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Scree

Reversing The Slow And Painful Decay Of The MMO Genre

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In a "massively multiplayer online game", without our dependence on each other, we are merely left with what amounts to a mostly single player experience.

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Very good.  This is one of the things that attracted me to CF--it is built on player driven content.  And, as you say, CF takes out a lot of the convenience features that makes MMORPGs dull.  I also like the one character per account choice because it does require you to make some commitments--both socially and as far as progression goes.  Of course, I think many serious players will have at least 2 accounts, one for crafting and one for campaigns.  I'd really like to try to do it with just one, as I don't usually care for crafting myself. CF would be almost my ideal MMORGP if it wasn't for most of what the Vessel system brings to the game (though I won't debate that here).  Some of my concerns will be mitigated, however, if it really is difficult to diversify into multiple archetypes with a single account.  If it is relatively simple to be effective with multiple archetypes, then I think ACE will have perhaps traded one kind of convenience for another.    


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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Thanks guys, I always love the Jurassic Park tie ins haha ;0

 

@Regulus; I think for their to be a true level of dependence on other players, you almost have to create tradeskills that go an opposite direction from combat-related skills. Over time this rewards the crafters focused on their tradeskills. At the sametime I think it would be interesting to force players to go into promotion classes tied to specific Archetypes to become true masters of their craft.

 

For example; You must chose Frostweaver and promote to Necromancer to become a real expert at crafting Vessels. The skill trees would support this, and it would require real focus and dedication to crafting to reach the heights of that tradeskill.

 

The way it seems to be right now is that crafting is mostly tied with the generic-path training skills and perhaps some discipline runes. The specifics seem a bit vague for obvious reasons.

 

Tying "master-level" crafting to a deep portion of the promotion tiers of archetype advancement will really separate the crafters from each other. I think by placing the crafting skills into a deeper portion of a combat class, these crafters can still survive out in the wild. The alternative of course would be to create a pure crafter archetype with little to no combat skills, but I see that ultimately causing players to flee this game. Forcing players to pick between survival OR producing goods for others is rarely a choice those types of players will enjoy being forced into. 

 

Whats interesting to me, is this sort of runs contrary to my original position on the lack of a central market place. I originally advocated FOR one, but for the wrong EVE-inspired reasons. I wanted to be able to have access to and to assess the value of the various goods that are out there. It would make assigning value to them simpler and enhance any API-driven data products that fans might put together.

 

Also, I don't mind the notion that players might need 2-3 accounts to truly explore every aspect of the game. Thats one of the really powerful statements this game can make. I think only EVE truly has led hardcore players down that similar path. Its good financially for the developers and gives players what they want. Meaningful deep progression.

Edited by scree

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Scree, that is an excellent article. One thing that has killed me about newer MMOs IS the fact that every person was an island (oh and multiple guilds...I shudder every time I saw it).

 

Now for all this jibbity-jab over semantics that have been taken too far out of proportion.

 

 

 

The convenience that is being talked about in Scree's original post was that it was convenient for players to straight up ignore each other. Coming from more older school style games I found it was the group interactions that made the game much more interesting. I played ESO when it was first released and I just remember everyone running around, killing mobs in their own groups and essentially making it even harder to level up. In SB on n00b Isle you pretty much hit the first 5 or 6 levels quick and then everyone knew to head to one point and group up with anyone else who was there to get to whichever level it was that kicked you off the Island.  The way CF differs is that they are making it much less convenient to work alone, that's the convenience that was being addressed.

 

If I can pick any archetype I want, it makes me less reliant on other players because I have more options at my disposal... This is a convenience feature that helps you to be able to ignore players more frequently. 

 

You can't really say it is less convenient to work alone when you have more options on what you can do by yourself...  It's kinda like how gw2 removed the holy trinity... they may have "dynamic events" and they may have started adding raids... but the actual dependency you have on others was very little in the live version, it was more like 2 people standing next to each other barely interacting compared to the old mmos where synergy and true teamwork were much more emphasized.  This is why you saw gw2 start to work towards the trinity in their expansion...

 

 

 

Example (using generic MMO classes here): A player who dedicates them as a healer for the entire campaign vs. A player who plays a tank, a mage, and a healer. After 3 months in a 6 month campaign a non-VIP healer who has dedicated themselves to one archetype will have, not only a larger skill set, but also a larger knowledge of the intimacies of their character and their class than someone who is a non-VIP who plays the holy trinity equally.

 

Ok and a vip player can train 3 archetypes at full speed and have more options available to them.. which is convenience...

 

In a majority of the Campaign Worlds, minus the Dregs, we now are fighting, not as individuals, but as groups. A group who has several dedicated characters will now have, within that group, several people who have much more knowledge and skills than another group who has been bouncing from Vessel to Vessel.

 

This may be how things work at very entry levels of skill... this is not how things work at high levels of skill... versatility reigns supreme over one trick ponies...  You can basically look at any super competitive game to see this...

 

I am sure someone can see an advantage to that.

 

On top of that, I would redirect you and have you re-watch the Crows and Vessels System video. Non VIP players get to train 1 general and 1 archetype skill at a time. VIP members get 1 general and 3 archetype skills. VIP members have a nice advantage when it comes to cross archetype training, however a dedicated single class trainer will still have the advantage.

 

No... they would still not have the advantage... but if you'd like to make an argument for how 1 person training 1 archetype at full speed has an advantage over someone training 3 archetypes at full speed go right ahead.

 

 

There has been no indication of any sort as to how the nitty gritty mechanics will run, that's just being petty.

 

They've given a few examples subject to change... and those examples did not indicate gaining 50 skill points in 5months... it's not petty... it's reality...

 

 

 

Nothing in the old system ever suggested that it would be a one character per campaign system. This is from the first 30 or so seconds of the Dying Worlds video.

 

They've actually implied many times in the old system that they were leaning towards things like 1 character per campaign...

 

JT Coleman - "Typically…characters are locked to a particular server, so we've changed that.  The characters can actually go from one server to the next to the next."

 

In fact, it seems that the people at ACE are doing you a bit of a favor with the Vessel system.

 

Obviously characters can go from one server to the next as worlds die down... compared to persistent worlds where they pick a server and they are essentially locked there (unless the game has a server xfer feature which some mmos do)

 

And even in the new vessel system... accounts will go from world to world as campaigns die and new ones sprout up... perhaps you misunderstood?

 

--

 

In conclusion, what scree was so nicely getting at was that MMOs have become more like single player games with little need for social interaction. Guilds have become a bastardization of what they used to be, and some of us are excited about that. The convenience had nothing to do with any of your issues with the Vessel system VikingNail. Please stop creating fires where there aren't any.

 

Multiple guilds *shakes my head*

 

The vessel system is extremely convenient... people trying to make it out as not a convenience feature have a right to that opinion... but they also get to be called out for such opinions... 

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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This game... is not eve... the type of people that it will generally attract... are not eve players... the people that excel in this game... will not be eve players...

Wait, what?  o.O

 

Everytime I wander over for another poke at the forums, I find posts like this - one part "I'm going to have to play the game with people like that" combined with two parts "I'm going to be in an environment where I can kill people like that"...  :P

 

The people who excel in ANY game are the ones willing to learn it, trying to measure their success by any other metric is an exercise in deluding yourself.  You're going to be a lot easier to kill if you keep doing that...


Press to test...

*click*

Release to detonate...

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Wait, what?  o.O

 

Everytime I wander over for another poke at the forums, I find posts like this - one part "I'm going to have to play the game with people like that" combined with two parts "I'm going to be in an environment where I can kill people like that"...   :P

 

The people who excel in ANY game are the ones willing to learn it, trying to measure their success by any other metric is an exercise in deluding yourself.  You're going to be a lot easier to kill if you keep doing that...

Those who excel at any game are also known as "try hards" or "no lives" by casuals who don't get into the game like those who will spend a lot of time learning and playing the game. It is like training for any sport the more you train the better you get. I do like you last line too btw i laughed on the inside a bit.

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My experience with older MMOs revealed that the primary reason community declined in MMOs is improvement in gameplay.

 

In my first MMO FFXI, I had deep conversations with ppl, and spent a lot of time talking, even in active sorties.

 

The reason for this was bad gameplay. Because it was impossible to play alone, and obsurdly difficult to create an active party to accomplish anything, players spent an exorbitant amount of time waiting for stuff to happen. Even when you grouped to grind EXP, it was slow and uneventful, you could easily chat a little bit during combat, or converse during downtime.

 

When you did meet ppl, you bonded over the difficulty and accomplishment because the game was so taxing.

 

Now days, there are better games, so games that implement really painful mechanisms like that won't hold an audience. But with the more active and efficient gameplay of modern games, there's less room for socializing, the gameplay is too available and intense.

 

There are certainly other elements, but I don't think online games will ever go back to that, there are some ways to revitalize the old school MMO but the fundamental shortcomings that no one wants played a part in the experience of old MMOs and with the competition and stakes in place with MMOs nobody can pursue it.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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My experience with older MMOs revealed that the primary reason community declined in MMOs is improvement in gameplay.

 

In my first MMO FFXI, I had deep conversations with ppl, and spent a lot of time talking, even in active sorties.

 

The reason for this was bad gameplay. Because it was impossible to play alone, and obsurdly difficult to create an active party to accomplish anything, players spent an exorbitant amount of time waiting for stuff to happen. Even when you grouped to grind EXP, it was slow and uneventful, you could easily chat a little bit during combat, or converse during downtime.

 

When you did meet ppl, you bonded over the difficulty and accomplishment because the game was so taxing.

 

Now days, there are better games, so games that implement really painful mechanisms like that won't hold an audience. But with the more active and efficient gameplay of modern games, there's less room for socializing, the gameplay is too available and intense.

 

There are certainly other elements, but I don't think online games will ever go back to that, there are some ways to revitalize the old school MMO but the fundamental shortcomings that no one wants played a part in the experience of old MMOs and with the competition and stakes in place with MMOs nobody can pursue it.

The main problem is simply that players are conditioned to convenience and refuse to give it up because they don't understand how it diminishes the value of gameplay. 

 

They naturally gravitate towards things that are more convenient and easy.

 

With the evolution of technology games had the ability to become more convenient as far as polish and nice interfaces and interactive features but they couldn't stay disciplined and they made every single aspect of games convenient...

 

What i was hoping for with crowfall is that it would take good modern stuff like action combat, while keeping what made old school mmos great (lack of free information, challenging gameplay, choices having consequences etc) and blending them together for the best of both worlds... but it seems that like many other games it is starting to lean towards convenience oriented gaming (whether people realize it or not) and the end package is probably not going to be as unique as I had originally hoped. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Those who excel at any game are also known as "try hards" or "no lives" by casuals who don't get into the game like those who will spend a lot of time learning and playing the game. It is like training for any sport the more you train the better you get. I do like you last line too btw i laughed on the inside a bit.

 

Sure, it goes both ways.  However, I think the take away is that a good game will be available to more casual players but at the same time hold the interest of the more hardcore players.  You shouldn't have to live online to compete--it is a game, after all.  Passive training, which I still support despite "The Big Reveal", is one way to mitigate this.  Still, those who play a lot will generally be more successful.   


The Artist Formerly Known as Regulus

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The main problem is simply that players are conditioned to convenience and refuse to give it up because they don't understand how it diminishes the value of gameplay.

 

They naturally gravitate towards things that are more convenient and easy.

 

With the evolution of technology games had the ability to become more convenient as far as polish and nice interfaces and interactive features but they couldn't stay disciplined and they made every single aspect of games convenient...

 

What i was hoping for with crowfall is that it would take good modern stuff like action combat, while keeping what made old school mmos great (lack of free information, challenging gameplay, choices having consequences etc) and blending them together for the best of both worlds... but it seems that like many other games it is starting to lean towards convenience oriented gaming (whether people realize it or not) and the end package is probably not going to be as unique as I had originally hoped.

Ppl miss out on a lot of things because of convenience, that doesn't mean that they are undisciplined. It's convenient to drive to work rather than ride a horse, it's convenient to produce gods with machinery rather than hand crafting.

 

The qualities lost don't compare to the benefits gained, so ppl won't resort to antiquated means.

 

In FFXI, the gameplay was terrible, there's nothing disciplined about activating auto attack and standing there stationary for 30 seconds to a minute between action macros, than waiting for almost as long as the battle to recover for the next one. It's a bad game with bad gameplay and it doesn't compete against superior experiences.

 

There may be other ways to foster deep interactions lost in old MMOs, but the bad design that we didn't have alternatives for will not persist in a reality where alternatives have arisen.

 

There are plenty of other factors to negotiate, but those antiquated features belong in the grave.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Ppl miss out on a lot of things because of convenience, that doesn't mean that they are undisciplined. It's convenient to drive to work rather than ride a horse, it's convenient to produce gods with machinery rather than hand crafting.

 

The qualities lost don't compare to the benefits gained, so ppl won't resort to antiquated means.

 

In FFXI, the gameplay was terrible, there's nothing disciplined about activating auto attack and standing there stationary for 30 seconds to a minute between action macros, than waiting for almost as long as the battle to recover for the next one. It's a bad game with bad gameplay and it doesn't compete against superior experiences.

 

There may be other ways to foster deep interactions lost in old MMOs, but the bad design that we didn't have alternatives for will not persist in a reality where alternatives have arisen.

 

There are plenty of other factors to negotiate, but those antiquated features belong in the grave.

Well the problem is one man's antiquated feature is another person's old school quality feature.

 

I think the state of MMOs speaks loudly enough about how great people have been at gauging things...  Tblair himself has at times talked about cool things that simply got lost along the way.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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No, the problem is one million consumers paying dollars completely prevents one persons isolated interest from becoming a successful game. Players like to think of game design as some sort of fantasy liberated from physical restraint. It actually ties right back into the real world and limitations of supply, demand, and viability.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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No, the problem is one million consumers paying dollars completely prevents one persons isolated interest from becoming a successful game. Players like to think of game design as some sort of fantasy liberated from physical restraint. It actually ties right back into the real world and limitations of supply, demand, and viability.

It's not really about one person's interest though... it's about an entire community that used to be THE mmo playerbase being completely ignored for many many years in favor of a newer mainstream crowd. 

 

But because this community has been ignored for so long there is actually potential there for someone to appeal to those players... no they don't number the same as WoW's playerbase... but I mean old school is niche now anyway..


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Your overlooking a fundamental flaw in your arguement, most of those games still exist, and many of the players that actual enjoy it that way remain in those games. The ones that "want" the old experience but don't stick with those old games that never expired are actually chasing nostalgia for an experience they can never recreate. Even the old players are mostly looking for something new.

 

You are in fact one of those ppl, this is a game pioneering dozens of new features while "imitating" the old school qualities. Your not on WoW, even a vanilla server, or EQ, or even FFXIV. Your here looking at something new full of promises.

 

Anyway VN I don't enjoy exchanging with you, so say what you will. The enigma of MMOs is one that's lost millions or billions of dollars, there's little meaning to two ppl speculating isn't going to reveal much.


a52d4a0d-044f-44ff-8a10-ccc31bfa2d87.jpg          Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes... Than if they're upset, they'll be a mile away, and barefoot :P

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Your overlooking a fundamental flaw in your arguement, most of those games still exist, and many of the players that actual enjoy it that way remain in those games. The ones that "want" the old experience but don't stick with those old games that never expired are actually chasing nostalgia for an experience they can never recreate. Even the old players are mostly looking for something new.

 

You are in fact one of those ppl, this is a game pioneering dozens of new features while "imitating" the old school qualities. Your not on WoW, even a vanilla server, or EQ, or even FFXIV. Your here looking at something new full of promises.

 

Anyway VN I don't enjoy exchanging with you, so say what you will. The enigma of MMOs is one that's lost millions or billions of dollars, there's little meaning to two ppl speculating isn't going to reveal much.

You're overlooking a fundamental flaw in your argument... most of the playerbases for those games have long gone... UO is not as populated as it once was, EQ1 is a fraction of what it once was, AC is running on fumes etc...

 

I'm looking for a good marriage between what made games great and challenging, with modern technological advances... those games were not perfect, but they gave people something that modern games fail to.

 

There's really no enigma though... there is only intent... The WoW enigma was cracked long ago... many of us saw all the clones, identified the flaws with each one... and have waited for a good one... we see the development of projects with potential... whether it's darkfall and it's terribly long development process or swtor or rift or warhammer online or gw2 etc etc... when those dealbreaking flaws don't get addressed we move on to the next project with potential.  One of the reoccurring themes is that companies do not stay disciplined to their vision... they slowly start tossing in convenience just because their eyes get a little bigger and they think they have a clever way to slice into the mainstream playerbase... then a few small features turn into big ones and then next thing you know you have another convenience oriented game.

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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