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IamMe

Crowfall Isnt HARDCORE And Here is Why

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In competitive pvp games the rest do care... they just may not understand how they are caring.  They will try to learn from the top players, or learn from things passed down from top to bottom. 

 

Maybe the worst newb ever may not have heard of uber_god_player_01... but uber_god_player_01's tactics may trickle down and eventually hit worst newb ever's player circle. 

 

You always feel challenged right?  That's because the top players are creating tiers of play... that means that whatever tier you may be at... you are always playing, trying to improve, overcome the obstacles put before you... and the reason you get to always be challenged is that even when you improve and overcome one challenge, there is a next step...

 

Without really good players there aren't many steps... and people stop feeling challenged much more quickly.

 

I don't disagree that tiers of players keep things going, but I don't care about being the best or top .1-5% as it has no value to me.

 

Games are a hobby and entertainment to me, not my career or purpose for living. If I lose, I'll survive.

 

Was responding to your comment that the top 5% don't get excited about matches that don't mean much.

 

Which I imagine is the majority of the time, unless beating others of less skill means something and makes your comments pretty pointless as all matches would mean something and they'd always care.

 

CF is not an eSport game and the level of player you seem to talk about be it yourself or this conceptual group out in gamer land aren't going to find a constant challenge in CWs with hundreds/thousands of players running around. A super duper leet team might be able to win fights, but if end game CW revolve around siege and large scale fights, highly unlikely there will be 100 vs 100 or whatever of the top .1% of players.

 

There is a reason MOBA/FPS and what not are 1-5 team sizes in most cases. Even 10 is pushing it in some games.

 

Toss in 500 players in an area, those top .1% aren't going to matter unless the game is balanced towards individual > whole, which I don't see happening in CF.

 

Your entire viewpoint seems to stem from a "fair" arena/instanced small scale setup.

 

Not sure how you think ACE or any company could build with folks that excel at that type of design in a game very different.

 

If individual skill means more than group strategy/tactics/numbers, CF has no future. Now if you have both, it's a wash and victory is at hand, but the .1% super army is going to be playing for no reason if running over peons means nothing to them.

 

Not to say they couldn't have CW/rules that cater to smaller skilled players/groups, but if they can still outmatch a group 5x their size, there will be a larger issue as you'd have .1% players running around crushing the dreams of small guilds and what not with their pew pew ability.

 

Longevity wise, they have to go after the 95% if they want to make an eSport, not so much. H1Z1 is somewhat of an example of tossing out the longevity view and going for short term cash/entertainment, at least from what I've seen.

 

ACE could say screw it and have Hunger Dome be the #1 ruleset and build out from there. Only way I see your dreams of top 5% players finding CF worth playing unless they don't mind not caring about the majority of their time in-game.

Edited by APE

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I don't disagree that tiers of players keep things going, but I don't care about being the best or top .1-5% as it has no value to me.

 

That's fine but they will still influence your gaming experience in ways you may not have considered...

 

Games are a hobby and entertainment to me, not my career or purpose for living. If I lose, I'll survive.

 

Sports are a hobby to many, they still try to compete.

 

Was responding to your comment that the top 5% don't get excited about matches that don't mean much.

 

Which I imagine is the majority of the time, unless beating others of less skill means something and makes your comments pretty pointless as all matches would mean something and they'd always care.

 

CF is not an eSport game and the level of player you seem to talk about be it yourself or this conceptual group out in gamer land aren't going to find a constant challenge in CWs with hundreds/thousands of players running around. A super duper leet team might be able to win fights, but if end game CW revolve around siege and large scale fights, highly unlikely there will be 100 vs 100 or whatever of the top .1% of players.

 

CF is not an esport but it is a pvp game...

 

There is a reason MOBA/FPS and what not are 1-5 team sizes in most cases. Even 10 is pushing it in some games.

 

Toss in 500 players in an area, those top .1% aren't going to matter unless the game is unbalanced towards individual > whole, which I don't see happening in CF.

 

Likewise the game fails if it's simply about numbers...

 

Your entire viewpoint seems to stem from a "fair" arena/instanced small scale setup.

 

Nope it stems from a general pvp perspective...

 

Not sure how you think ACE or any company should build with folks that excel at that type of design in a game very different.

 

If individual skill means more than group strategy/tactics/numbers, CF has no future. Now if you have both, it's a wash and victory is at hand, but the .1% super army is going to be playing for no reason if running over peons means nothing to them.

 

Skill knows skill... skilled players will indeed group up and use group strategy and tactics... if numbers are the defining element in winning in crowfall the game will not survive for very long. 

 

Running over peons may mean nothing... but creating a feeder system where new challengers can arise and try to take them down may mean something. 


Skeggold, Skalmold, Skildir ro Klofnir

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Running over peons may mean nothing... but creating a feeder system where new challengers can arise and try to take them down may mean something. 

 

So all matches matter as the feeder is constant or there are times when the "good" don't get excited as matches don't mean much?

 

While I'd like to see a game that rewards both individual/small scale to the large scale numbers, I have to assume that one or both will always have issues unless both are catered to separately.

 

Without artificial limitations in place, not sure how 20 > 200 in a fantasy game such as this where there aren't headshots or whatever instantly removing the numbers advantage. Not accounting for OP CC and what not.

 

As I said in my edits as you were typing, they can cater to different size/skill levels with the open design of the CWs, but without limitations put in place, won't work.

 

Which is what I find hopeful for CF. They can do pretty much whatever they/we want to a point.

 

Have smaller Hunger Dome like CWs where the top .1% can compete and then large scale CWs where the 95% can throw numbers at each other. Maybe a good middle ground in there as well for the 4.9% left? 

 

They are trying to blend what have typically been very different designs and it may or may not work depending on their execution and our enjoyment.

 

Much like FF, they can either design with it in mind and we'll figure it out or from the start and go from there with it mattering sometimes and others not at all depending on the CW.

 

A game hyping itself as a Throne War doesn't seem to concerned with the individual and nothing shown so far on paper or testing shows me otherwise.

 

Maybe it's just my lack of virtual ego, but group/team/guild achievements mean more than individual in games like this. I don't want to be at the bottom for sure, but I'm not worried about being able to 1v1 or 1v20 in your case.

 

The higher the individual ceiling, the less enjoyable it most likely will be for the majority. If they can find a middle ground, great, but if not, they'll need to build around either the smaller scale or larger when it comes to the CWs they've detailed so far.

 

Regardless, the combat needs to be fixed first lol

Edited by APE

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There are TWO huge reasons for me to have hardcore rulesets in play 1) To make play "dangerous" adding real emotion and adrenaline to encounters, situations and decision making and emotional rewards for survival.  2) To discourage Gold farmers from ever making inroads with bot accounts  (We players will farm the bots or any afk macro'ers and take the loots)  

 

The one reason we get resistance from the large casual player base to joining hardcore ruleset games is often blamed on players not being able to handle #1 (the emotions of losing stuff) and we often call out this as being a carebear laziness or even a dislike for player confrontation and PvP...   the fact is that a majority of gamers that provide the real cashflow in mmos just cannot handle the stress and the learning curves to compete in sandbox PvP without some way to balance out our hardcore needs and their enjoyment of our sandbox.  I think Artcraft is trying to give us a bigger player base with the EKs and outer ring campaigns while we get to inhabit the much more harsh and rewarding dregs.  We who salute each death and loss of loots to rivals in fact need the feeble masses to buy the game so we get updates and give us an in game economy worth fighting over.   Our devs are catering to us both and that has yet to be successful on the scale we wish but I can see the crowfall design heading in the right direction.   

 

The largest hope I set for this game is that PvP is not or never balanced for 1v1...  that NEVER works and is always the saddest result of class specific whining.  In the harsh realities of a massive PvP campaign Rule #1 is never go out your door alone, you need to team up for protection and skill synergy...   a game like Crowfall is not about the individual epeen with epic gear but the well rounded group with synergy and tactics in 10 man groups or larger.  The guilds that develop strategies and build crafting around having the right mix of melee, support, and range dps will win the day every time regardless of vessel, weapon, and armor quality.  If you can create an element of surprise, properly focus fire and call targets, have intel on your enemy, sneek in assassins to take out support and wipe the enemy out, that is endgame in a sandbox...  with good play and tactics the rewards for winning encounters and holding strategic locations come passively at campaigns end... 

Edited by Frykka

6FUI4Mk.jpg

                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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I don't disagree that tiers of players keep things going, but I don't care about being the best or top .1-5% as it has no value to me.

 

Games are a hobby and entertainment to me, not my career or purpose for living. If I lose, I'll survive.

 

Was responding to your comment that the top 5% don't get excited about matches that don't mean much.

 

Which I imagine is the majority of the time, unless beating others of less skill means something and makes your comments pretty pointless as all matches would mean something and they'd always care.

 

CF is not an eSport game and the level of player you seem to talk about be it yourself or this conceptual group out in gamer land aren't going to find a constant challenge in CWs with hundreds/thousands of players running around. A super duper leet team might be able to win fights, but if end game CW revolve around siege and large scale fights, highly unlikely there will be 100 vs 100 or whatever of the top .1% of players.

 

There is a reason MOBA/FPS and what not are 1-5 team sizes in most cases. Even 10 is pushing it in some games.

 

Toss in 500 players in an area, those top .1% aren't going to matter unless the game is balanced towards individual > whole, which I don't see happening in CF.

 

Your entire viewpoint seems to stem from a "fair" arena/instanced small scale setup.

 

Not sure how you think ACE or any company could build with folks that excel at that type of design in a game very different.

 

If individual skill means more than group strategy/tactics/numbers, CF has no future. Now if you have both, it's a wash and victory is at hand, but the .1% super army is going to be playing for no reason if running over peons means nothing to them.

 

Not to say they couldn't have CW/rules that cater to smaller skilled players/groups, but if they can still outmatch a group 5x their size, there will be a larger issue as you'd have .1% players running around crushing the dreams of small guilds and what not with their pew pew ability.

 

Longevity wise, they have to go after the 95% if they want to make an eSport, not so much. H1Z1 is somewhat of an example of tossing out the longevity view and going for short term cash/entertainment, at least from what I've seen.

 

ACE could say screw it and have Hunger Dome be the #1 ruleset and build out from there. Only way I see your dreams of top 5% players finding CF worth playing unless they don't mind not caring about the majority of their time in-game.

As always we want to find that funnest middle ground between the 1v1 and the zerging masses.  Small scale 1v1 can never be balanced when you base your combat on synergy of cross archetype skills...  i.e. in SB we had one toon debuffing a type of resistance for the dps to get huge damage boosts...  but the usual option is to disengage and run...  I have heard complaints about the ability to just run away but I think that is a good thing... running away to preserve your vessel and bag o loots is valid tactics as a stealth scout that has been caught.   If you don't have a friendly group around for protection then stealth and speed can still give you exciting play (late night or low pop play although we hope to never see low pop).  Fact is that my support vessel build will never go out solo, nor should a slow lumbering tank...  there is just no way for this team play oriented archetype to survive solo in a hardcore PvP world.  On the other end we all dread the great CN or OT sized lagtocrush zerg.  I think that the embargo rules should limit #s of each guild to some set value for a campaign, keep things a little more small scale... talking like 50 max but not sure how that could work or if I really want that.

 

What is it we want to be THE endgame...  for me neither the gear race or some cluttered player housing means anything.  Is this not a Throne war after all?  At the end we want some fame, some fortune, and some elevated status amongst our peers in a well played and well fought campaign...  a crown won for our selected leader, awards fairly distributed for those making this happen, and some little bragging rights for a few days...  then the CW resets, we forget our past glory and we start again with changed landscape, changed objectives, some new resources and loots to make crafters delight in creating new shiney things for us to wear out, break, and destroy.

Edited by Frykka

6FUI4Mk.jpg

                                                        Sugoi - Senpai

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I have noticed that there is a type of division in the posted opinions on the forums. Primarily between the 'Hardcore' players and those wanting both good PVP play but easier conditions for that play (including PVE and 'Thrones' style inter-EK activities). Now what I have seen is that there are both play  styles being developed in the game design (Rings of PVP difficulty). Easier on the outside and harder in the inside. However I have noticed that the 'Hardcore' players are intensive, vociferous and sometimes toxic toward the other play styles, up to and including the complete design for unrestricted PVP everywhere to elimination of an 'easy or different' rings completely. The 'Easier' crowd makes their desires know but usually only defend themselves from 'verbal' attacks that can get quite personal. Little or no 'attacks' on those wanting more or greater hardcore play. Anyway, the differences are there as are the types of posts and I have noticed them here (and on other game forums).

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I've been thinking about this ever since the EK concept. CF first attracted former SB, EVE and DF players like myself. We came here to get a "hardcore" pvp experience. But with systems continuing to erode it looks a lot less hardcore than other PVP games in development. EKs are completely safe, any time you want to completely escape from PVP you just jump in an EK, thats not very hardcore. In EVE nowhere is every truly safe. Not with the avatar switch campaign hopping looks like a reality. Consequences seemingly matter less. Loss will certainly matter less as it will be like losing armor instead of yourself, and even the "choices" we make are less consequential. 

 

This is the whole point of the design though. With the separate campaigns and rings ACE designed the game from the ground up to let them appeal to ultra tryhard PvP fanatics and carebears RvR fans. It shouldn't be a suprise at all that the EK is a safe zone, thats the purpose. You can't escape consequences by heading there though, while you're not defending your stuff someone else will be taking it. Its no more relevant to the equation than claiming a log out button makes the game not hardcore enough.


David Sirlin's Balancing Multiplayer Games should be mandatory reading for all gamers.

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Why not create a scouting system? The larger the mass of players they easier they are to scout, while the inverse is true. That way small groups of players with "scouting skills" can easily avoid zegs making zegs a bad choice for player hunting. This will force zergs to mostly be for big targets and other zergs, as it should be.

 

Likewise, because they are in fact so difficult to detect, small groups can hunt other small groups and act as scouts and skirmish teams to track and whittle down a zerg. This gives further meaning and purpose to both group sizes in the big picture, prevents zergs from automatically being superior, and in my opinion goes a long way towards balance and, less importantly, realism.


Wearily do I sleep eternity away.

Without fear or haste, on bedding made of solitude and silence.

 

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The one reason we get resistance from the large casual player base to joining hardcore ruleset games is often blamed on players not being able to handle #1 (the emotions of losing stuff) and we often call out this as being a carebear laziness or even a dislike for player confrontation and PvP...   the fact is that a majority of gamers that provide the real cashflow in mmos just cannot handle the stress and the learning curves to compete in sandbox PvP without some way to balance out our hardcore needs and their enjoyment of our sandbox.  I think Artcraft is trying to give us a bigger player base with the EKs and outer ring campaigns while we get to inhabit the much more harsh and rewarding dregs.  We who salute each death and loss of loots to rivals in fact need the feeble masses to buy the game so we get updates and give us an in game economy worth fighting over.   Our devs are catering to us both and that has yet to be successful on the scale we wish but I can see the crowfall design heading in the right direction.   

 

I think this is one of the most sensible posts that I have seen on the forums lately. Props to you Frykka.

 

The one thing that I will add to this is the hope that as new players come into the fold and start to feel out the system they will want to get deeper into the rings. Rookie decides to jump into God's Reach as there is theoretically more protection there, but after a campaign or two, Rookie is now a Squaddie with a few battles under his/her belt and wants to up the ante in the Infected.  After that Squaddie is now a Sergeant. At this point connections have been made, Sergeant may have been running with a guild for a bit, and it's now time to put the guild's honor on the line in the Shadow. After that, we may eventually see the former Newbie now hammering it out in the Dregs with the best of us.

 

As veterans of these games we do have to remember too that we may like some Hardcore Parkor rulesets (and I would imagine the deeper you go in the rings, there will be different and more hardcore rulesets) however, to throw the fat sheep to the pack of starving wolves right away will not go well for the community and the game in the long run. Let the sheep start from the beginning and learn to be wolves.


"Through the travail of ages, midst the pomp and toils of war, have I fought and strove and perished, countless times among the stars.
As if through a glass and darkly, the age old strife I see, when I fought in many guises and many names, but always me."

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I think this is one of the most sensible posts that I have seen on the forums lately. Props to you Frykka.

 

The one thing that I will add to this is the hope that as new players come into the fold and start to feel out the system they will want to get deeper into the rings. Rookie decides to jump into God's Reach as there is theoretically more protection there, but after a campaign or two, Rookie is now a Squaddie with a few battles under his/her belt and wants to up the ante in the Infected.  After that Squaddie is now a Sergeant. At this point connections have been made, Sergeant may have been running with a guild for a bit, and it's now time to put the guild's honor on the line in the Shadow. After that, we may eventually see the former Newbie now hammering it out in the Dregs with the best of us.

 

As veterans of these games we do have to remember too that we may like some Hardcore Parkor rulesets (and I would imagine the deeper you go in the rings, there will be different and more hardcore rulesets) however, to throw the fat sheep to the pack of starving wolves right away will not go well for the community and the game in the long run. Let the sheep start from the beginning and learn to be wolves.

 

 

Not to mention hardcore pvp can be fatiguing. It's nice to have a ruleset to relax in while waiting for your retinue to show up.


Wearily do I sleep eternity away.

Without fear or haste, on bedding made of solitude and silence.

 

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