your points are quite valid. We know very little about the details, and if ArtCraft is putting the sort of thought into this we know they must have, I'm sure they have ideas about addressing this all. I'm definitely quite interested in seeing what they have to come!

Edited by Nulric

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You know, I think you're right Akineko. It comes down, especially, to the time it takes to passive train a skill up there (and how many total skills exist as well).

 

Also, upon reflection, it occurred to me that my concern about this being part of the vessel/crow system perhaps is not completely fair. In the end, even if we had a traditional character creation system going on, passive training would still make this a concern. As an aside, I'm not hinting here that I don't like passive training. On the contrary, I think that's a neat feature.

 

With that said, again your points are quite valid. We know very little about the details, and if ArtCraft is putting the sort of thought into this we know they must have, I'm sure they have ideas about addressing this all. I'm definitely quite interested in seeing what they have to come!

In my feedback to ACE on their latest survey for active testers, I wrote about wanting an alternatives-based training system.  The basic premise is that people have the option to become expert at anything, but have to choose among alternatives.  This is vastly superior to letting people train everything, especially from a social interactions/economy standpoint.  Your guild better experiment with the right combination of armorcrafters of all types, weaponcrafters of all types, resource gatherers, necromancers and vessel builders, thrall capturers, etc.

 

I suspect that some of the vessel crafting and necromancy is already behind this kind of "choice" wall because specialization can be hidden in disciplines.  But, I'd still like to hear generally that they are re-thinking the passive training system so that it isn't just a question of what order to train in, but what skills to pick and put in tandem.  And please, please make it permanent or, at the very least, extremely costly to respec.

Edited by mctan

Mic MWH, Member of Mithril Warhammers since 2003,


Hammers High! http://www.mithrilwarhammers.com

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As someone mostly new to this game and its concepts, maybe someone can explain to me if my thoughts on this are correct or not. Does Crowfall have systems in it that will prevent the below scenario from occurring, over a long period of time?

 

The scenario being this...

 

It seems to me that, over the LONG run (months, years, whatever), crows and vessels would only hurt the economy. Perhaps it would take as much as years to get to this point, as mentioned, but with all skills saved on the crow, and passive training being available, in theory, given enough time, wouldn't that mean that everyone could pick up a partial or even full set of crafter skills?

 

Using the passive training, however slow and limited time-wise, would effectively remove the tedium of having to level up a trade skill by hand. That's a big barrier for tradeskills in many MMO's. While it's a terribly ugly, non-elegant solution, it DOES prevent a situation where an entire player base eventually has maxed out tradeskills, or near to it.

 

If the hypothetical situation of most players having maxed out tradeskills occurred, it would in turn grind economy flow to a halt, or slow it to a crawl. For example: Why would I buy a replacement sword from Mr. Master Blacksmith, if I could make one myself?

 

It seems like having passive training to work on a tradeskill which is stored on your account level, defeats a large part of the purpose of a UO-type item decaying, flowing economy. Raw materials, like in other MMOs without item decay, remain the high value items but beyond that, everything else stops moving through the economy, because most players can just make replacements themselves.

 

I understand that such a scenario would take a long time to develop. And I also understand that I may not know enough about Crowfall's systems to judge whether or not this thought/concern is accurate here, but that's why I'm posting in this thread.

 

Any thoughts?

Does EvE have an economy grinding to a halt?  Our vessels in this game will be similar in concept to EvE ships.  Our vessels can be killed and looted in some campaigns.  We don't know yet how crafting will actually play out, but if we make some mental jumps that CF will have some similarities to EvE, then it is a theory that crafting in CF will be more about resources, time investment, and not being top crafter, but top seller.  Supply and demand will automatically help with the economics.  Because we have gear degradation items will need to be replaced and that means we will need crafters.

 

The time aspect of training still sees 2nd or 3rd accounts in EvE, because players want to be able to have a primary combat character, and then an alternate crafting character.  While many can do this, the state of the game still means self sufficiency is not realistically an option.

 

In the end though, only people that find crafting fun will actually do it; and not everyone finds crafting fun.

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I think my largest concern lays not in the system itself, but in the customizability of the end good. If you want to keep the economy from stagnating at the finishline with this system, then you need to introduce an element of customization which can only be obtained by player crafter of great skill. I think that one of the finer systems which has been achieved was 'path' or 'specification' crafting items. 

  • In a system where players can only choose one Specialization within the craft, they can only produce on set of end tier gear. 
  • This means that players will be required to reach out to other players in order to obtain items from another specialization.

Basically, your player base is going to be broken into those who are seeking the 'Solo' experience, and those seeking the 'Reliance on Other's' experience. The solo players need a mechanism by which to gain access to everything with time, grinding, and patience. Perhaps this involves a quest, or other 'recertification' of the crafting system which allows them to run the system again. 

 

But for the 'Rely on Others' route you'll want to value individual crafters to create. I think that unique powers, the ability to combine items in a unique way, and individual empowerment are huge aspects to the creation of a long lived crafting system.

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