Jump to content
Search In
  • More options...
Find results that contain...
Find results in...
IamMe

Crowfall Isnt HARDCORE And Here is Why

Recommended Posts

I know click baity title but I think the cause verifies the measure or however the saying goes because it hurts me everytime when a game like Crowfall gets treated binary like that.

 

Of course I could just leave this here but I think a Too Long Didnt Watch and context wouldn't hurt (although you should really check it out)

I write that at 7 am and I am not a native english speaker so please bear with me. 

 

Over the entire public lifespan Crowfall had so far, and even more so since the Crows & Vessel reveal, you've seen threads that are apparently either very ignorant or uninformed with headline like:

"How to make Ek's matter although I don't care."

"Ek's don't matter, I don't care let's remove them"

"I am a veteran but not capable of competetive PvP because I am old"

"The game gets washed down and is not HARDCORE enough"

 

I am certainly not the most active user in the forums but from what I've seen and heard those responces arent infrequent. 

 

We need to stop that.

 

What most of these thread's try to achieve is punishing gameplay. Not HARDCORE, not difficult, punishing. It is not fun to get hard locked into a mistake you made because you are new to the game and wanted to try something (although this game is not for beginners goes without saying sadly I have to). A punishing game doesnt sell; a hostile community isnt pleasent to stay in. If our community really wants to go this route Crowfall will die.

 

Now the people that love to hate hungry hippos which infuriates me everytime when I read this because they are pretty blatent about having no clue. I myself never got a high technical skill in fighting games (my clumsy keyboard hands just arent fast enough for a proper parry or Perfect Pivot that's why I play MMO's) but I watch (arguably) the most technical fighting game out there (Super Smash Bros Melee) with a passion.

 

To be honest "it isnt about reflexes, not really" (taking that example because it is the most frequent and most ridicolous). The technical skill I talked about is easier to archieve than you might think because it is just stubborn pratice, practice, practice.

 

If you've never seen deeper into the mechanics don't talk like you did, neither you should crucify it.

 

But I have faith that ACE is able to create a deep and capable game which, with proper support by the right community, can last decades like Everquest, Ultima Online or Shadowbane did.

We need to be this community.


 

I AM ME!
I love you all.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If dying isn't scary (punishing), then fighting isn't nearly as exciting.  Punishing gameplay, I find, builds *stronger* groups of players, because they ultimately need each other to achieve their goals.    If you don't need other people, you get horrific toxicity, from what I've seen. Not that some people aren't just dirt bags, but if they need your help, they aren't going to treat you like completely poorly made socks.  

 

I agree that people should at least post reasonable arguments, but I don't see anything wrong with the right level of pain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If dying isn't scary (punishing), then fighting isn't nearly as exciting.  Punishing gameplay, I find, builds *stronger* groups of players, because they ultimately need each other to achieve their goals.    If you don't need other people, you get horrific toxicity, from what I've seen. Not that some people aren't just dirt bags, but if they need your help, they aren't going to treat you like completely poorly made socks.  

 

I agree that people should at least post reasonable arguments, but I don't see anything wrong with the right level of pain. I agree.

 

I think in many cases there is a fine line between difficult and punishing. In some cases it comes out as something that should really stay within the Shadows or Dreggs (where I will likely be) that people advocate for all rings (such as restrictions, systems such as full vessel looting seen in the inner rings, etc). There is a reason each ring is progressively harder and follows risk versus reward, but sometimes people think one thing should be universal (or removed completely) when it has a purpose and reason it exists and is where it is even if they don't intend to use it or see its purpose. Obviously make choices matter. Make it difficult. I'm curious, what is your definition of punishing versus difficult is?

 

As for the community, I have often seen it divided and try to stay out of as much drama as possible. I admit a few things ruffle my feathers and I want to defend myself or the game in some way, but I try to do so with logic and reason and look things up to be informed about it, which I can say some do, but others on both sides of the spectrum do not. At some point draw the line, deal with it and let it go. The community is a huge aspect of this game and though some hold very extreme positions, I have seen enough to keep from worrying the community will fall apart. Some places will be difficult, but the people I know or see often on here have a good head on their shoulders.

 

I'd be game for many different kinds of challenges, but they need to stay in areas where you understand and accept the risk for the potential reward.

 

Edit: noticed my question for a definition was vague as to who it was directed to. Meant for OP, but I'd be interested in seeing other's opinions if you want to share.

Edited by FrostSword

nz8Y2JJ.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.. Not that some people aren't just dirt bags..

Hey! Who you callin a dirtbag?

 

I agree with yamix though, we need to have consequences and dying needs to be painful. On the other side, if i die i dont want to have to go do a bunch of mindless grunt work just to be able to compete again. This is where the game isn't fun and it's a fine line to make equipment/dying be consequential but not be a huge chore. I am confident (from listening to interviews and seeing how they think about their decisions) that ACE will come up with a good system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hardcore should have Consequences..... Too hardcore and it feels like Punishment... And there is one thing we all know in a game like this... you will die at some point.

 

That is the tricky part in developing a game with a system like this. Dying needs to be impactful to the overall gameplay, but if it too strictly punished the player, then the player will no longer play because it becomes a chore. Very few people are masochistic enough to enjoy getting punished every time they die. Very few people are good enough not to die.

 

Many of the people crying for hardcore or neither masochistic and enjoy the punishment of death or that good they will never die.

 

In the same token, if death has no meaning, then the game loses depth. For example, if a group attacks a stronghold and is able to siege it endlessly with impunity to death, then the combat loses meaning because if say in the first wave, the defenders or attackers makes solid progress, that can easily be lost as the opposing group is able to zerg back any ground that was taken.

 

In battles like this, if the first wave is repelled, the losing group should have to re-group and give it another go rather than have an endless wave of bodies to throw at the enemy.

 

That said, if a group continues to get it's ass handed to them, AND dying has it's own set of harsh reality, then the group loses interest and the game starts to whiter.

 

This is going to be a tricky mechanic for ACE to get right

Edited by Kell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure what your point is.

 

Crowfall's core (inner rulesets) is "hardcore" compared to old and new MMOs, and it exists thanks to outer and easier rulesets income.

It's normal for people that are planning to play on the inner rulesets to be more in favor of "hardcore" mechanics, but they rarely have anything to do with easier rulesets.


y9tj8G5.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some punishing is necessary to separate the skilled and determined from the mundane, that is what creates a hardcore environment. So I don't know what your point really is, OP. Obviously (we all and ACE know this) that the punishing mechanics have to be balanced (as anything in the game has to be balanced) so they don't go overboard and just generate frustration, alienating even the most hardcore, essentially making a boring game. So by saying this game shouldn't be overly punishing you are not saying anythingwe don't already know. But clearly, some punishing rule sets and campaigns are certainly welcome and are confirmed to be put in this game.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about the EK threads, a lot of them were born due to misunderstandings and the lack of info on specific mechanics ACE is yet to reveal. People who made stupid threads were told so in the threads themselves, threads that eventually turned into a circular troll bandwagon. If people wanna make those threads asking pointless questions just to get trolled or have no answer in the end let them do it, I don't think trying to raise their concience with a thread like this one really accomplishes anything. Of course, you are also free to make it, just wanted to point out that it won't change much.

Edited by LGAllastair

KjUVOZg.png


Guild Leader/ High Elder

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've seen that line between difficult and punishing become more and more forgiving over the years...

 

There's nothing punishing about being able to play any archetype in a campaign, while campaigns themselves are temporary, with what is currently a forgiving combat system where actual precision aim isn't required.

 

The entire package right now doesn't even approach difficult...

 

I personally think the new vessel system was too much... it puts them firmly in the overwatch/moba type user experience instead of the super committed old school mmorpg type user experience.

 

But I mean they can still do other things like tighten up the combat system so it isn't so easy to hit targets etc ...

Edited by VIKINGNAIL

Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Without challenge and loss, accomplishment and victory have no meaning. In a PVP game we especially need loss and consequences. Out decisions need to matter. "Safe" areas need to "feel" unsafe. Without these things a PVP MMO will feel like any other FPS and it will have a life span that matches. 


I role play a wordsmith.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've seen that line between difficult and punishing become more and more forgiving over the years...

 

There's nothing punishing about being able to play any archetype in a campaign, while campaigns themselves are temporary, with what is currently a forgiving combat system where actual precision aim isn't required.

 

The entire package right now doesn't even approach difficult...

 

I personally think the new vessel system was too much... it puts them firmly in the overwatch/moba type user experience instead of the super committed old school mmorpg type user experience.

 

But I mean they can still do other things like tighten up the combat system so it

isn't so easy to hit targets etc ...

I really don't see players being able to play any given archetype in a campaign until much later down the road (years away). I guess it all comes down to how fast archetype skills train, especially the promotion class trees. Though I still don't see anyone being super good at playing all the classes, mechanically and play style wise, I think people will tend to have anywhere from 3 to 5 archetypes that they are comfortable with.

 

Personally I like the vessel system and think it will make some very interesting builds come out quicker and at less pointless time consumed training basic skills evrry time. Plus it's more stuff to loot! More lewt = more nerd rage... I mean player driven experiences!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've seen that line between difficult and punishing become more and more forgiving over the years...

 

There's nothing punishing about being able to play any archetype in a campaign, while campaigns themselves are temporary, with what is currently a forgiving combat system where actual precision aim isn't required.

 

The entire package right now doesn't even approach difficult...

 

I personally think the new vessel system was too much... it puts them firmly in the overwatch/moba type user experience instead of the super committed old school mmorpg type user experience.

 

But I mean they can still do other things like tighten up the combat system so it isn't so easy to hit targets etc ...

 

I've been thinking about this ever since the EK concept. CF first attracted former SB, EVE and DF players like myself. We came here to get a "hardcore" pvp experience. But with systems continuing to erode it looks a lot less hardcore than other PVP games in development. EKs are completely safe, any time you want to completely escape from PVP you just jump in an EK, thats not very hardcore. In EVE nowhere is every truly safe. Not with the avatar switch campaign hopping looks like a reality. Consequences seemingly matter less. Loss will certainly matter less as it will be like losing armor instead of yourself, and even the "choices" we make are less consequential. 

 

From the star CF has had trouble defining itself, JTodd said as much. No on seems to really be able to define what EVE plus GOT plus Thone War Sim is and I think what we are seeing is an organic development. CF is so broad it cant get be easilly defined so we all bring our own definitions to it. As the game develops it shifts, changes and grows. Eventually we will be able to define what it has become, and when that entity doesnt match the ones we came up with in our heads some of us will feel brtrayed or disappointed. I've seen this with a few KS games now. It seems to be part of the process, but it seems especially prolific with CF because of the variety among the fans. What stated as hardcore PVPers attracted a whole other, and very opposite crowd with EKs and again with Action/MOBA fans. 

 

Maybe Crowfalls greatest shortcoming is that it has so much promise, but those promises are interpreted differently for every niche of gamer it attracts and in the end, no game (not even Star Citizen lol) can please all of those different crowds.

 

I don't fault anyone, not the gamers nor ACE. I've begun to see it as part of the process a KS game must go through when it transitions from concepts on paper to the reality and confinements of a real game. All each of us can do is hope when the dust settles what CF becomes has enough of what attracted us to it to make it worth investing more of our time into.  We'll see, waiting is all we can do. Waiting is maddening!


I role play a wordsmith.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really don't see players being able to play any given archetype in a campaign until much later down the road (years away). I guess it all comes down to how fast archetype skills train, especially the promotion class trees. Though I still don't see anyone being super good at playing all the classes, mechanically and play style wise, I think people will tend to have anywhere from 3 to 5 archetypes that they are comfortable with.

 

Personally I like the vessel system and think it will make some very interesting builds come out quicker and at less pointless time consumed training basic skills evrry time. Plus it's more stuff to loot! More lewt = more nerd rage... I mean player driven experiences!

Yep this. plus I mean just because one has the ability to jump into a different archetype vessel doesn't mean they will be very proficient at it, either progression wise or player skill wise and a mix of both. Its also an item so its not really safe or viable to carry around a bunch of vessels.

 

Anyways not really sure what the point of the thread even is, I read the OP a few times and don't really see a point beyond complaining that posters made dumb threads?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I like the vessel system and think it will make some very interesting builds come out quicker and at less pointless time consumed training basic skills evrry time. Plus it's more stuff to loot! More lewt = more nerd rage... I mean player driven experiences!

 

Unfortunately from where I come from in my love of MMOs what you described is what I'm having trouble with in modern games. Quicker, easier, less meaning, less consequence. Choices are forgiven. Try it all, its quick and easy. In my experience quick and easy makes it just as quick and easy to forget and move along. As original Everquest players how easy it was to leave their original high level characters hehe. Times change, people don't, I might just be coming to an age where I no longer understand popular culture as much as I did when I was a youngling. What can I say, old people, we like things to be hard so we have something to complain about, but you better not make it easy or we will be offended you think we aren't up to the challenge lol. 


I role play a wordsmith.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One more thing I forgot to mention in regards to the OP. Once they enable FF the state of the game and combat "difficulty" and "hardcoreness" will increase. To me it looks like CF is showing off its "mainstream parts" first but as development continues we will start to see the more unforgiving gameplay mechanics and philosophies emerge. Which makes sense when you think about it. Right now they are testing the bones of the game and don't want the user experience to be unnecessarily negative.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I personally think the new vessel system was too much... it puts them firmly in the overwatch/moba type user experience instead of the super committed old school mmorpg type user experience.

 

 

That is not true.

 

When you enter in a MOBA match, each character you choose, you are playing with the character with its top potential, doesn't matter if you played him 1000 times before or just 1, you have the same options, all depend on your skill with him and in your knowledge of the game (items builds, how to play its role, etc). And that is one of the main purposes of the MOBA experience, to be equal in power to your enemy.

 

Now, the vessel system just give you the opportunity to jump into another class, but, if you didn't spend any points in that class you will not be able to play that class at its full potential, you will be limited, you need to use skill points on the class, not only that, but the vessel can be upgraded, you need to spend time upgrading that vessel, making a "bond" both for the vessel, the archetype and the player

 

So yeah, if you have fully maxed all archetypes skills, you will be able to play this game almost as a MOBA, only the vessel quality will still be a limitation for you, but since you won't be able to do this, the MOBA idea is out of the picture.

 

The good thing is that if you are leveling X archetype skills and you don't like it, you can stop and try another one, it will slow your progress, but you have the chance to change, it is almost as making a new character but without leveling all type of skills from 0, just the archetype ones.

 

Maybe it is not the same as old school MMORPGs, but it is nothing like a MOBA, you still have only one crow, if you want to go for combat, you won't be able to go for crafter type skills or explorer, you need to choose, like an old school MMORPG, if you are not VIP, you still are limited to upgrading one archetype at the same time, so you will probably prefer to level just one, like you would do in a old-school MMORPG, if you are VIP, well, good for you, you can decide what archetype you want to play out of 3, maybe you will be able to easily change vessels, maybe you need to die, maybe you need to go to X place, or maybe you can change it in the middle of the battlefield (I hope this one never happens), we still don't know.

 

It doesn't seem at all to me like that "put Crowfall firmly in the overwatch/moba type user experience".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately from where I come from in my love of MMOs what you described is what I'm having trouble with in modern games. Quicker, easier, less meaning, less consequence. Choices are forgiven. Try it all, its quick and easy. In my experience quick and easy makes it just as quick and easy to forget and move along. As original Everquest players how easy it was to leave their original high level characters hehe. Times change, people don't, I might just be coming to an age where I no longer understand popular culture as much as I did when I was a youngling. What can I say, old people, we like things to be hard so we have something to complain about, but you better not make it easy or we will be offended you think we aren't up to the challenge lol.

 

Well that's the spec junky in me, I'll be making and trying a million specs regardless of how long it takes. I like to play something different, when i fight people i want them to be like what the hell was that guy just doing (and I'd like it to work.. most of the time it doesn't). Games that force hard character advancement through time sinks just enforce cookie cutter specs harder imo. Plus i got kids and life to deal with now, cant be spending all my time training bulsocks time sink skills.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really don't see players being able to play any given archetype in a campaign until much later down the road (years away). I guess it all comes down to how fast archetype skills train, especially the promotion class trees. Though I still don't see anyone being super good at playing all the classes, mechanically and play style wise, I think people will tend to have anywhere from 3 to 5 archetypes that they are comfortable with.

 

Personally I like the vessel system and think it will make some very interesting builds come out quicker and at less pointless time consumed training basic skills evrry time. Plus it's more stuff to loot! More lewt = more nerd rage... I mean player driven experiences!

Well as we know there are in fact gamers out there that can master tons of diff characters with diff playstyles and mechanics, we see it in mobas all of the time, and the mechanical skill required in a moba is much higher than this kind of action rpg.  Also there is this thing that happens as you master more characters where as you master more you only get faster at mastering more...

 

I've been thinking about this ever since the EK concept. CF first attracted former SB, EVE and DF players like myself. We came here to get a "hardcore" pvp experience. But with systems continuing to erode it looks a lot less hardcore than other PVP games in development. EKs are completely safe, any time you want to completely escape from PVP you just jump in an EK, thats not very hardcore. In EVE nowhere is every truly safe. Not with the avatar switch campaign hopping looks like a reality. Consequences seemingly matter less. Loss will certainly matter less as it will be like losing armor instead of yourself, and even the "choices" we make are less consequential. 

 

From the star CF has had trouble defining itself, JTodd said as much. No on seems to really be able to define what EVE plus GOT plus Thone War Sim is and I think what we are seeing is an organic development. CF is so broad it cant get be easilly defined so we all bring our own definitions to it. As the game develops it shifts, changes and grows. Eventually we will be able to define what it has become, and when that entity doesnt match the ones we came up with in our heads some of us will feel brtrayed or disappointed. I've seen this with a few KS games now. It seems to be part of the process, but it seems especially prolific with CF because of the variety among the fans. What stated as hardcore PVPers attracted a whole other, and very opposite crowd with EKs and again with Action/MOBA fans. 

 

Maybe Crowfalls greatest shortcoming is that it has so much promise, but those promises are interpreted differently for every niche of gamer it attracts and in the end, no game (not even Star Citizen lol) can please all of those different crowds.

 

I don't fault anyone, not the gamers nor ACE. I've begun to see it as part of the process a KS game must go through when it transitions from concepts on paper to the reality and confinements of a real game. All each of us can do is hope when the dust settles what CF becomes has enough of what attracted us to it to make it worth investing more of our time into.  We'll see, waiting is all we can do. Waiting is maddening!

I didn't mind the temporary campaign idea at first because I thought they would still deliver a hardcore experience around it... but so far it seems like they are going the opposite direction and the complete package simply won't compare to the punishment and challenge of the older mmorpgs, while the actual real-time gameplay experience will be more enjoyable because of the action combat and modern improvements. 

 

I don't really fault ACE for the decisions they make... though I do think that some decisions leave backers understandably frustrated... I said in the big reveal thread that the changes won't make me not play crowfall... they'll just make me play it for a different reason since it's going to be a different game that scratches a different itch.


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hardcore has so many definitions that it loses meaning on this forum.

To me, hardcore means demeaning ERP games with cheesecake avatars running around. I don't want that (maybe sometimes I'm tempted).

 

I just want a game that's fun for both players with lots of time to play and players with only a few hours a week to play, so long as they make friends.

I want game combat that's easy to learn and difficult to master, accommodating many levels of player talent with corresponding returns.

 

I want a community that is open to input from the nubs, guildmasters, trolls, gimps and old fogies. 

All of them enrich the experience in player-driven content.


I think the K-Mart of MMO's already exists!  And it ain't us!   :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hardcore has so many definitions that it loses meaning on this forum.

To me, hardcore means demeaning ERP games with cheesecake avatars running around. I don't want that (maybe sometimes I'm tempted).

 

I just want a game that's fun for both players with lots of time to play and players with only a few hours a week to play, so long as they make friends.

I want game combat that's easy to learn and difficult to master, accommodating many levels of player talent with corresponding returns.

 

I want a community that is open to input from the nubs, guildmasters, trolls, gimps and old fogies. 

All of them enrich the experience in player-driven content.

Simply put, well put.

 

I myself don't see that big of a change in CF at it's core with the announced change. It is different, but the game will still be close enough to what they sold us at KS.

 

Like others, I don't have time to be hardcore anyways... Family+Job do not equal Hardcore gamer.

 

If I can have a gaming experience that fits into my gaming schedule and is enjoyable, offers something for both casual and hardcore gamers to the mutual beneficial enjoyment of both parties (assuming there is some give and take from both parties) then that is a win for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good points. Hardcore to me does not mean time sink or plays a lot.

 

It means choices matter. It means decisions have consequences. It means things are challenging. It also means a lack of "safety". Hardcore isn't "hard" so much as an environment that is challenging and meaningful because of my actions and even the actions of the people I face. 

Edited by tierless

I role play a wordsmith.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...